Inside USM NT missing the 2018 World Cup

2,482 Views | 43 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by jeffk
agracer
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Not sure if this has been posted and I haven't read the whole thing yet.

https://www.theringer.com/2018/6/5/17428184/2018-world-cup-us-soccer-inside-story-jurgen-klinsmann-sunil-gulati-bruce-arena

Quote:

In October, the United States failed to qualify for the World Cup for the first time in more than 30 years. A loss to Trinidad and Tobago sealed their fate, but according to players, coaches, commentators, and executives across American soccer, the disaster doesn't come down to just one unfortunate result. No, it was the culmination of nearly a decade of mismanagement that broke the team's spirit and condemned them to failure.
gambochaman
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TOO SOON
titanmaster_race
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The "mismanagement" is still going on throughout the ranks of US soccer.
Mike Elko
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A lot of pettiness and blame in that long-winded article. Bottom line: Our best player is a teenager, and the rest of the squad is average, at best. I realize coaches set the tone, but as competitive athletes, the will to win should be obvious... The talent/heart was not present throughout qualifying. Hence, the team will be watching the WC from a couch like the rest of us.
texagbeliever
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It is also worth noting that concacaf let's field conditions be absolutely awful that negate technical prowess. Also refs screw over the USMNT. Pulisic gets mugged for 90 minutes and no yellow cards given.
AgGrad99
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AG
Interesting. I read that entire article, but Im not sure what to think.

I disliked Sunil Gulati, nearly his entire tenure. I still put most the blame at his feet. I also hate how slow he was to push this program forward, nationally...especially after the moments of excitement.

But I feel like the rest of the 'drama' written about in that article could probably be written about every team that missed the WC, and half the teams that qualified.

There will always be second guessing with tactics, player inclusions/dismissals, etc...even for some of the best teams.

It's obvious we had issues with coaches, but I'm more convinced we didnt have a concise plan from the top for several years, and it finally unraveled at the worst time.

We need to stop being reactive, and start being proactive. Iceland, of all places, should be our model. They put a plan in place, stuck to it, and are realizing the results....and they have a small fraction of the resources, and talent pool we have.
gig them
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Quote:

Iceland, of all places, should be our model. They put a plan in place, stuck to it, and are realizing the results....and they have a small fraction of the resources, and talent pool we have.

They also have a small fraction of the surface area and general population, which makes it much easier to build an airtight network of coaches and scouting networks. I love everything Iceland has done, but I'm not sure we can execute that plan on this scale.

To me, it starts with accessibility. Let's use this $100M war chest to affect positive change by no longer turning away (as many) players and coaches because they can't afford to pony up. Reduced coaching license costs and expanded player scholarships are an achievable, effective goal.
PatAg
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gig them said:

Quote:

Iceland, of all places, should be our model. They put a plan in place, stuck to it, and are realizing the results....and they have a small fraction of the resources, and talent pool we have.

They also have a small fraction of the surface area and general population, which makes it much easier to build an airtight network of coaches and scouting networks. I love everything Iceland has done, but I'm not sure we can execute that plan on this scale.

To me, it starts with accessibility. Let's use this $100M war chest to affect positive change by no longer turning away (as many) players and coaches because they can't afford to pony up. Reduced coaching license costs and expanded player scholarships are an achievable, effective goal.
Yea, I actually looked into coaching licenses a few years back. It's pretty exorbitant.
Smokedraw01
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https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/american-fiasco/id1389231303?mt=2&i=1000412960249

Give this podcast by Roger Bennet a listen. It appears(I've not finished it) to be about the mess that led to the 1998 US World Cup mess.
"If you run into an ******* in the morning, you ran into an *******. If you run into *******s all day, you're the *******." – Raylan Givens, "Justified."
Aston94
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I put this on the other thread, but it was turned into a game thread and discussion of the USSF got lost:

If USSF really wants to improve the youth development program, in my opinion they need to:

1. Provide no cost, high level instruction to all coaches at the club and rec level. Make available free instructional certifications for coaches and go out to the masses and educate.

2. Provide a scholarship for one low-income player for every select team, and require all select teams provide one low-income scholarship player on their own, so each team would have two full rides available for low income players.

You aren't going to change our system for a long time, but at least these two steps would get better coaching out there and give kids whose parents cannot afford the $2000-5000 per year for higher level play an opportunity to compete.
AgGrad99
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I understand about Iceland, but while they set this up on a smaller scale, our resources vastly outweigh theirs. And it doesn't have to cover the country coast to coast at first....at least establish a coherent plan that's modeled in key areas..and grow it from there. Right now, in the same city, you'll have multiple clubs/academies teaching completely different systems. I dont expect their results right away, but would like to see us model something similar.

I agree with you about needing more access for our top athletes. Im not sure it's sustainable for the USSF to subsidize the youth programs. In Europe the clubs do most of that. We dont have that luxury here. It's why people in Pulisic's position, being trained as early as 16 years old in their system, is such an enormous advantage. If we can't subsidize it, I wish we could start having access to their programs before 18.



AgGrad99
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AG

Quote:

2. Provide a scholarship for one low-income player for every select team, and require all select teams provide one low-income scholarship player on their own, so each team would have two full rides available for low income players.
I understand your heart..but that would personally piss me off....since it's a big financial commitment for our family, and I wouldnt qualify.

Most clubs do offer scholarships though, through fund raising, etc.

AgGrad99
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I think the #1 thing that will help grow the sport at the Youth level is growing the MLS.

The more popular that league becomes, and the more money those players get paid...the more kids will aspire to reach that level.

It's why players pay for expensive personal training and camps in football, pay out the wazoo for baseball, sign up for expensive AAU/Select clubs for basketball, etc.. Their hero plays here, on a team they root for and watch on TV...and they dream of becoming that player someday, and in turn....those kids stick with the sport, and parents pay a bunch for them to play.



Aston94
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AgGrad99 said:


Quote:

2. Provide a scholarship for one low-income player for every select team, and require all select teams provide one low-income scholarship player on their own, so each team would have two full rides available for low income players.
I understand your heart..but that would personally piss me off....since it's a big financial commitment for our family, and I wouldnt qualify.

Most clubs do offer scholarships though, through fund raising, etc.


Has nothing to do with my heart or how you feel about it. I pay for 2 girls every year in select soccer. It has to do with getting low income kids with a ton of potential into our system. We are the only country in the world where soccer is played predominately by higher income individuals, and a lot of it is our pay to play system.

You want to grow the game and get kids more involved and get better athletes? We have to get those kids whose parents cannot afford select soccer from dropping out of soccer at age 11.
AgGrad99
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I understand. Maybe I should have said 'thought process', rather than 'heart'.

I'm just not convinced giving those kids a free ride early on keeps them around. It's just not as popular as other 'American' sports. With so many options, there is nothing to guarantee they stick around. I'd rather reward those families who are dedicated to the sport, and are willing to make the commitment.

And while the demographics are different in other countries, it's not the National Federation who subsidizes the sport. I'm not sure we could financially do that.

Baseball, and basketball, are good examples to me. They cost a lot to play at high levels. But for various reasons, they still attract talent from all demos. Soccer needs that same appeal here, or it's just spinning our wheels and throwing money at the problem, instead of the solution.

Smokedraw01
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Is it time for America to start making solidarity payments?
"If you run into an ******* in the morning, you ran into an *******. If you run into *******s all day, you're the *******." – Raylan Givens, "Justified."
Aston94
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Well, as someone who coaches "those" kids and has seen many of "those" kids leave soccer due to the cost barrier, I can tell you that you are wrong. Cost should not be the determining factor in who does and does not get access to the upper levels of the sport.

Baseball is having a real struggle getting "those" kids involved, as has been evidences by the lack of African Americans and Latino Americans playing baseball, where the number of players from Latin America, where cost is not an issue they have to deal with, has continued to increase. MLB is spending large sums of money to try and get "those" kids reengaged with baseball.

Basketball's system is a lot lower cost for players, and they work hard to get "those" kids in the system.

Soccer must do something to keep "those" kids playing after age 10, and it is obvious that changing our system overnight isn't going to happen, so working within the system to help "those" kids at a high level of soccer is what it will take to move soccer from a country club sport to one that truly gets the best athletes.

AgGrad99
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Aston-

Im not sure why the quotes were necessary, since i was referencing the demographic you brought up.

I pay for 3 select leagues, and have coached in them...after growing up playing for multiple clubs myself.

I'm not talking out of ignorance, but simply disagree about how to address the issue. Discussion is good.

And basketball is not lower cost. I have a son playing in select/AAU and it's expensive. The clubs cost, the tourneys cost, the travel costs, not to mention everything that goes with it. It's very similar to select soccer. It's a sacrifice. But yes, the leagues do work hard to get lower-income players in the league. They stick with it though, because of the popularity and opportunity. A couple things those same kids wouldn't recognize if they'd played soccer.

I think the biggest difference is not that they stick with it at a certain age, but that they are simple interested in playing from an early age. We need kids to be interested at a young age. A large percentage of this country never take any interest at all...even when they're young and the costs aren't a hindrance.

jeffk
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AgGrad99 said:

I think the #1 thing that will help grow the sport at the Youth level is growing the MLS.

The more popular that league becomes, and the more money those players get paid...the more kids will aspire to reach that level.

It's why players pay for expensive personal training and camps in football, pay out the wazoo for baseball, sign up for expensive AAU/Select clubs for basketball, etc.. Their hero plays here, on a team they root for and watch on TV...and they dream of becoming that player someday, and in turn....those kids stick with the sport, and parents pay a bunch for them to play.


Maybe it's just me, but I absolutely hate the club baseball/softball/volleyball/AAU hoops model and hope to God something can be done to keep soccer from getting stuck in that place long term.
AgGrad99
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Im with ya. I dislike it as well.

Just pointing that the popularity of those sports help over-ride obstacles that come with pay-for-play, and play a role in getting kids into them initially. I do think that is an issue, just not the only issue.
fig96
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I do think the Earnie Stewart hire is a great step in the right direction. The man has a resume.

U.S. Soccer Hires Earnie Stewart as National Team General Manager
Aston94
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I agree that discussion is great, but you saying that helping those kids is wrong because you have to pay the cost just shows, to me, a lack of appreciation for the state of US Soccer.

Having a system in place where only wealthy kids can get into the higher level leagues is not good for the long term viability of the sport. Your interest seemed more based on your own pocket book and not the health of the sport as a whole.

Most clubs already give out at least one scholarship per team. My proposal would make it mandatory, and would allow USSF to pitch in a scholarship as well. Between USSF and MLS (which should really want more low-income kids involved) funding this would be relatively simple. I would estimate the cost to be $10-15M per year for a nationwide program.

Like I said earlier, USSF has to find some ways to make soccer more accessible to all.
agracer
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AG
Aston94 said:

AgGrad99 said:


Quote:

2. Provide a scholarship for one low-income player for every select team, and require all select teams provide one low-income scholarship player on their own, so each team would have two full rides available for low income players.
I understand your heart..but that would personally piss me off....since it's a big financial commitment for our family, and I wouldnt qualify.

Most clubs do offer scholarships though, through fund raising, etc.


Has nothing to do with my heart or how you feel about it. I pay for 2 girls every year in select soccer. It has to do with getting low income kids with a ton of potential into our system. We are the only country in the world where soccer is played predominately by higher income individuals, and a lot of it is our pay to play system.

You want to grow the game and get kids more involved and get better athletes? We have to get those kids whose parents cannot afford select soccer from dropping out of soccer at age 11.
Don't academy teams already cover most if not all costs for players including uniforms, coaches fees, etc? Our club is that way.

Most select clubs already have scholarships available. IMO there no need for every team to have 2 scholarships available for low income players. The U11 division 6 team comprised of kids who can barely dribble a ball and run at the same time does not need to be providing scholarships for low income players. Not to mention inner city youth are not attracted to soccer at all as AAU BB dominates their life.

The US cannot look at EU and say "they don't pay for soccer like we do"...well no kidding. The EU is not the US. We also have football, BB and Baseball to distract our kids. If soccer and BB were the only two sports that dominated 95% of our culture, their would be plenty of money available for everyone. But that is simply not reality right now in the US. Last time I looked, despite all their troubles the NFL and NCAA FB dominate the money flow to sports in this country (and I'm sure BB is up there as well).

How exactly do you decide who gets those scholarships? Do you really trust US Soccer and all its politics to dole out the money to those who deserve it the most? I see a USDA 'reduced lunch' program in action here where 50% of the beneficiaries are committing fraud to qualify and you're not really helping anyone at the end of the day.

I do agree we need to find a way to get the best athletes interested in soccer. But I do not believe handing out scholarships is going to solve that problem.

EDIT: just to add, again, not saying scholarships are bad, but at it's core, if you want kids interested in playing soccer, you need to get them interested at an early age with marketing and creating a larger appeal to those families. Right now inner city kids could care less about soccer. No one is bringing it to them like the NBA does so why should they care? Regardless of the cost, soccer does not appeal to them at all.
jeffk
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Yes, academy teams are supposed to be free for players. The pricing-out of a lot of youth talent happens before the academy levels though.
AgGrad99
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Quote:

I agree that discussion is great, but you saying that helping those kids is wrong because you have to pay the cost just shows, to me, a lack of appreciation for the state of US Soccer.

No. I dont have a lack of appreciation for US Soccer. Im sorry that's all you took from my posts. It certainly wasn't my point (Just a personal complaint I'd have).

I understand what you're trying to accomplish. I dont necessarily disagree with you. Im saying in and of itself, I don't think it solves the problem. Accessibility is one component...but you still need to increase the popularity of the sport at a younger age, or you're just sending that money to the players already in the talent pool.

I look at our club team now, and I know a couple kids who would currently benefit, and likely be awarded the scholarship on our team. But that doesnt increase the talent pool. And I see that being a common scenario if additional scholarships are awarded.

Do you tie the funds to new players? Players under a certain age who haven't played soccer previously? But those aren't players joining Academies typically.

Maybe establish no/low cost USSF sponsored rec leagues, and identify players who are deserving of a scholarship if they continue to the next level? Something like that would work well I think.

AgGrad99
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Quote:

Don't academy teams already cover most if not all costs for players including uniforms, coaches fees, etc? Our club is that way.
fOurs has a small fee, but it's for an entire year. It's much cheaper than most all other sports. You can't play YMCA flag football for cheaper.
carl spacklers hat
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How many of you all know the cost per player for a DA or ECNL roster spot, including training fees, uniforms, and most importantly, TRAVEL? Looking at our club, travel for the 2018/19 year (DA) is going to be in the neighborhood of $5,000.00, per player, playing in the Frontier Division. Oh, and you are required to use US Soccer's travel partner, Anthony Travel, so your club can't go outside that system to find more economical ways of getting to and from out of town matches. Throw in the rest of the costs and you're between $6,500 and $7,500 per player per year. Find me kids coming from homes with a gross household income of $35k who can afford that. ****, find me kids from households making $50k who can really afford that kind of expense. That HAS to be solved for if the US is going to make any long-term inroads at the international level.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Transfer Fees as a potential revenue generator to youth clubs to help defray the expense of running top-level programs (again, DA and/or ECNL). MLS does not adhere to FIFA's Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players (RSTP) that stipulate solidarity payments -- and U.S. Soccer does not enforce RSTP, thus leaving youth clubs that have developed professional players out in the cold, while their European and South American counterparts take full advantage of the windfalls that can be generated when a former youth club player makes it in the professional ranks.
Aston94
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We have to work on access to the system. Since as Americans we seem hell bent on paying high dollar for kids sports then I think USSF has to find a way to work in that system.

My solution number 1 is to provide coaching instruction at a much, much lower cost. Lord only knows how many kids walk away from the game each year because their coach has no idea what they are doing.

Solution number 2 is to get more kids into the current system. I would love to blow up and restart, but that isn't realistic.

I know there are holes in a one sentence suggestion (who determines, what players, etc.) to work out, but the basic idea is to get more low-income kids playing at the higher levels. That's all.

The sport is very popular with youth in all demographics. U5-U8 numbers aren't the issue. The problem is losing them to other sports at the 10-11 year old age. To the extent cost is the reason then I hope we can overcome that.
Matilda
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Is there anything we can borrow from other systems? How did Lebron and Kylie play/pay for AAU? Or if we can't do that what about Dirk and porizinkis?
DeangeloVickers
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Our Academy is a decent price for the whole year and our group worked very hard to pick some talent out of the rec leagues to give scholarships to
JJxvi
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Matilda said:

Is there anything we can borrow from other systems? How did Lebron and Kylie play/pay for AAU? Or if we can't do that what about Dirk and porizinkis?


A shoe company paid for it, probably
jeffk
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Yeah, the do it like AAU does might be an effective strategy as long as none of the kids involved go to college.
rfvgy12
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We need to solve multiple issues:

Balance Skill training and tactical knowledge.
My kids teams would work on individual skills but in a game could not pull high line and compact the midfield. They would get smoked by less skilled teams because they did not play within the system. Eventually, kids get tired of losing.

Rich kids only:
2G per year to play plus travel. Get out of here.

Coaching value:

I could hand pick team of poor kids and smoke our select teams. My 10 year old kids digressed when I stopped coaching them
DallasAggie97
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What types of alternative leagues are there? We just lost a USA youth player to Mexico. I read that he played in a Latin league for youth soccer. Are those lower cost? Are the teams better?

It seems strange that we don't have more Latino players on our USMNT.
jeffk
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A lot of the Mexican clubs also have partnerships with youth teams in the States and recruit/scout players regularly. From my limited experience, their youth clubs are slightly less expensive but also don't play in some of the larger national tournaments that the American academy-level teams do. That said, the few I've interacted with have had really good coaches (not licensed or trained through USSF necessarily, but still very knowledgeable) and boasted some really talented players and teams.
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