Josh asks all the questions we want answers to about college officiating.

AWP 97 said:

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Meximan said:

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Literally nobody is happy with the state of officiating, particularly not SEC officiating. These guys need to be full time conference employees getting a cool $80k to $120k or whatever and do nothing but train and study and watch tape of teams so they know how they play before they see them, so they know what to let go and what to actually focus on. There's far too much "A&M has a history of targeting so let's just call every big hit a target and go from there" going on.

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I'm confused by your post. You say that the officials should get to know what to expect from each team and then you complain that the officials know a team too well. Wouldn't it be better for officials to just watch a game and call what they see without any preconceived thoughts?

However, I do agree that officials should be full time.

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I think the point is understand how teams play within the rules. If you just see something out of the corner of your eye you might think it's holding but it's not. A Big 12 official interviewed years ago talked about how if you weren't watching closely you would throw a flag on Jeff Fuller for holding but if you watch he was just really strong and good at run blocking. You could also know if defensive backs are more likely to grab off the line, at 5 yards, at 7 yards, etc.

Hire physically fit young men 30-45 years of age who are properly trained instead of the overweight insurance salesmen in their fifties who can't run or see very well. Also, you're never allowed to work a game where you or any of your relatives attended. There is no way I could honestly call an Aggie game.

Could you call a tu game?

How far could this be taken?

I would think anyone with integrity would not be influenced by where their relatives went to school.

AggieDub04 said:

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AWP 97 said:

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Meximan said:

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Literally nobody is happy with the state of officiating, particularly not SEC officiating. These guys need to be full time conference employees getting a cool $80k to $120k or whatever and do nothing but train and study and watch tape of teams so they know how they play before they see them, so they know what to let go and what to actually focus on. There's far too much "A&M has a history of targeting so let's just call every big hit a target and go from there" going on.

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I'm confused by your post. You say that the officials should get to know what to expect from each team and then you complain that the officials know a team too well. Wouldn't it be better for officials to just watch a game and call what they see without any preconceived thoughts?

However, I do agree that officials should be full time.

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I think the point is understand how teams play within the rules. If you just see something out of the corner of your eye you might think it's holding but it's not. A Big 12 official interviewed years ago talked about how if you weren't watching closely you would throw a flag on Jeff Fuller for holding but if you watch he was just really strong and good at run blocking. You could also know if defensive backs are more likely to grab off the line, at 5 yards, at 7 yards, etc.

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My biggest issue with this is they likely need to change the holding rule because as is holding could be called every single play which turns it into being called when an official feels like throwing the flag...causing huge swings in games sometimes. Never fails the flag seems to come out to negate a huge play.

I agree with Pate that a microchip could eliminate the need for first down markers after the ball is set by the official. Keep it to assist fans and coaches at the game to see where 1st down marker is approximately, but that is an unnecessary stoppage.

I disagree that the microchip could be used to actually spot the ball though. He mentions the difficulty with the forward progress, but there are plenty of times when a player's knee is down but the player falls forward afterwards. At this point, P5 could afford to do it, but D2 or D3 leagues could not (although that should not be the reason).

And I completely agree with him that the enforcement of targeting is horrible.

He may want "answers" from officials after the game, but I don't think there is a great benefit.

He doesn't touch on this, but college football official that bets on games is a huge risk. Not necessarily at the SEC level, but gambling winning at a Sun Belt or MAC game still count as a win.

Iowaggie said:

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I agree with Pate that a microchip could eliminate the need for first down markers after the ball is set by the official. Keep it to assist fans and coaches at the game to see where 1st down marker is approximately, but that is an unnecessary stoppage.

I disagree that the microchip could be used to actually spot the ball though. He mentions the difficulty with the forward progress, but there are plenty of times when a player's knee is down but the player falls forward afterwards. At this point, P5 could afford to do it, but D2 or D3 leagues could not (although that should not be the reason).

And I completely agree with him that the enforcement of targeting is horrible.

He may want "answers" from officials after the game, but I don't think there is a great benefit.

He doesn't touch on this, but college football official that bets on games is a huge risk. Not necessarily at the SEC level, but gambling winning at a Sun Belt or MAC game still count as a win.

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I'd also like to see a stop to centers coming to the line and moving the ball forward 6 inches when they grab it. Seems like a lot of 3rd/4th and inches get picked up by the center before they even snap it. Maybe a microchip could end that.

Stone44 said:

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Hire physically fit young men 30-45 years of age who are properly trained instead of the overweight insurance salesmen in their fifties who can't run or see very well. Also, you're never allowed to work a game where you or any of your relatives attended. There is no way I could honestly call an Aggie game.

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This is complete ignorance on your part about how this works. These refs get experience like players working through the ranks of high school and up through the ranks of college.

A ref I know personally, who made it to the top tier HS football had to quit because his real job was too demanding and he didn't have the time to indulge in the thankless and essentially unpaid labor (by professional standards) of refing HS sports.

What you are suggesting is that we completely throw that experience and training in the garbage so we have refs who don't have belly fat but have no experience. Sounds like a perfectly reasoned plan with zero chance of failure. Also most refs I know are extremely fit and would run circles around the average HS kid.

In the old days, football refs did it as part time gig and often had very good jobs. I remember reading about one ref being asked about being paid off, he said he make more money the the school President.

We are asking much more of officials now than before. The pipeline is drying up, as it is becoming harder and harder to get refs, especially for sub varsity games. Maybe the major conferences should work with local official groups by helping with training and reward upcoming refs.

Pate is right that it's past time football used technology to make forward progress and spotting the ball more predictable and precise. It would be helpful if something could take this burden off refs especially with today's hurry up offenses.

Regarding accountability, I'm confident Pate would **** his britches if he ever had to call a HS game, much less a big time P5 game.

rootube said:

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Stone44 said:

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Hire physically fit young men 30-45 years of age who are properly trained instead of the overweight insurance salesmen in their fifties who can't run or see very well. Also, you're never allowed to work a game where you or any of your relatives attended. There is no way I could honestly call an Aggie game.

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This is complete ignorance on your part about how this works. These refs get experience like players working through the ranks of high school and up through the ranks of college.

A ref I know personally, who made it to the top tier HS football had to quit because his real job was too demanding and he didn't have the time to indulge in the thankless and essentially unpaid labor (by professional standards) of refing HS sports.

What you are suggesting is that we completely throw that experience and training in the garbage so we have refs who don't have belly fat but have no experience. Sounds like a perfectly reasoned plan with zero chance of failure. Also most refs I know are extremely fit and would run circles around the average HS kid.

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And this is why it isn't likely to have full time officials. While these guys are working their way up and getting officiating experience, most are doing the same in their career. So most these guys at the top level of college football are working full time, so I don't think it makes financial sense on their part to quit that for $100K/year to be an official, knowing you might lose your job after any given week, and it doesn't make financial sense on the conference end to offer 50 refs, $250K for working those games.

It makes more financial sense on the SEC's part to offer the most money for the best officials to work their games.

It makes the most sense from an integrity standpoint for the P5 conferences to have a pool of officials that is available to work any game so that there is no incentive for an SEC (or B12 or whatever) official to have any appearance of favoritism to a potential playoff bound team near the end of the season.

I honestly don't believe the conspiracy theorists who claim there is rampant favoritism happening. I think there are bad calls but that is going to happen in any system where a human being is involved. No amount of salary or training is going to change that fact.

The essential problem is that the average fan -- at least the part of their brain that makes purchase decisions -- doesn't care about fair officiating. They really only care about the emotional aspects of football that heighten its entertainment value (really, immersivity of the escape from reality). The NBA, NFL, WWE, and, of course, FIFA, have been using this for decades to amp up their profits.

College football has historically been more tethered to fairness in officiating, except near the upper tiers, as Aggie fans know all too well. But the NIL era is changing this.

If you want to change the picture here, don't propose solutions, and don't try to lobby the NCAA or conference leadership. What is needed instead is educating the fans and getting them to believe that bad officiation is not "just part of the game," but rather something that degenerates their beloved sport into a thinly veiled copy of professional wrestling.

Fatboy Thaddeus said:

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The essential problem is that the average fan -- at least the part of their brain that makes purchase decisions -- doesn't care about fair officiating. They really only care about the emotional aspects of football that heighten its entertainment value (really, immersivity of the escape from reality). The NBA, NFL, WWE, and, of course, FIFA, have been using this for decades to amp up their profits.

College football has historically been more tethered to fairness in officiating, except near the upper tiers, as Aggie fans know all too well. But the NIL era is changing this.

If you want to change the picture here, don't propose solutions, and don't try to lobby the NCAA or conference leadership. What is needed instead is educating the fans and getting them to believe that bad officiation is not "just part of the game," but rather something that degenerates their beloved sport into a thinly veiled copy of professional wrestling.

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The real problem is the "average fan" doesn't understand even the basics of the actual rules of HS or college football. Despite this fact, the average fan is perfectly comfortable shouting criticism from behind their veil of ignorance. I'm a little curious how NIL is involved with the downfall of officiating. Would love to hear your reasoning around this link.

NyAggie said:

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Meximan said:

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Literally nobody is happy with the state of officiating, particularly not SEC officiating. These guys need to be full time conference employees getting a cool $80k to $120k or whatever and do nothing but train and study and watch tape of teams so they know how they play before they see them, so they know what to let go and what to actually focus on. There's far too much "A&M has a history of targeting so let's just call every big hit a target and go from there" going on.

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these guys need to be full time employees, however NOT employees of any conference.

There needs to be a national pool of officials and they get sent all over the country to different conferences, and any official that graduated from a school cannot ref a game involving that school or ref a game in the conference that that school is in.

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How would nationalizing the refs improve anything?

Most rules and therefore officiating is not complicated. The one major problem I see is PI and OPI. It needs to be very clear about push offs and hands to the body prior to ball arrival. Officials really blow this call.

montanagriz said:

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Well the tu fan that called the 15 yard penalty on our safety Hunter cost us last sip game

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You think tu fan refs have integrity?

Nope. That's the point

12thMan9 said:

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Could you call a tu game?

How far could this be taken?

I would think anyone with integrity would not be influenced by where their relatives went to school.

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I couldn't. It would be like that game in Remember the Titans when the evil white refs are throwing a flag on every play.

Azariah said:

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NyAggie said:

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Meximan said:

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Literally nobody is happy with the state of officiating, particularly not SEC officiating. These guys need to be full time conference employees getting a cool $80k to $120k or whatever and do nothing but train and study and watch tape of teams so they know how they play before they see them, so they know what to let go and what to actually focus on. There's far too much "A&M has a history of targeting so let's just call every big hit a target and go from there" going on.

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these guys need to be full time employees, however NOT employees of any conference.

There needs to be a national pool of officials and they get sent all over the country to different conferences, and any official that graduated from a school cannot ref a game involving that school or ref a game in the conference that that school is in.

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How would nationalizing the refs improve anything?

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Remove any bias by conferences to have certain teams win games

It's believed by a lot of folks, true or not, that teams in contention for playoff spots gets the benefit of the calls so that those teams make it in and the league gets more money

You also have people believing that since the sec office hs in Birmingham, sec officials are bias towards bama

Just removes any of that

NyAggie said:

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Azariah said:

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NyAggie said:

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Meximan said:

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Literally nobody is happy with the state of officiating, particularly not SEC officiating. These guys need to be full time conference employees getting a cool $80k to $120k or whatever and do nothing but train and study and watch tape of teams so they know how they play before they see them, so they know what to let go and what to actually focus on. There's far too much "A&M has a history of targeting so let's just call every big hit a target and go from there" going on.

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these guys need to be full time employees, however NOT employees of any conference.

There needs to be a national pool of officials and they get sent all over the country to different conferences, and any official that graduated from a school cannot ref a game involving that school or ref a game in the conference that that school is in.

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How would nationalizing the refs improve anything?

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Remove any bias by conferences to have certain teams win games

It's believed by a lot of folks, true or not, that teams in contention for playoff spots gets the benefit of the calls so that those teams make it in and the league gets more money

You also have people believing that since the sec office hs in Birmingham, sec officials are bias towards bama

Just removes any of that

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Many people believe the earth is flat, that doesn't mean we need to create a NASA task force to investigate.

rootube said:

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I honestly don't believe the conspiracy theorists who claim there is rampant favoritism happening. I think there are bad calls but that is going to happen in any system where a human being is involved. No amount of salary or training is going to change that fact.

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It is not rampant favoritism it is select favoritism
"Better" programs have "Better" players
"Better" players get a no call on close plays

Really bad on college basketball better programs get a reputation for tough D and imo it is just the better programs get a lot of no calls that allows them to play tough D. Lesser programs end up with guys on the bench for picking up 2 fouls on the opening 5 minutes

Here is the issue-
In each game, there will be a winner and the team that got screwed by the officials.
This is never going to change.
There are bad calls and horrible calls. Just like there are fumbles, dropped passes and other mistakes by the players and stupid calls/coaching decisions by coaches.
There is the human factor involved.
The good news they are short officials and anyone of you guys can try it and see how hard it is. You should be able to move up the ladder pretty fast!
By the way, I am not a football official.

Can't stand the targeting rule. Players being ejected from the game is beyond silly. Should an O lineman that does a cut block also be ejected?

Also can not stand unlimited booth reviews. Wish it was like the pros and only reviewed if challenged.

I think I'm over replay. On the whole, it doesn't fix all of the bad calls and it draws the games out longer. But, my biggest problem with it is that decisions are made by persons in places we cannot see: the replay booth, Birmingham (SEC), Toronto (NHL), New York City (NHL), etc. We can see and identify the on-field officials, and we can even observe a bit of their discussions. My wish is that referees would be mic'd up the way the XFL did it. Let us hear their discussions; make everything as transparent as possible.

Sq 17 said:

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rootube said:

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I honestly don't believe the conspiracy theorists who claim there is rampant favoritism happening. I think there are bad calls but that is going to happen in any system where a human being is involved. No amount of salary or training is going to change that fact.

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It is not rampant favoritism it is select favoritism
"Better" programs have "Better" players
"Better" players get a no call on close plays

Really bad on college basketball better programs get a reputation for tough D and imo it is just the better programs get a lot of no calls that allows them to play tough D. Lesser programs end up with guys on the bench for picking up 2 fouls on the opening 5 minutes

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this.

GrapevineAg said:

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I think I'm over replay. On the whole, it doesn't fix all of the bad calls and it draws the games out longer. But, my biggest problem with it is that decisions are made by persons in places we cannot see: the replay booth, Birmingham (SEC), Toronto (NHL), New York City (NHL), etc. We can see and identify the on-field officials, and we can even observe a bit of their discussions. My wish is that referees would be mic'd up the way the XFL did it. Let us hear their discussions; make everything as transparent as possible.

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the way replay is done in college is very clumsy, however if you think there is getting screwed by the officials now just imagine all the horrible calls that can't get overturned because there is no replay.

and maybe it's a double-edged sword: Refs don't feel like they need to be as accurate when they make calls because they know that replay is there to get it right?

maybe if there was no replacy they'd be better at their jobs, but I don't think so. I just remember all the horrible calls back in the pre-replay days and everyone screaming they need to use replay to fix this.

ias basd as it is now, t was REALLY bad back then

NyAggie said:

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GrapevineAg said:

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I think I'm over replay. On the whole, it doesn't fix all of the bad calls and it draws the games out longer. But, my biggest problem with it is that decisions are made by persons in places we cannot see: the replay booth, Birmingham (SEC), Toronto (NHL), New York City (NHL), etc. We can see and identify the on-field officials, and we can even observe a bit of their discussions. My wish is that referees would be mic'd up the way the XFL did it. Let us hear their discussions; make everything as transparent as possible.

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the way replay is done in college is very clumsy, however if you think there is getting screwed by the officials now just imagine all the horrible calls that can't get overturned because there is no replay.

and maybe it's a double-edged sword: Refs don't feel like they need to be as accurate when they make calls because they know that replay is there to get it right?

maybe if there was no replacy they'd be better at their jobs, but I don't think so. I just remember all the horrible calls back in the pre-replay days and everyone screaming they need to use replay to fix this.

ias basd as it is now, t was REALLY bad back then

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I'm old enough to remember. '89 vs Arky at Kyle when the former Arkansas letterman called a crucial PI against us comes to mind, along with some horrible game-deciding calls in Lubbock.

Teams are still getting screwed by calls, but now many of those calls are being made in the replay rooms that we cannot see. A "catch" is still so subjective that a replay official can decide a game. Same with targeting. I don't think the 'juice is worth the squeeze' with replay: they still get calls wrong, and it ruins the flow of games.

GrapevineAg said:

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NyAggie said:

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GrapevineAg said:

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I think I'm over replay. On the whole, it doesn't fix all of the bad calls and it draws the games out longer. But, my biggest problem with it is that decisions are made by persons in places we cannot see: the replay booth, Birmingham (SEC), Toronto (NHL), New York City (NHL), etc. We can see and identify the on-field officials, and we can even observe a bit of their discussions. My wish is that referees would be mic'd up the way the XFL did it. Let us hear their discussions; make everything as transparent as possible.

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the way replay is done in college is very clumsy, however if you think there is getting screwed by the officials now just imagine all the horrible calls that can't get overturned because there is no replay.

and maybe it's a double-edged sword: Refs don't feel like they need to be as accurate when they make calls because they know that replay is there to get it right?

maybe if there was no replacy they'd be better at their jobs, but I don't think so. I just remember all the horrible calls back in the pre-replay days and everyone screaming they need to use replay to fix this.

ias basd as it is now, t was REALLY bad back then

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I'm old enough to remember. '89 vs Arky at Kyle when the former Arkansas letterman called a crucial PI against us comes to mind, along with some horrible game-deciding calls in Lubbock.

Teams are still getting screwed by calls, but now many of those calls are being made in the replay rooms that we cannot see. A "catch" is still so subjective that a replay official can decide a game. Same with targeting. I don't think the 'juice is worth the squeeze' with replay: they still get calls wrong, and it ruins the flow of games.

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I agree with a lot of that, but I still think it's worth it to get the turnovers and scoring plays correct.

the thing that college should do away with is having every single play subject to review.

there should be 2 challenges per team, and if you win them you get another one.

then, only plays that directly result in a turnover, a score or a first down should be reviewed automatically, as well as any plays within the last 4 minutes of the game.