MaxPower said:

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So what is the criteria we are using then? I can find plenty of nobodies ......Why not Neal Brown at Troy or Calhoun from Air Firce?

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Perhaps you can tell us about their high school coaching background that would be a phenomenal asset in Texas and LA recruiting (and everywhere), or their ties to A&M's talent region, or their numerous recruiting awards as best in nation, or their extensive SEC experience, or their coaching in the NCAA championship game, or their years at one of the premiere college football programs and how that program feels about them.

Please, feel free.... i suspect he's a "nobody" to you because you're ignorant of who he is. That's fine, but you look foolish proclaiming that to many familiar with SEC football. There's plenty of stuff out there on this remarkable man and I'd encourage you or any interested to google it.

"SEC experience" is overrated. Coaches bounce around a ton, so I can promise you that just about any coach in college football has worked extensively with coaches who've spent a lot of time in the SEC. In other words, we aren't doing anything new in the SEC that they haven't been exposed to somewhere along the way.

ffco said:

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"You have to stand up (and be accountable) and he did that," Wilson said. "But some things weren't all his fault. On the interception (for a touchdown) the ball was under-thrown, but he was under pressure. If the guy gets blocked, Bryce is able to step into that throw and complete it. And the receiver needs to come back for the ball."

Seems like such a simple thing, but when a coach can convey the interconnectivity in success and failure without being worried about hurting feelings...that's a good sign.

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if Sumlin had said this quote this very board would be ripping him for throwing the OL and WR under the bus. Why didn't he accept the accountability. This is all the coaches fault, right? In fact it has been alluded to many times on this board re; Sumlin throwing the OL and WR under the bus and not accepting the responsibility of their poor performance.

You can't promise that. Just hire Frank Wilson and be done with it. Dude is the GOAT!

Deputy Travis Junior said:

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"SEC experience" is overrated. Coaches bounce around a ton, so I can promise you that just about any coach in college football has worked extensively with coaches who've spent a lot of time in the SEC. In other words, we aren't doing anything new in the SEC that they haven't been exposed to somewhere along the way.

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Yep. Saban & Meyer had 0 prior SEC experience when they won Nattys at LSU & Florida.

Because the way you say it is "We need to re-emphasize WRs coming back to the ball" and "We need to reemphasize blitz pick-up"

BTW, WRs coming back to the ball is a basic, fundamental F-up. Watching the WRs is an easy way to get an idea of what kind of program a coach runs.

I can deal with coaches calling out skill position players for lazy or selfish play.

If the unblocked defender was a blitz that the RB should have picked up, I have no problem saying so. A lot of great ball-carriers are lousy pass protectors because they are selfish and unwilling to take pain to help someone else achieve. Now if it was an honest mistake like a blown blocking assignment, you probably let it go.

Where I have a problem is when a coach calls out offensive linemen, especially young ones. OL gets very little glory. They take the most pain. You dont call them out like Sumlin has. IF sumlin would have recruited less thugier or developed talent better, we would not be having to force young OL before they are ready.

The bigger question is why a rising star went to UTSA?

He has never been an OC. He was the recruiting coordinator at a big program. The next step in his development should have been showing he could run an offense. Why did he not seek an OC position with an established program?

Sumlin had a similiar path- he called plays for half a season in 2002. He got hired at ou to recruit. He spun that into the UH job, where he got lucky with his OC hires. Then he came here where SEC coaches with inferior talent eat his lunch.

Agsuffering@bulaw said:

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The bigger question is why a rising star went to UTSA?

He has never been an OC. He was the recruiting coordinator at a big program. The next step in his development should have been showing he could run an offense. Why did he not seek an OC position with an established program?

Sumlin had a similiar path- he called plays for half a season in 2002. He got hired at ou to recruit. He spun that into the UH job, where he got lucky with his OC hires. Then he came here where SEC coaches with inferior talent eat his lunch.

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UTSA is an infant program, they needed to take a risk. Much like they hired Larry Coker to start their program.

Chosen One said:

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Here are my thoughts on Frank Wilson.

1. He is an improvement over Kevin Sumlin.

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Simply put. No. I'm not trying to insult Wilson, I think that he has the potential to be a great coach for a P5 conference team...but he's not there yet. Wilson has not won a Cotton Bowl, Chick-Fil-A Bowl, or any bowl yet for that matter. (Yes, JFF, KK, I know...). For the record I think Wilson will get there, eventually. But even IF (and its a big if) Wilson runs the table at UTSA this year, he still has more to prove.

The problem with the "Frank Wilson" way of thinking is a perception of ourselves as a school asking for the scraps at the coaching table. I get that we are frustrated with Sumlin, and that this should likely be his last season here (barring finishing undefeated with a bowl win). But for the money, resources, and capabilities that this university has, we should not be caught bargain hunting in CUSA for a coach. We should be shopping for a well aged steak, not ground beef for sloppy joe's

Agsuffering@bulaw said:

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The bigger question is why a rising star went to UTSA?

He has never been an OC. He was the recruiting coordinator at a big program. The next step in his development should have been showing he could run an offense. Why did he not seek an OC position with an established program?.

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Two points of response:

a) the even bigger Q is why UTSA chose him when there are plenty of coaches with OC and DC experience that would jump at the chance to coach a mid major.

b). UTSA is an up and comer situated in a fantastic football geography. Coker did a great job getting it off the ground. Do you know how many good coaches are out there with OC or DC experience chomping at the bit for a million dollar HC gig at a D1 (fbs) school?

These opportunities do NOT come up that often in any coach's life. In any given year there are maybe 10 such openings versus literally hundreds of coaches that would love to fill them.

I'm surprised by your puzzlement on both counts- that UTSA would want FW and that FW would want UTSA.

You do realize that UTSA is most likely not FW's dream retirement job, right? If he does a great job there, he'll be writing his own check soon due to that and his background. he knows that- its called the fast track and he had the confidence to hop on and succeed.

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You do realize that UTSA is most likely not FW's dream retirement job, right?

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Thanks Jack Handy for that deep thought! I get why UTSA hired him. CUSA programs rarely have the luxury of hiring complete coaches. They figured a recruiter could out-athlete the opposition.

My point was that if Wilson really wanted to develop himself as a coach, he should have gone to work for a great offensive HC as a play-caller. That was the week area of his resume.

If his goal was to become a HC at an 80k Stadium program, addressing his weakness would have set him up for longer term success.

It just feels like he took a shortcut. I see a red flag.

i see. i'm not sure that DC or OC status is a particular necessity, especially if you are a good leader and manager.
He was an assistant HC at LSU and took on a wide variety of managerial positions (disciplinariy liaison, alumni relations...)

i think he knows he was ready and not taking a shortcut but rather taking the next big step. We'll see how he does. my guess is we'll go Durkin if we maje a change.

He might have been ready, but it is a red flag.

Alumni relations and discipline liasons is squaw work. Anybody motivated should be able to do that. Assistant HC is a title they give you to sweaten the deal. It means nothing other than resume fluff to some HR idiot who does not understand the industry. The Coordinator on the other side of the ball from the HC is usually the most powerful assistant.

A lot of coaches who cannot actally coach rise on their ability to recruit and make a good impression.To succeed at a real program, a HC must know his stuff, even if just to supervise others. The best test of that is as a coordinator.

Since 1998, only a few coaches have been promoted to HC at major programs without having first been a real coordinator (who calls plays). The ones that come to mind:

-Sumlin
-Luke Fickell
-Karl Dorrell
-Ed Orgeron
-Derek Dooley
-Ty Willingham
-John Blake
-Dabo (the one genuine article)

Dabo is a remarkable outlier. Wilson could truly know his stuff. But the gaping hole in his resume is a red flag. The only thing that would satisfy me would be either Wilson sustaining high level success at UTSA (maybe back-back dominating seasons in CUSA) or he takes a job at another p5 program and either turns it around or sustains success.

Wilson is just another recruiter until he proves otherwise. Out-athleting bad CUSA programs proves nothing.

Agsuffering@bulaw said:

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Since 1998, only a few coaches have been promoted to HC at major programs without having first been a real coordinator (who calls plays). The ones that come to mind:

-Sumlin
-Luke Fickell
-Karl Dorrell
-Ed Orgeron
-Derek Dooley
-Ty Willingham
-John Blake
-Dabo (the one genuine article)

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I'm confused by this, a majority of those names you listed have been coordinators at major programs before becoming a HC? Am I understanding this wrong?

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It's likely the BMA's are going to go after someone more "proven", but OP's sentiment is correct, he's going to be at a P5 in very short order, and he's going to be tremendous.

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Bookmarking this.

Agsuffering@bulaw said:

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The bigger question is why a rising star went to UTSA?

He has never been an OC. He was the recruiting coordinator at a big program. The next step in his development should have been showing he could run an offense. Why did he not seek an OC position with an established program?

Sumlin had a similiar path- he called plays for half a season in 2002. He got hired at ou to recruit. He spun that into the UH job, where he got lucky with his OC hires. Then he came here where SEC coaches with inferior talent eat his lunch.

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Because you don't turn down the opportunity to be a head coach in exchange for a coordinator position, can't believe that is something that is being discussed to be honest.

Once you attain the title of Head Football Coach, even if you suck at it, you are somehow always in the discussion for another coaching gig. That world is inbred as it can be and they trade one another around like baseball cards. It's as much about getting the title for future consideration as it is anything. If you can do so by skipping the coordinator route, then you have leaped over a whole lot of other folks.

Just accept the fact that whomever takes over after Sumlin is gone - you are not going to be happy. If it's an established coach, you'll scream that he's gotten fat and lazy and lost his fire after the first loss and we overpaid. If it's an up and comer, you'll scream that he doesn't have the experience to captain a ship with the stature of Texas A&M and will salivate at every opportunity to scream "I TOLD YOU SO!!!" after a loss or a close game or whatever. If it's somebody that has ties somehow to A&M, you'll scream that we are too worried about "getting" A&M and that shouldn't be a consideration. No matter what, there will be an issue. It's the law of football.

You can't sell Morris over Wilson.

Wow resume really!! Stops at Ole Miss, Tennessee and Asst HC at LSU vs. a guy with stops at Tulsa, Clemson (before they got to where they are now) and SMU.. when you put it like that I see your point

If experience is your biggest criteria, then Wilson isn't your guy. I'd suspect most OC / DCs aren't what you would want to look for either.

If you want a successful HC that is ready to step in and win then you also better be ready to pay for him. Minimum for stepping into an SEC West school will likely be 3 to 5 million over 5 years guaranteed.

If you want to roll the dice and take a gamble then you are looking at a guy like Wilson or an OC / DC like Oklahoma did with their last two head coaching hires.

I believe fortune favors the bold, and going out on a limb for a guy like Wilson is a bold move that will pay huge dividends if he is successful.

Agbu gets it

I don't particularly care if a candidate was a coordinator or not and I can't imagine why someone else would. Being a head coach is so much different than those jobs anyway.

rbcs_2 said:

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I don't particularly care if a candidate was a coordinator or not and I can't imagine why someone else would. Being a head coach is so much different than those jobs anyway.

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This. What FE appears to be great at is communication and organization- i would put those above almost any two skillsets for a HC. Great communicators are good at listening, observing, and providing feedback.

FW can hire good OCs and DCs to implement his vision.

AgSuffering's point is well taken- a HC does need a deep understanding of offensive and defensive coordination, and that is the usual progression. We'll see how FW handles it all.

All those I listed were never offensive nor defensive coordinators before, and I was wrong on the 1998 date. I think Blake was hired a year or 2 before.

All are failed HCs except Dabo. Coach O could conceiveably redeem himself, but I would bet against it.

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Once you attain the title of Head Football Coach, even if you suck at it, you are somehow always in the discussion for another coaching gig.

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In the NFL, yes. At upper college levels, not for another HC job.

I went back and looked at HC hires among 80k+ stadium programs (as of 2017) starting in 1998, (this time 1998 is correct).

The following were outside hires by by an 80k+ after having been fired as a college HC:

-1998 Paul Hackett was hired by USC 6 years after being fired by by Pitt in 3 years. He had NFL OC experience, which was big at the time. USC fired him after 3 seasons.

-1999 Lou Holtz was hired at SC. Quietly fired at Arkansas back in the day b/c Broyles was jealous of him. Broyles was notorious for being a bad boss. Lou had a great run at ND.

-2008 Rick Neuheisal by UCLA. He was fired at Washington for participating in a NCAA pool. It was probably a pretext since the program was worse than when he started. IF UCLA had done their due diligance, they would have seen that he skipped out of Colorado right when the seat got hot after he depleted McCartney's program. He failed at UCLA.

-2016 Muschamp at SC. I guess they figured he was young enough that maybe he learned something. Who knows?

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Because you don't turn down the opportunity to be a head coach in exchange for a coordinator position, can't believe that is something that is being discussed to be honest.

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That is very short-sighted if his end-goal was not UTSA but a major program. You usually get one shot at the bigtime. You need to be ready when you take it. Those who got a second shot either won a title (Holtz) or were considered to have great football minds (Hackett, Loserhuesal, Boom).

Coaches who cannot make it as a coordinator are extremely unlikely to have enough other skills to cover for it at the higher levels, and the stats bear it out. At the end of the day, if you dont know your stuff, it is hard to command respect from those who do.

A great recruiter probably could have gotten an opportunity as a coordinator from a program in a talent-poor region from a coach who was willing to take them under his wing.

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Just accept the fact that whomever takes over after Sumlin is gone - you are not going to be happy.

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Happy, no. I would be happy with Chip Kelly. I would be happy with Gundy. I would be happy with somebody who has shown he can win the inferior talent. I would be happy taking a calculated risk with the pirate.

At this point though, I would be pleased with a lot of names:

Morris and Fedora both work. I think both are 50/50 to fail. I could accept those odds b/c I think Sumlin is well below 50% chance of getting it right.

If we hire somebody over 50, other than the names I mentioned I will scream since coaches usually jump the shark in their mid to late 50s. If we hire somebody young, I dont care so long as he has been a coordinator and either shown he can sustain winning as a HC at a lower level, or is highly respect like Kirby Smart was coming out of Bama.


And yes, if he does fail, I will scream that we did not hire Chip Kelly or another established winner.

one problem i see with your analysis- often you cant always know how good a DC or OC really is, as there are so many variables: e.g., your talent level, or whats happening on ither side of ball, or conflicts w coaches that arent "your" guy, or one talented assistant being largely responsibke (like a great O line coach) or a great HC making up your deficiencies.

This is borne out by the speed at which O coord and D Coord are changed (gee we thought we had a great one but hes not getting it done here).

Also shiws up in how many supposed good coordinators fail at HC.

Lastly, your own stats may prove my point- a 1 in 8 major success hit is actually pretty damn good. Better than the hit rate hiring HC and OC/DC.

Bull Sht. Once you make the head coach title, you are ALWAYS in the mix for another head coach title.

Ogeron
Franchione
Kiffin
Sarkesian
Muschamp

These are coaches in recent history that have aucked hind tit, yet all manage to either get another HC gig or bust down to a coordinator position for a short stint that eithwr has or will,lead back i,to a HC gig.

Bottom line - you take the HC job for a laundry list of reasons, the main one being that breaking through the glass ceiling is overcoming a major hurdle that you take when the opportunity presents itself. Especially if your goal is to be a head coach.

Chip Kelly is an NCAA investigation and A&M blacklist waiting to happen. No.

Gundy isnt coming here.

The Pirate would be awesome, given that a condition of his employment and pay is fielding a defense.

Other than that, a younger guy that has drive is every bit as big of a gamble as going after an established guy looking for a big,payday right before he retires.