I remember this was a topic of discussion last year. The O-line was telegraphing run or pass by their positioning. Everyone could see it, including TexAgs, and now there is official confirmation Saban used that to beat us. Someone explain to me why our O-Line was doing something that dumb?
https://www.seccountry.com/alabama/new-book-alabama-radio-analyst-reveals-cause-nick-saban-lane-kiffins-legendary-sideline-argument

http://www.nzonesystem.com

I seem to remember a former OL for the Aggies explaining this at the time. His assessment was that it's a subtle deal, most OL do the same thing to an extent, but that our inexperience last year probably made it a little worse.

Basically, it was necessary in order to get better leverage on certain plays because of some size/experience deficiencies. Probably not as big a deal as it was made out to be.

It's usually subtle and it should have more to do with blocking scheme than run/pass. However, our right tackle was really exaggerated and anytime you saw him angle back it was a pass, never a setup for a draw (for example).

4 said:

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I can tell you this:

Our center telegraphs EXACTLY when the snap is on every play, without exception. Our offense had literally no advantage whatsoever when it came to varying the snap count.

Any idiot (except our coaches) could see it. Prior to snap, check between his legs, then dip his butt immediately before snapping the ball. EVERY play.

And our coaches couldn't manage to fix it. The entire season, unaddressed.

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I noticed that and wondered the whole season if we were ever going to change it up...

Yet our easily defended offense took a lead on them in tbe 3rd qtr.

I get it though....pretty ridiculous for our staff to not do a better job fixing it.

2thFixinAg said:

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kind of curious are there any coaching eff ups that anyone actually blames on sumlin or does he just continue to point fingers at other people.

What exactly is he responsible for? anything??

He's run out of coaches to fire.

you know... the same ones he's hired.

Math time... what's the common denominator?

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Do you actually think that Sumlin interfered with Jim Turner's coaching of the OL last year? Is there a coach you'd rather have in charge of the OL? Go ahead and name some names, if so. I'd like to hear who's better than Turner.

If you can't fix it, you use it purposefully with a hard count now and then to draw an offsides.

Except our staff didn't. Honestly it's the little things but also these really big, easily fixed things that seem to be keeping this team from getting better.

Jack Cheese said:

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4 said:

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I can tell you this:

Our center telegraphs EXACTLY when the snap is on every play, without exception. Our offense had literally no advantage whatsoever when it came to varying the snap count.

Any idiot (except our coaches) could see it. Prior to snap, check between his legs, then dip his butt immediately before snapping the ball. EVERY play.

And our coaches couldn't manage to fix it. The entire season, unaddressed.

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And yet somehow Erik McCoy was selected to the All-SEC Freshman team, genius.

God, the Zoo is insufferable. You guys are an embarrassment. Seriously, the guy converted from tackle to center, plays every got damn game as a RS freshman, is downright solid at his position, but the Zoo geniuses have to piss and moan about his pre-snap form.

Yes, Jim Freakin Turner knows Erik does this. But maybe, just maybe, there's more to playing OL than you message-board warriors realize.

Idiots.

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Everyone knew this. The problem was slow OL.

If they were positioned the same way regardless of the play call they were either less effective run blockers or couldn't get to the edge fast enough.

If they were positioned differently then they gave the play type away, but not the play location. And we could use that to bait teams into falling for play action.

BTW our biggest issue against Alabama last year was the interior of our OL, not the tackles. That and OL injuries.

Quote:

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Any idiot (except our coaches)

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They haven't come up with a name for our coaches???

Jack Cheese said:

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2thFixinAg said:

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kind of curious are there any coaching eff ups that anyone actually blames on sumlin or does he just continue to point fingers at other people.

What exactly is he responsible for? anything??

He's run out of coaches to fire.

you know... the same ones he's hired.

Math time... what's the common denominator?

---

Do you actually think that Sumlin interfered with Jim Turner's coaching of the OL last year? Is there a coach you'd rather have in charge of the OL? Go ahead and name some names, if so. I'd like to hear who's better than Turner.

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Dante Scarnecchia

Quote:

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and now there is official confirmation Saban used that to beat us even worse than he would have beaten us anyway

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FIFY

Many centers check before the snap, even in the NFL. Lines like the Colts used to enjoy-statuesque and stoic for twenty straight seconds-are wildly the exception rather than the rule.

Less forgiveable is not learning to hide a tell, and I put that on the player, not the coach. Alabama has tells, too, A&M just isn't talented or skilled enough to exploit them.

Sparkie said:

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Jack Cheese said:

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2thFixinAg said:

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kind of curious are there any coaching eff ups that anyone actually blames on sumlin or does he just continue to point fingers at other people.

What exactly is he responsible for? anything??

He's run out of coaches to fire.

you know... the same ones he's hired.

Math time... what's the common denominator?

---

Do you actually think that Sumlin interfered with Jim Turner's coaching of the OL last year? Is there a coach you'd rather have in charge of the OL? Go ahead and name some names, if so. I'd like to hear who's better than Turner.

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Dante Scarnecchia

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Outstanding. We should just go ahead and hire his boss Belichick while we're at it.

Go learn the difference between who is better versus who is available.

Jack Cheese said:

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4 said:

---

I can tell you this:

Our center telegraphs EXACTLY when the snap is on every play, without exception. Our offense had literally no advantage whatsoever when it came to varying the snap count.

Any idiot (except our coaches) could see it. Prior to snap, check between his legs, then dip his butt immediately before snapping the ball. EVERY play.

And our coaches couldn't manage to fix it. The entire season, unaddressed.

---

And yet somehow Erik McCoy was selected to the All-SEC Freshman team, genius.

God, the Zoo is insufferable. You guys are an embarrassment. Seriously, the guy converted from tackle to center, plays every got damn game as a RS freshman, is downright solid at his position, but the Zoo geniuses have to piss and moan about his pre-snap form.

Yes, Jim Freakin Turner knows Erik does this. But maybe, just maybe, there's more to playing OL than you message-board warriors realize.

Calling our coaches "idiots". Who's the idiot?

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Kind of curious and I'm not going to bother to dig up every roster. But it's entirely likely that he was the only freshman center in the SEC that started that many games. In which case he'd get the above by default. Wouldn't matter how good or bad he was. right?

Meximan said:

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Many centers check before the snap, even in the NFL. Lines like the Colts used to enjoy-statuesque and stoic for twenty straight seconds-are wildly the exception rather than the rule.

Less forgiveable is not learning to hide a tell, and I put that on the player, not the coach. Alabama has tells, too, A&M just isn't talented or skilled enough to exploit them.

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I agree with this except saying it is on the player, especially a freshman. The coaches have to get that player to stop. There are myriad ways to do this.

Jack Cheese said:

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2thFixinAg said:

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kind of curious are there any coaching eff ups that anyone actually blames on sumlin or does he just continue to point fingers at other people.

What exactly is he responsible for? anything??

He's run out of coaches to fire.

you know... the same ones he's hired.

Math time... what's the common denominator?

---

Do you actually think that Sumlin interfered with Jim Turner's coaching of the OL last year? Is there a coach you'd rather have in charge of the OL? Go ahead and name some names, if so. I'd like to hear who's better than Turner.

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Your reading comprehension blows.

The issue is just another instance of many, it brings up the larger question that i asked.

Sparkie said:

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Go learn the difference between who is better versus who is available.

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And I'd rather have Belichick than Sumlin. But your point is still ****ing stupid.

2thFixinAg said:

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Jack Cheese said:

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2thFixinAg said:

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kind of curious are there any coaching eff ups that anyone actually blames on sumlin or does he just continue to point fingers at other people.

What exactly is he responsible for? anything??

He's run out of coaches to fire.

you know... the same ones he's hired.

Math time... what's the common denominator?

---

Do you actually think that Sumlin interfered with Jim Turner's coaching of the OL last year? Is there a coach you'd rather have in charge of the OL? Go ahead and name some names, if so. I'd like to hear who's better than Turner.

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Your reading comprehension blows.

The issue is just another instance of many, it brings up the larger question that i asked.

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Please help me with my reading comprehension since it blows.

You implied that there was a "coaching eff-up" (your exact words) that occurred related to the offensive line (inferred by the fact that OL is the subject of this thread). What was the coaching eff-up, to be specific?

And can you please direct me to a link or other resource to show how Sumlin "pointed the finger" at the coach who "effed-up" the offensive line this past year?

And was the eff-up perpetrated by Jim Turner (wild guess based on the fact that he is at present our OL coach)?

Stipulating for the sake of argument that there was in fact an eff-up, you imply that Sumlin is ultimately to blame because he hired the coach who purportedly "effed-up".

I just need to know how Jim Turner effed-up this past year with the OL that is so obvious to everyone, to the extent that Sumlin should be blamed and possibly even fired. I'll hang up and listen, OL expert dude.

Jack Cheese said:

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2thFixinAg said:

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Jack Cheese said:

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2thFixinAg said:

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kind of curious are there any coaching eff ups that anyone actually blames on sumlin or does he just continue to point fingers at other people.

What exactly is he responsible for? anything??

He's run out of coaches to fire.

you know... the same ones he's hired.

Math time... what's the common denominator?

---

Do you actually think that Sumlin interfered with Jim Turner's coaching of the OL last year? Is there a coach you'd rather have in charge of the OL? Go ahead and name some names, if so. I'd like to hear who's better than Turner.

---

Your reading comprehension blows.

The issue is just another instance of many, it brings up the larger question that i asked.

---

Please help me with my reading comprehension since it blows.

You implied that there was a "coaching eff-up" (your exact words) that occurred related to the offensive line (inferred by the fact that OL is the subject of this thread). What was the coaching eff-up, to be specific?

And can you please direct me to a link or other resource to show how Sumlin "pointed the finger" at the coach who "effed-up" the offensive line this past year?

And was the eff-up perpetrated by Jim Turner (wild guess based on the fact that he is at present our OL coach)?

Stipulating for the sake of argument that there was in fact an eff-up, you imply that Sumlin is ultimately to blame because he hired the coach who purportedly "effed-up".

I just need to know how Jim Turner effed-up this past year with the OL that is so obvious to everyone, to the extent that Sumlin should be blamed and possibly even fired. I'll hang up and listen, OL expert dude.

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I doubt you'd hang up. too much anger in you. read the orginal linked article. Which wasn't really news. And then you decide who's fault it was.

4 said:

---

I can tell you this:

Our center telegraphs EXACTLY when the snap is on every play, without exception. Our offense had literally no advantage whatsoever when it came to varying the snap count.

Any idiot (except our coaches) could see it. Prior to snap, check between his legs, then dip his butt immediately before snapping the ball. EVERY play.

And our coaches couldn't manage to fix it. The entire season, unaddressed.

---

This is really heavy on football technique. I don't know what the heck you're taking about.

Quote:

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You implied that there was a "coaching eff-up" (your exact words) that occurred related to the offensive line (inferred by the fact that OL is the subject of this thread). What was the coaching eff-up, to be specific?

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Haiku just for you

Coach teach technique good
Bad technique coach fix else bad
Bad coach bad technique coach eff-up

Playing underclassmen and juco transfers at OL is a recipe for disaster. Jim Turner did wonders with what he had, even if these tells could have been corrected. But really, we were a zone/read offense. Every look other than third and balls should have been a run look. Passes should have been off play action (run look), unless we got them in a hurry up set with their wrong personnell to defend the pass. On third and balls, it would not have mattered if stance was tipping, since they would be playing pass anyways.

The other thing is that Mazzone should have been aware of this. He should have used it to f--- with them. Show pass, then call a draw or screen. Become unpredictable through playcalls.


In college football, 99% of failure falls on either the HC or the Alumni base that employs him. The HC has incredible power. He hires, he fires, he has final say in who plays and how much.

Kevin Sumlin inherited a great OL. He hired weak assistants who could not do what Turner has done. He hired bad OCs (post Kliff) who did not manage their offenses. OL recruiting and development fell down. Sumlin ought to thank God that Turner was willing to come back, because Sumlin would be another failed HC as of December 2016.

For those who do not understand why Jucos and Underclassmen are a recipe for disaster at OL:

OL- need to be smart and disciplined (at least relative to the average athlete)

Jucos- (only talking about athletes here) Usually either marginal students or marginal athletes. Bad OL raw material. Go to Juco to find dumb positions- DL, RB, WR or sometimes a very freakish but narcistic QB/LB/DB.

Underclassmen- usually underweight, under conditioned, football IQ not developed. Get exposed more easily than any other place on the field. Need years in the program.

2thFixinAg said:

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Jack Cheese said:

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4 said:

---

I can tell you this:

Our center telegraphs EXACTLY when the snap is on every play, without exception. Our offense had literally no advantage whatsoever when it came to varying the snap count.

Any idiot (except our coaches) could see it. Prior to snap, check between his legs, then dip his butt immediately before snapping the ball. EVERY play.

And our coaches couldn't manage to fix it. The entire season, unaddressed.

---

And yet somehow Erik McCoy was selected to the All-SEC Freshman team, genius.

God, the Zoo is insufferable. You guys are an embarrassment. Seriously, the guy converted from tackle to center, plays every got damn game as a RS freshman, is downright solid at his position, but the Zoo geniuses have to piss and moan about his pre-snap form.

Yes, Jim Freakin Turner knows Erik does this. But maybe, just maybe, there's more to playing OL than you message-board warriors realize.

Calling our coaches "idiots". Who's the idiot?

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Kind of curious and I'm not going to bother to dig up every roster. But it's entirely likely that he was the only freshman center in the SEC that started that many games. In which case he'd get the above by default. Wouldn't matter how good or bad he was. right?

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Good point. **** on the guy's accomplishment without even looking it up. Very Zoo of you.

BTW, you guys criticizing Erik didn't even know his name, did you?

Certainly this is an issue and hopefully it gets corrected.

It could not have helped an OL that talent wise, probably just wasn't good enough in the SEC. In my opinion, I think the biggest issue was that the OL talent is just not where it needs to be. That does not mean that we can't or shouldn't work on not tipping plays...if you already suffer from a talent issue, tipping plays obviously magnifies the problem.