The thread about the Romans v Visigoths got me to thinking.

Eventually, the Visigoths settled into what we now call Spain. The Visigoths eventually became the Spanish. When did this happen? Why did names like Alaric, Theodoric, and Fritigern disappear from Spain, and the familiar Hispanic names come about? When did this happen? Was it gradual? Or did the Visigoths mingle with the Moors and create a new ethnicity with new names?

The visigoths took a tortured path to Spain. They entered the Roman empire around the Northern Greece/Thracian areas, and wandered for many years.

First of all, they were not one distinct ethnicity. Or more accurately, they were one ethnic group with a lot of other non-Visigothic people who joined with them, traveled with them, and interbred.

They eventually settled in Spain, where they intermarried with the existing Roman population. As they were a less-developed culture (and also because they converted to Christianity), they embraced a lot of the Roman ways (as most Gothic or German tribes did) and that's how their names evolved into latin-related names.

The moors didn't come in until about 300 years later, and while there was some intermarrying, it was relatively rare, because the two groups were different religions.

As for the pre-Roman inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula, they were a tribe which I believe was related to the Celts, and those of them who did not intermarry and assimilate with the Romanns (and later Goths) still live there today - the Basques, for example, are one of these old tribes.

You want to go into really cool stuff, read up about the original inhabitants of the Canary islands. They had some really strange language characteristics and are actually believed by some to be some kind of neanderthal descendants or something. (Or they may have been homo sapiens sapiens (as opposed to homo sapiens neanderthalensis), but it is speculated that they may have used an archaic and proto-human language). Anyway, it's been forever since I read this stuff.

As far as we know, however, this group died out when they were replaced by colonists from the mainland of Europe.

Like aalan94 said, the Visigoths weren't alone. Other groups such as the Vandals, Suevi and Alans settled into Spain, though they later moved out. (The Vandals to North Africa, where they used as a base & eventually sacked Rome in 455; the Alans who were of Iranian origin stayed partly in Spain & the rest joined the Vandals; the Suevi were eventually conquered by the Visigoths)

The Visigoths that ruled Spain were a minority among the existing population, so it was natural that Latin was still the dominant language. When the Muslims swept through North Africa & Spain, pockets of Latin-speaking Visigoths(& others) resistance in Northern Spain survived. These eventually became such early (9th century-12th)Iberian kingdoms like Leon, Castille, Navarre, early Portugal, Aragon... From these peoples vulgar Latin developed into quite a few different languages such as Catalan, Portuguese, Galician and Castillian Spanish which is the most common now.

From the 12th century to the end of the 15th, the Spanish Kingdoms began to merge together through intermarriage/alliances & grow more powerful. The Muslims were pushed back across the Straits of Gibralter & the last of them held out in Granada in 1492. --I HIGHLY recommend visiting Grenada & the Alhambra...a truly amazing place.

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You want to go into really cool stuff, read up about the original inhabitants of the Canary islands.

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I visited the Canaries last year & was fascinated by the history of the islands. Each island was inhabited by a different groups of peoples with few similiarities between them. The Gaunches lived on Tenerife & were supposedly tall & blond, while other on Grand Canaria or Lazarote were short & possibly with Cro-Magnon features. They also used a form of communication that consisted entirely of whistling so they could talk across great distances.

Parts of the Canaries now are overrun with expat Brits & the islands serve as a “Cancun” type place for the Euros. I however, took the path less traveled. My wife & I rented a car & drove through the middle of the island down some of the most hair-raising turns I've ever seen. I'll post a pic later!

Of course, the Canary Islanders were also the source of the first colonists who settled the Spanish city of Bexar, or Bejar (pronounced the same way, just as Texas and Texas are in Spanish).

That of course, developed into the city of San Antonio.

Grand Canaria:



An amazing place...

Fascinating history, but in looking up the visigothic kingdom and then later Leon and Castile, the names of the Kings still seemed distinctly Gothic until the Moors came (except for Roderic which I saw listed as Rodrigo also). So, somewhere along the line everything changed.

Probably so. The kings would have been the last to intermarry or otherwise assimilate, well after all of their followers had done so. That's how it happened in England with the Normans. They were still speaking French in the English court for years. Of course, the Normans themselves had only just started speaking French instead of old Norse.

That's the way it goes.

Does any one believe the legend of alaric's tomb beneath the busento river? i do

Not sure. But I'd love to go through the catacombs of Alexandria, looking for the glass coffin encased in gold that supposedly holds Alexander the Great.

nm

[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 2/15/2007 6:23p).]

My favorite topic, I will post more later

I believe I have read every piece of Visigothic histroy that is readily available. I am no expert, but the subject due to my heritage fascinates me.

As mentioned, the Visigoths were an eastern germanic group that had settled in Dacia, then southern france after sacking Rome, then helping the Romans turn attila the hun away.

When the Franks pushed them out of southern France, Tolouse, they settled in completely in Spain.

Spain at the time was inhabited by romanized Celti-Iberians, who had been there a long time. They certainly had already developed their own "Provencal" by that time while people of importance spoke Latin.

The Visigoths still spoke their germanic tongue but were frequently bilingual.

The Visigoths were initially "Arian" christians, a heresy to catholics, and intermarriage was forbidden until midway through their 300 year reign with the advent of King Leovigild, who converted to Catholicism. After that, intermarriage was widespread.

The Visigoths compromised about 10-15% of the total population in some sources, less in others. they were the ruling elite. They tended to settle in the northern central meseta, near old Castile. Their capital was Toledo. The Suevi (poor Gallegos) were subjicated by the Great Leovigild, and the Vandals were long gone.

When the damned moors invaded due to internal conflict and Roderic was slayed, the moors rapidly took over most all of Spain.

My personal hero, Hispanicized Visigoth Pelayo, rounded up remaining Visigoths in the northern Meseta and along with the unromanized Cantabrians Celts up north, kicked some muslim ass and created the Kingdom of Asturias! Many Visigoths fled muslim controlled areas to the north and helped fuel the reconquest. Those that stayed under muslim rule rarely intermarried with the moors (genetic research) and were called Mozarabs. They give us the 10% or so of Spanish words that come from arabic, and frankly sound harsh to the ears and distinguishing Castilian from Galician and Catalan.

Favila was Pelayo's offspring and from there the names become more hispanicized. The Kingdom of Leon was formed, and it goes on from there. Great reads.

Lasting legacies from the Visigoths are certian words, such as war, "guerra" or in Gothic "werra". most things to do with law, military terms, and nobility. Hildago --> son of visigoth. Many churches. Most importantly is the Spanish Identity. Franco made learning the names of the Visigothic kings mandatory in school.

Visigothic Spanish names all names that end in -es or -ez, meaning son of in Gothic--> Many more, Rodrigo (rrodriguez) from Roderick, Alfonso from Adalfuns, Alvaro from Alewar, Eurico - Euric, Gonzalo(Gonzalez) --> Visigothic Gundislav to name a few.

Had the moors not invaded, Spain would likely have been somewhat like france, and would not have emerged as a world power when it did.




[This message has been edited by Cowhop (edited 2/17/2007 2:52a).]

Great post, Cowhop.

What was the relationship like between the Visigoths & the Basques?

Apache,

not a good one really.

Keeping in mind that the Basques were original Iberians who resisted melding with the Celts, then the Romans, they also resisted the Visigoths and stayed in the hills.

The Visigoths did gain some nominal authority over the region of modern day Basque country but really didn't influence them in any significant way.

Dammit! We traded Visigoths??? he was our only deep threat! Who did the Spanish give up for him?