Berlin has an impressive site dedicated to the Holocaust. Well worth a visit when you go to Europe. Not too far from Hitler's bunker.

Any idea what the white stakes are on each of the bodies? Temporary grave markers?

Jabin said:

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Any idea what the white stakes are on each of the bodies? Temporary grave markers?

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Would be my guess

Jabin said:

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Any idea what the white stakes are on each of the bodies? Temporary grave markers?

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unfortunately i have no idea

Grave markers

These are unbelievable. Even just being there at the end, like your grandfather was, has to give you major trauma to work through

Gotcha! Sorry bout that. I apologize to all.

nortex97 said:

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tmaggies said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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fasthorse05 said:

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nortex97 said:

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Terrifying to see what man is capable of. Thx OP.

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Between Stalin (Holodomor) and Mao (The Great Leap Forward---every Dems dream) and Hitler, the 20th Century could turn the murderers out.

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Keep it in the proper forum.

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Why? We should never forget or repeat.

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Correct. It's shameful we can't openly discuss how/why the nazi's came to power, and how/why people supported/executed the holocaust then.

But, one side does not want that to happen, clearly.

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Start a new thread and keep it focused on history, in that case.

notex said:

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Everyone knows who pouts when they lose an argument/discussion.

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There may have been some losers, but I am not sure there were any winners in that argument. The now deleted posts and links said socialist like to spend heavily on the military (without acknowledging that the US is the biggest military spender in the world by far) and that in addition to the Nazis, the KKK and Islamist extremists were all leftist. Perhaps all of that is true, but it so far expands the range of the "left" that I am not sure it left room for the right to even exist.

pmart said:

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notex said:

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Everyone knows who pouts when they lose an argument/discussion.

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There may have been some losers, but I am not sure there were any winners in that argument. The now deleted posts and links said socialist like to spend heavily on the military (without acknowledging that the US is the biggest military spender in the world by far) and that in addition to the Nazis, the KKK and Islamist extremists were all leftist. Perhaps all of that is true, but it so far expands the range of the "left" that I am not sure it left room for the right to even exist.

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No, that is not what was said. What was asserted/documented that set off our troubled leftists here is that the nazi's were leftists by their own account/words, ranging from an admitted dedication to socialism, learning from Karl Marx, policies like national control of industries/output (not ownership though), socialized healthcare/nationalized education/schools, strict control of the media/propaganda of the day, etc. In fact Marx did advocate for and champion the elimination

Not once was the KKK brought up, nor islamists, to my recollection. The nazi's and the holocaust should be studied and understood for how/why/who supported them. It is a duty we should not shirk from vs. just solemnly shaking our heads at black and white images.

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Consider these remarks of Nazi leaders. Hitler on May 1, 1927:

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"We are socialists. We are enemies of today's capitalistic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions."

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Goebbels, who was the only major Nazi leader who stayed with Hitler to the very end, wrote in Der Angriff in 1928:

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"The worker in a capitalist state - that is his greatest misfortune - no longer a human being, no longer a creator, no longer a shaper of things. He has become a machine."

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That image sounds almost identical to what Charlie Chaplin, a Marxist, was portraying in his caricature of industrial society, Modern Times. In 1930, Hitler tasked Hans Buchner to clarify what Nazi economic policies were. What did Buchner elect to call the economic policies of the Nazis? "State socialism."


As the Nazis began to become a serious political party, in the 1930s, the Nazi deputies introduced a flurry of proposals: (1) to ban trading in stocks and bonds; (2) to nationalize all large banks; (3) to require registration of stock ownership with a state agency; (4) to limit interest by law to five percent; (5) to confiscate all profits acquired by inflation. These measures were not hidden; they were trumpeted on the front pages of Nazi periodicals to ensure that party members knew what the Nazi Party in the Reichstag was doing. Some Nazi proposals sound eerily modern. The Nazis, for example, proposed that old age and disability benefits (Social Security) be paid out of general revenue, rather than from the contributions of the individual recipient, and that the benefits be indexed to the cost of living.

In 1932, months before the Nazis actually took power, a leading opponent of Nazism writing under the pseudonym Nordicus, in his the book, Hitlerism: The Iron Fist in Germany, notes what Josef Goebbels, leading propagandist for the Nazis, was writing: "War against profiteers, peace with workers! Destruction of all capitalistic influences on the political system of the country." The same author notes the economic principles of Nazism included support for the general welfare, and that this included old age pensions, the confiscation of war profits, and opposition to capitalism.

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The Nazis on October 16, 1934 raised the highest income tax rate from 40% to 50%, and on February 17, 1939 raised that highest rate again to 55%. A decree of September 9, 1939 again increased income taxes, but exempted incomes of 2,400 Reichmarks a year or less. Comparative Major European Governments, a 1937 book, notes that through several new laws on December 4, 1934 banking, credits, and stock exchanges passed under complete government control and that the Loan-Stock Law limited stock company dividends to six percent in some cases and to eight percent in others, with profits over that required to be transferred to the Gold Discount Bank, which was in turn required to invest them in government loans or municipal debt service bonds.

Nazi hostility to individual wealth was matched by its hostility to big business. The same act of October 16, 1934 removed the exemption on business taxes for many types of businesses and it increased the progressivity of the business taxes; an act of August 27, 1936 raised the general business tax rate from 20% to 25% and to 30% for each year thereafter; then on July 25, 1938 corporate profits of more than 100,000 Reichmarks per year were subjected to an additional tax of 35% with that rising to 40% for each year thereafter; and on March 20, 1939, the Nazis imposed an excess profits tax. In four years, Nazis had raised taxes to approximately one fourth of the national income.

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The Nazis passed legislation to make it difficult to form or maintain corporations and to limit the authority of directors of corporations or of stockholders in corporations. Directors of corporations, for example, were allowed to grant bonuses only upon condition that they were directly tied to profit and upon condition that the board of directors authorize "voluntary social contributions" to employees, granting employees effectively an automatic share in corporate profits. Later, the tax on directors' fees was increased from 10% in March 1933 to 20% in February 1939. The capital market in Germany was almost completely closed to private issues and banks were subject to a succession of compulsory levies, confiscated reserves and increasingly high taxes. In March 1939, a decree liquidated virtually all holdings of foreign securities.

The Nazis also simply expropriated, with or without compensation to the business owners, canals, dams, roads and other private enterprises if ownership was deemed in the interest of the Reich. Even if some compensation was given to the owners, the owners themselves could not request compensation for virtual seizure of their businesses when the government wished to seize them. The same year, the Reich Supreme Court for Finance and Taxation invalidated claims for tax deductions for two spinning mills in Saxony, noting that prior law could be ignored and that tax laws had to be interpreted according to a "National - Socialistic" perspective, to the great detriment of business. Even when private property rights were suspended by the Nazis in the interests of the "people's community," if there was any compensation to the property owners, "speculative gains" were taxed away.

Vera Micheles Dean in her 1939 book, Europe in Retreat, written before the Second World War began, said that the Nazis had introduced into Germany a form of graduated Bolshevism, focusing first upon Jewish bankers, industrialists and businessmen, but then upon other businesses, noting that the Nazi goal, from which it had not deviated, was to establish an egalitarian society in which everyone is equal and subordinate to the state. The same year Time Magazine wrote that the "most cruel joke of all" has been how Hitler treated those capitalists and small businessmen who thought National Socialism would save them from radicalism. Some businesses had been expropriated; some were subjected to a capital tax; all had profits strictly controlled; and all were subjected to intense government regulation.

The Nazi regime also had taken over big estates and in many instances collectivized agriculture, a procedure fundamentally similar to Russian Communism. The same year Dorothy Thompson wrote that, having robbed the Jews, the Nazis were beginning to rob the Church, and later will almost certainly expropriate the property of the bourgeoisie. Rauschning in 1938 wrote of Nazi economic policies, "The expropriation of property will inevitably follow, as well as the complete abolition of private enterprise."

Lunn noted the very same year that the decline of economic conditions in Germany was because of socialism and bureaucracy which was leading Germany toward foreign adventures. Two years later, in 1941, Karl Lowenstein wrote that even if industry and big business had helped Hitler into power, these men found a much sterner master in National Socialism. The Nazis regulated business to death and they were completely indifferent to the effect this had upon businessmen, who the Left often had presented as the secret masters of Nazism. The Anatomy of Nazism, published by the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith in 1961, noted that many industrialists who had supported Hitler found out that the Nazis were their masters, not servants, and that an enormous amount of private correspondence was simply new bureaucratic red tape imposed by a vast, new Nazi system of controls.

Fodor the following year wrote that now there was no doubt that the National Socialist regime truly justified the second part of its name, which a few years ago probably was only "window-dressing." In 1941, former Nazi boss of Danzig, Hermann Rauschning, wrote that the last part of the German Revolution was Nazism, which was just as much a realization of Marxist as of nationalist ideas, and he notes that the only ones who refuse to admit this are supporters of Marxist theories and Nazis themselves. Rauschning also writes in his book that Marxism itself was part of a single great revolutionary movement which included Marxist Socialism, Nazism, Communist Bolshevism, Fascism and nihilism. Rauschning knew Hitler well and repudiated him and his movement at great risk before the rest of the world recognized the full danger of Nazism.

Karl Lowenstein in the 1940 book, Governments of Continental Europe, writes that there was a convergence in Bolshevism and National Socialism regarding private property, and that this was clear long before Hitler and Stalin became allies. Such things as freedom of contract, inviolability of private property, and the right to dispose of one's estate were cited as examples of the deep-reaching restrictions in both totalitarian states. National Socialists were socialists. They had nothing but contempt for what socialists call "capitalism" or what normal people call economic freedom. While it is convenient to portray Nazis as beholden to industrialists and militarists, even from the earliest days Nazis loathed not only industrialists in general but armament makers in particular. The Nazis raised taxes, punished profits, reduced the power of owners, of managers, and of directors and championed the right of the state or the party to "protect" Germany and German workers from abuses of "capitalists

Nazis were Marxists, through and through. Although Nazi condemned Bolshevism, the particular incarnation of Marx in Russia, and although the Nazis often bickered and fought with Fascism, the particular incarnation of Marx in Italy, Hitler and his ghastly accomplices were always and forever absolutely committed to that which we have come to call the "Far Left." Nazis were Marxists.

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Recruiting was not a challenge for them. Efficiency was. The archives of the einzatzgruppen records/staffing were only unsealed in the 1990's, and we are still learning more about their activities/strategies today, amazingly. The real mystery, to me anyway, is why so many people did not resist.



I do recommend Chris Browning's book 'Ordinary Men' about the non-fanatical/quite 'normal' German men who participated in 101 Police Battalion quite enthusiastically in killing tens of thousands. It's incredible beyond just pictures how the history happened, and I fear it is more relevant today than ever.

This discussion has been removed from this thread several times. Despite what you seem to think, it wasn't from any complaints by me. I'm more than happy to discuss, but start a new thread. The mods obviously don't think this is the appropriate thread.

pmart said:

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Isn't this from the first paragraph of your first link?
" The Nazis were Marxists, no matter what our tainted academia and corrupt media wishes us to believe. Nazis, Bolsheviks, the Ku Klux Klan, Maoists, radical Islam and Fascists -- all are on the Left, something that should be increasingly apparent to decent, honorable people in our times."

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Why quote that part? It wasn't excerpted or discussed here, and isn't on point at all for the thread.

Yes, incidentally it largely is true, imho (not really as much for islam (though in western democracies muslims globally vote far left)/fascists), but it's derailing to even get into it. Nazi's, Bolsheviks/Communists, Maoists obviously are left. The KKK is somewhat debatable but was really the militant terrorist wing of the Democrats before they shrunk, and later went to Antifa/Code Pink etc for such activities. Robert Byrd, the great progressive Woodrow Wilson, dixiecrats, whatever.

We have enough 'I hate your source because I don't like the points you actually made/facts provided from it' here.

Let's please keep it on focus here as to the Holocaust.

nortex97 said:

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pmart said:

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Isn't this from the first paragraph of your first link?
" The Nazis were Marxists, no matter what our tainted academia and corrupt media wishes us to believe. Nazis, Bolsheviks, the Ku Klux Klan, Maoists, radical Islam and Fascists -- all are on the Left, something that should be increasingly apparent to decent, honorable people in our times."

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Why quote that part? It wasn't excerpted or discussed here, and isn't on point at all for the thread.

Yes, incidentally it largely is true, imho (not really as much for islam (though in western democracies muslims globally vote far left)/fascists), but it's derailing to even get into it. Nazi's, Bolsheviks/Communists, Maoists obviously are left. The KKK is somewhat debatable but was really the militant terrorist wing of the Democrats before they shrunk, and later went to Antifa/Code Pink etc for such activities. Robert Byrd, the great progressive Woodrow Wilson, dixiecrats, whatever.

We have enough 'I hate your source because I don't like the points you actually made/facts provided from it' here.

Let's please keep it on focus here as to the Holocaust.

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I am confused, do you not want people to read the links you post and did you not turn the discussion into a debate about where the nazis fall on the political spectrum? In any case if you think only "leftists" and socialists governments are capable of great evil and as long as yours is not that such atrocities will not occur, then I think you will be greatly disappointed. Our own democratic capitalist country has its own fair share in its history.