Ww2 - soviet domination of us policy

1,484 Views | 8 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Jayhawk
cbr
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AG
i had some interesting acquaintances growing up that talked about this. Started reading stalins war - which is a bit of a 'counter-culture' book premised on this, but is well reseourced with credible, if low-volume sources.

Now reading target:patton, and the peripheral theme touches on the subject with even more highly credible sources.

Mccarthy's cold war era critique of marshall 'america's retreat from victory' is very well researched and its conclusions really hard to argue with.

Bottom line, people dont have a clue how significantly the soviet union controlled our war policy, economic policy, and early post war politics. Damn near the entire state dept., treasury dept., and white house staff were all soviet spies. Even the oss. The hull memo forcing japan down the path to the pacific war was written by a soviet agent to provoke a pacific war. Lend lease was designed to destroy the british empire and transfer the world to stalin.

I had always wondered about many things that made no sense growing up as a cold war child. Movies, history books, conventional wisdom seemed to paint the picture that we fought the war in the most sensible way but it never made much sense to me, especially as i began to learn about the true economic dominance we had started building by mid 42.

Given the success of the chinese playbook in undermining this country over the last 30 years, i think this topic is highly current as well.

Some of my posts have not been popular here. But I encourage everyone to read these books and reflect. It is no dishonor to our greatest generation to try to better understand why their brilliance and sacrifices turned into the cold war world.

Similarly, it is no dishonor to todays great americans to understand how our current leadership has also been subverted.

UTExan
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Good information. The Soviets were able to get enough technical information to detonate a nuclear weapon by 1949 and the British Nene jet engine thanks to their espionage networks .
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Aggie1205
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AG
Are these the same sources as before?

Quote:

there is some legitimate scholarship on the subject, largely relegated to fringe books and websites, because of these reasons. some of these sources are certainly shady. some are outright absurd. but the old books on the subject were written before 'clickbait', and before 'conspiracy theory' websites, and they are compelling, as well as backed up by quotes, contemporary research and foreign media, stats, and common sense, and they line up with my first hand stories as well.

American GI's were probably the most ethical, good natured army in history, but it was still an army. and some american leadership did want to genocide the german people.
HeightsAg
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cbr said:

Some of my posts have not been popular here. But I encourage everyone to read these books and reflect. It is no dishonor to our greatest generation to try to better understand why their brilliance and sacrifices turned into the cold war world.
That's because many of your posts are just a bunch of half truth conspiracies backed by unaccredited or non-mainstream sources that are weaved together and substantiated by a common theme of "if it is possible, then it is probable."

For example, there's no doubt that there was Soviet infiltration within our government but the idea that Soviet espionage is why we ultimately went to war with Japan is laughable. I'd say Japan's invasion of China starting in 1931 and all the atrocities that they committed is a much better explanation. And the stance that Japan was provoked or forced to declare war on us is equally ridiculous. Only ultra right wingers in Japan still believe that.

Just because you say something is credible and well researched doesn't make it so if the majority of people who dedicate their careers to the subject disagrees. It seems like you are well read but I would encourage you to take your tin foil hat off and invoke Occam's razor once in a while. It would serve you well.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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He uses it to support his political views today.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
cbr
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AG
Still stunning that on a history forum this group doesnt want to read history sources, but feels qualified to make baseless emotional attacks. Why dont you read these books? You might learn something, they are good reading, and then if your emotional reactions remain unchanged, at least you could have a point.
cbr
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AG
HeightsAg said:

cbr said:

Some of my posts have not been popular here. But I encourage everyone to read these books and reflect. It is no dishonor to our greatest generation to try to better understand why their brilliance and sacrifices turned into the cold war world.
That's because many of your posts are just a bunch of half truth conspiracies backed by unaccredited or non-mainstream sources that are weaved together and substantiated by a common theme of "if it is possible, then it is probable."

For example, there's no doubt that there was Soviet infiltration within our government but the idea that Soviet espionage is why we ultimately went to war with Japan is laughable. I'd say Japan's invasion of China starting in 1931 and all the atrocities that they committed is a much better explanation. And the stance that Japan was provoked or forced to declare war on us is equally ridiculous. Only ultra right wingers in Japan still believe that.

Just because you say something is credible and well researched doesn't make it so if the majority of people who dedicate their careers to the subject disagrees. It seems like you are well read but I would encourage you to take your tin foil hat off and invoke Occam's razor once in a while. It would serve you well.
I had one post based on personal experience and one source that you dont like. Fine.

If you actually believe that japan was not provoked by many factors into the pacific war then you really are not qualified to comment on a history forum. This is not debatable. If you dont want to learn about the extent of soviet influence on that provocation then this is not the thread for you.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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cbr said:

Still stunning that on a history forum this group doesnt want to read history sources, but feels qualified to make baseless emotional attacks. Why dont you read these books? You might learn something, they are good reading, and then if your emotional reactions remain unchanged, at least you could have a point.


Sources?
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
HeightsAg
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cbr said:

I had one post based on personal experience and one source that you dont like. Fine.

If you actually believe that japan was not provoked by many factors into the pacific war then you really are not qualified to comment on a history forum. This is not debatable. If you dont want to learn about the extent of soviet influence on that provocation then this is not the thread for you.
Interesting logic because the way I see it is Japan had an absolute choice on whether it wanted to continue to be an aggressor in WW2 against our allies. Instead they refused our demands and as a result, we placed sanctions on them which weakened their ability to continue hostilities - is that your definition of provoked? Japan wasn't forced to do anything. They could have easily ended their expansionist plans but decided not to. Sorry, but that's not my definition of provoked.
Jayhawk
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cbr said:

i had some interesting acquaintances growing up that talked about this. Started reading stalins war - which is a bit of a 'counter-culture' book premised on this, but is well reseourced with credible, if low-volume sources.

Now reading target:patton, and the peripheral theme touches on the subject with even more highly credible sources.

Mccarthy's cold war era critique of marshall 'america's retreat from victory' is very well researched and its conclusions really hard to argue with.

Bottom line, people dont have a clue how significantly the soviet union controlled our war policy, economic policy, and early post war politics. Damn near the entire state dept., treasury dept., and white house staff were all soviet spies. Even the oss. The hull memo forcing japan down the path to the pacific war was written by a soviet agent to provoke a pacific war. Lend lease was designed to destroy the british empire and transfer the world to stalin.

I had always wondered about many things that made no sense growing up as a cold war child. Movies, history books, conventional wisdom seemed to paint the picture that we fought the war in the most sensible way but it never made much sense to me, especially as i began to learn about the true economic dominance we had started building by mid 42.

Given the success of the chinese playbook in undermining this country over the last 30 years, i think this topic is highly current as well.

Some of my posts have not been popular here. But I encourage everyone to read these books and reflect. It is no dishonor to our greatest generation to try to better understand why their brilliance and sacrifices turned into the cold war world.

Similarly, it is no dishonor to todays great americans to understand how our current leadership has also been subverted.


Yep. World War II was the project of the US using the power of the new world to save the Soviet experiment because at the top, the USG was run by an intellectual elite that was enamored of the idea of scientific socialism. Once you take the blinders off, its not too hard to see, read the Supreme Court decisions from the New Deal Era (e.g. Wickard v. Filburn etc.) Even the Cold War that followed was essentially a contest over who would control what became the global left.

WW2 is the foundation myth of postmodernity, sort of akin to the Iliad for later Greek civilization. If anyone out there is interested in a sober look at our role in the war, written from a contemporary point of view and shorn of the propaganda that has made the subject almost impenetrable since then, I recommend "Back Door to War" by an academic (back when that meant something before the cultural revolution) and historian Charles C. Tansill, of Fredericksburg, Texas. You can find the book in PDF form without too much effort if you're interested.
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