Historical trivia

7,370 Views | 46 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by Rabid Cougar
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This may be common knowledge but I've never heard it before and it absolutely blew me away.

The Eighth Army Air Force in Europe lost more airmen than the entirety of Marines lost in WWII.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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I knew that but it is still shocking.

Have you seen The Cold Blue?
$240 Worth of Pudding
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Have not. Movie? Series?
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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SWC Ag said:

Have not. Movie? Series?


Movie. Definitely worth your time

JABQ04
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A&M and Civil War Related here, but yesterday on the Anniverstary of The Battle of New Market where through desperation The Cadets of VMI were put into action, two of A&Ms first four presidents fought there as VMI Cadets. John J Garland and Hardaway Hunt Dinwiddie
jickyjack1
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JABQ04 said:

A&M and Civil War Related here, but yesterday on the Anniverstary of The Battle of New Market where through desperation The Cadets of VMI were put into action, two of A&Ms first four presidents fought there as VMI Cadets. John J Garland and Hardaway Hunt Dinwiddie

That is remarkable.
Rabid Cougar
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JABQ04 said:

A&M and Civil War Related here, but yesterday on the Anniverstary of The Battle of New Market where through desperation The Cadets of VMI were put into action, two of A&Ms first four presidents fought there as VMI Cadets. John J Garland and Hardaway Hunt Dinwiddie
Was aware of Dinwiddie. I worked with a relative of his when I worked as season Park Ranger at Petersburg National Battlefield in the early '80's. He was a student at James Madison. The western portion of the trench lines extend into Dinwiddie County.
Rabid Cougar
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SWC Ag said:

This may be common knowledge but I've never heard it before and it absolutely blew me away.

The Eighth Army Air Force in Europe lost more airmen than the entirety of Marines lost in WWII.
And did it in less time...
Rabid Cougar
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More General officers were killed in the Battle of Franklin, Tennessee than any other battle in the Civil War.

The "Siege of Petersburg" lasted 1/4 of the entirety of the Civil War - 292 days.

The 1st Maine Heavy Artillery sustained the highest casualty rate of any regiment in the Civil War...
632 killed and wounded out of 850 present in 10 minutes time on an assault at Petersburg on June 18th, 1864
(My good friend Jimmy Blankenship relates the story) 1st Maine Heavy Artillery

Cinco Ranch Aggie
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SWC Ag said:

This may be common knowledge but I've never heard it before and it absolutely blew me away.

The Eighth Army Air Force in Europe lost more airmen than the entirety of Marines lost in WWII.
Read Masters of the Air, which is the basis for the forthcoming series by Spielberg/Hanks ala Band of Brothers and The Pacific. That book will take any glory that our society may have given to the bombing campaign over Europe and show just how brutal it truly was. The danger did not stem solely from Luftwaffe fighters or AA flak; consider the environment that those guys operated in.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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War is hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
Rabid Cougar
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A B-17G's turrets, machineguns and ammunition weighed 5,700 lbs. This more than the aircraft's payload.

A combat box of sixteen Fortresses had 208 .50-calibre machine guns with nearly a quarter of a million rounds of ammo between them!
jickyjack1
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Rabid Cougar said:

More General officers were killed in the Battle of Franklin, Tennessee than any other battle in the Civil War.

The "Siege of Petersburg" lasted 1/4 of the entirety of the Civil War - 292 days.

The 1st Maine Heavy Artillery sustained the highest casualty rate of any regiment in the Civil War...
632 killed and wounded out of 850 present in 10 minutes time on an assault at Petersburg on June 18th, 1864
(My good friend Jimmy Blankenship relates the story) 1st Maine Heavy Artillery



I believe there were six, if memory serves. One of them was one of the South's biggest losses of the war, Pat Cleburn(e)? There was almost one more general killed, as N.B. Forrest threatened to kill Braxton Bragg after it was over. Had Bragg been sent on an all-expenses-paid four year tour of the world just before the War began, it would have represented one of the South's most telling victories.
Rabid Cougar
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jickyjack1 said:

Rabid Cougar said:

More General officers were killed in the Battle of Franklin, Tennessee than any other battle in the Civil War.

The "Siege of Petersburg" lasted 1/4 of the entirety of the Civil War - 292 days.

The 1st Maine Heavy Artillery sustained the highest casualty rate of any regiment in the Civil War...
632 killed and wounded out of 850 present in 10 minutes time on an assault at Petersburg on June 18th, 1864
(My good friend Jimmy Blankenship relates the story) 1st Maine Heavy Artillery



I believe there were six, if memory serves. One of them was one of the South's biggest losses of the war, Pat Cleburn(e)? There was almost one more general killed, as N.B. Forrest threatened to kill Braxton Bragg after it was over. Had Bragg been sent on an all-expenses-paid four year tour of the world just before the War began, it would have represented one of the South's most telling victories.
That is correct. Seven more were wounded and one was captured, all during frontal assaults on Yankee earthworks. BUT it was Hood that ordered the assaults. Braxton Bragg was no were near Franklin.

55 regimental commanders were either killed or wounded.

"in the last two hours of the day . . . the combat was waged with a maniacal desperation witnessed on no other field of the war." Stanley Horn, The Army of Tennessee

These assaults killed 4 times the number of men than Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg.

Patrick Cleburne, John Carter, John Adams, Hiram Granbury, States Rights Gist, and Otho Strahl. Supposedly all 6 were lined up on the porch of Carnton Plantation. In reality there were on three of them (Cleburne, Granbury, and Strahl) on the porch. Granbury's chief of staff and Strahls' aid were the other two officers on the porch.

"The annals of war may long be searched for a parallel to the desperate valor of the charge of the Army of Tennessee at Franklin, a charge which has been called "the greatest drama in American history." Perhaps its only rival for macabre distinction would be Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg. A comparison of the two may be of interest. Pickett's total loss at Gettysburg was 1,354; at Franklin the Army of Tennessee lost over 6,000 dead and wounded. Pickett's charge was made after a volcanic artillery preparation of two hours had battered the defending line. Hood's army charged without any preparation. Pickett's charge was across an open space of perhaps a mile. The advance at Franklin was for two miles in the open, in full view of the enemy's works, and exposed to their fire. The defenders at Gettysburg were protected only by a stone wall. Schofield's men at Franklin had carefully constructed works, with trench and parapet. Pickett's charge was totally repulsed. The charge of Brown and Cleburne penetrated deep into the breastworks, to part of which they clung until the enemy retired. Pickett, once repelled, retired from the field. The Army of Tennessee renewed their charge, time after time. Pickett survived his charge unscathed. Cleburne was killed, and eleven other general officers were killed, wounded or captured. "Pickett's charge at Gettysburg" has come to be a synonym for unflinching courage in the raw. The slaughter-pen at Franklin even more deserves the gory honor.

Stanley Horn, The Army of Tennessee
BQ78
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Bragg wasn't at Franklin, I think you are confusing that story with one that supposedly occurred after the Battle of Chattanooga.

The fact is, Forrest and Bragg actual got along. The guy who told that story was nowhere near Chattanooga at the time and made it up. Unfortunately several historians (some pretty good too) have helped perpetrate that myth for decades.

If you want to see the details check out this link:

https://www.historynet.com/did-forrest-really-threaten-braggs-life.htm
Rabid Cougar
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Little known historical fact. JABQ04 and I were at the same FOB in Afghanistan but at different times.

JABQ04, this would not be one of your guns? Bravo Battery 3-321?

Artillery shooting at Mountain.

Artillery 2

Eliminatus
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SWC Ag said:

This may be common knowledge but I've never heard it before and it absolutely blew me away.

The Eighth Army Air Force in Europe lost more airmen than the entirety of Marines lost in WWII.


I remember reading an article as a kid and have since tried to find it again but nothing definitive.

That more Marines drowned in the Pacific than were killed by direct enemy action.

Anyone hear of that as well?
Ghost of Andrew Eaton
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John Quincy Adams was replaced in the House of Representatives by Horace Mann.
If you say you hate the state of politics in this nation and you don't get involved in it, you obviously don't hate the state of politics in this nation.
JABQ04
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Not me. I was in 10th Mountain when I was over there. And I was there in the multi-cam days.

If I am remembering correctly, FOB Wright had a period of no guns on the FOB after everyone was pushing out into COPs and such. We replaced some dudes from the 101st who had brought guns back to Wright in July 2013. I think Wright was the only base on Kunar to still have Americans at that point. Joyce shut down and was handed over as soon as we arrived. It sure wasn't the same as it was just a year prior though. We were the most active platoon int he battalion and the amount of rounds we fired would have been a slow week in years past
Rabid Cougar
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JABQ04 said:

Not me. I was in 10th Mountain when I was over there. And I was there in the multi-cam days.

If I am remembering correctly, FOB Wright had a period of no guns on the FOB after everyone was pushing out into COPs and such. We replaced some dudes from the 101st who had brought guns back to Wright in July 2013. I think Wright was the only base on Kunar to still have Americans at that point. Joyce shut down and was handed over as soon as we arrived. It sure wasn't the same as it was just a year prior though. We were the most active platoon int he battalion and the amount of rounds we fired would have been a slow week in years past


They flew the guns out in March of 2009. We had the 329th of the 101st as Battle Space owners. The 25th Inf came in around July. They had the first multicams that I saw.
Rabid Cougar
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Eliminatus said:

SWC Ag said:

This may be common knowledge but I've never heard it before and it absolutely blew me away.

The Eighth Army Air Force in Europe lost more airmen than the entirety of Marines lost in WWII.


I remember reading an article as a kid and have since tried to find it again but nothing definitive.

That more Marines drowned in the Pacific than were killed by direct enemy action.

Anyone hear of that as well?


When you drown from your landing craft sunk beneath you from direct or indirect fire you are still KIA. In regards to accidental drownings- no not even close.
BQ78
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George Nixon joined the 73rd Ohio at the beginning of the Civil War. He was 41 years old and left a wife and nine children at home. The picture above was taken the day he parted from his family. The sorrow in his face despite the funny beard is pretty obvious. Nixon was the old man in a regiment of youth. The 73rd served in the Virginia theater seeing hard fighting at Second Bull Run and Chancellorsville. Nixon's record with the regiment was impeccable.

At Gettysburg, the 73rd occupied a portion of Cemetery Hill on the morning of the second day of the battle. Sent out as a skirmisher toward Seminary Ridge, Nixon and his compadres got into a fire fight with Confederate sharpshooters in a nearby house. Nixon was struck three times, once in the right side and twice in his right hip. Nixon fell as the other skirmishers retreated back to the Hill. Nixon laid between the lines all that day and into the night. As night approached Nixon's pitiful cries finally gnawed on the humanity of company bugler Richard Enderlin to the point that asked the company commander if he could rescue Nixon in the dark. The captain agreed and Enderlin crawled out, under a constant fire, to Nixon. Putting Nixon on his back he crawled back to within a few yards of the Federal lines. From there he stood up, grabbed Nixon by the collar and made a mad dash for the Federal line. Enderlin and Nixon were safe with no further damage. For this act of bravery Enderlin was awarded the Medal of Honor.

Nixon was transported to the XI Corps Hospital on the George Spangler Farm. But his wounds were mortal and he died there on July 14.

Here is his great grandson putting flowers on his grave in the Gettysburg National Cemetery:

CanyonAg77
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Nixon was a Quaker, was he not? Wonder if grandad was or when the family converted to Quaker.
BQ78
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Must not have been a strong Quaker because Richard served in the navy during WW2 in the South Pacific and reached the rank of commander.
Cen-Tex
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CanyonAg77 said:

Nixon was a Quaker, was he not? Wonder if grandad was or when the family converted to Quaker.
Nixon's dad was Methodist and converted to Quaker when he married his wife, Hannah Milhous.
BrazosBendHorn
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The Red Baron was buried four times. First in the village cemetery of Bertangles, France. After the war, his remains were exhumed and interred at the Fricourt German War Cemetery near Albert, France. A few years after that, the Baron's surviving brother, Karl Bolko von Richthofen, had the remains exhumed with the intent of having them buried in the family plot (then located in Schweidnitz in Lower Silesia, which is now in Poland). But then the German government stepped in and had the remains buried at the Invalidenfriedhof Cemetery in Berlin. After WWII, the grave was in the part of Berlin that was occupied by the Soviets. Following construction of the Berlin Wall in 1961, the grave was practically inaccessible. (A section of the Berlin Wall was only a few yards from the grave.) Finally, in 1975 his remains were exhumed and interred in the family plot near Wiesbaden.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

SWC Ag said:

This may be common knowledge but I've never heard it before and it absolutely blew me away.

The Eighth Army Air Force in Europe lost more airmen than the entirety of Marines lost in WWII.
Read Masters of the Air, which is the basis for the forthcoming series by Spielberg/Hanks ala Band of Brothers and The Pacific. That book will take any glory that our society may have given to the bombing campaign over Europe and show just how brutal it truly was. The danger did not stem solely from Luftwaffe fighters or AA flak; consider the environment that those guys operated in.


Picked this up based on your recommendation. Very good so far. Amazing testimonial for courage.

I know there are lots of similarly courageous men and women serving/have served our country today, some of whom post in this forum, but I just can't help feeling when I read what these men did how unworthy we have become.
Rabid Cougar
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There were 64 Coca-Cola Bottling plants shipped around the world to support American armed forces during WWII.

Coke's technicians were sent to support and operate them. They wore Army uniforms and received Army pay and had a special patch to denote them as civilians...(I can relate.) They distributed nearly 5 billion bottles of Coke during the conflict.



The_Waco_Kid
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The US Navy spent $1m to convert a concrete barge specifically to make ice cream to increase morale amongst US troops overseas. It could make 10 gallons a minute when in full support. When Chesty Puller (USMC) heard the barge was reactivated for the Korean War, he sent a letter to the Pentagon stating that ice cream "softened men, they should be provided other American staples" - namely beer and whiskey. The Pentagon followed with a statement that no soldier fighting should receive less than 3 servings per week.
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$240 Worth of Pudding
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On April 19, 1775, British forces were returning to Boston from the Battles of Lexington and Concord, the opening engagements of the war. On their march they were continually shot at by American militiamen.

Samuel Whittemore was in his fields when he spotted an approaching British relief brigade under Earl Percy, sent to assist the retreat. Whittemore loaded his musket and ambushed the British Grenadiers of the 47th Regiment of Foot from behind a nearby stone wall, killing one soldier. He then drew his dueling pistols, killed a second grenadier and mortally wounded a third. By the time Whittemore had fired his third shot, a British detachment had reached his position; Whittemore drew his sword and attacked. He was subsequently shot in the face, bayoneted numerous times, and left for dead in a pool of blood. He was found by colonial forces, trying to load his musket to resume the fight. He was taken to Dr. Cotton Tufts of Medford, who perceived no hope for his survival.


Whittemore recovered and lived another 18 years until dying of natural causes at the age of 96.
Eliminatus
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Something I learned that blew my mind.

Germany made the final reparations payment from the Treaty of Versailles.....in Sept. of 2010, and satisfied all agreements in that Treaty at that time.

Had no idea it took that long and actually never really considered the ramifications of that Treaty post WW2. I figured it was effectively nullified and rolled into the WW2 rebuilding efforts.

USAFAg
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Rabid Cougar said:

SWC Ag said:

This may be common knowledge but I've never heard it before and it absolutely blew me away.

The Eighth Army Air Force in Europe lost more airmen than the entirety of Marines lost in WWII.
And did it in less time...
... and the USAAF lost more airmen total than the USN and USMC combined. Notice the disparity between the USAAF and USN Killed/Wounded as opposed to the USMC and USA Killed/Wounded.

The ratio of killed to wounded is generally accepted as 1 to 2-4. Testimony to the high specific gravity of ship armor, the results of impacting the ground at high speeds and both being confined spaces, I suppose. The overall killed to wounded ratio for all services is pretty far off, based on the rule of thumb. Seems only the USMC, generally viewed as the bloodiest service, came close


US MILITARY CASUALTIES IN WORLD WAR II

Branch Killed Wounded
Army and USAAF 318,274 565,861
Navy 62,614 37,778
Marines 24,511 68,207
Coast Guard 1,917 Unknown
TOTAL 407,316 671,278


USAAF only: 88,119 18,364

12thFan/Websider Since 2003
Jabin
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Do those Marine numbers include Marine aviators? If so, my guess is that Marine aviation killed/wounded looked pretty similar to USAAF killed/wounded.

Thus, if you back out Marine aviation from Marine generally, the killed/wounded ratio for Marine ground forces only would become even more disparate from aviation.

One other factor is that ground forces (whether USA or Marine) most likely had better access and faster access to corpsmen and medical facilities than did airmen.
USAFAg
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I would assume so, but don't really know the breakout. Yes, I suspect they would and the availability of immediate medical help had to also factor in.

When I did a little research about the ratio, one of the given reasons for a higher than normal killed v. wounded was the lethality of combat and effects of weapons in enclosed spaces.

Both ships and aircraft would meet that variable. If you also do a breakout of armor v. infantry deaths I imagine you would also see a definite difference in ratios.

12thFan/Websider Since 2003
Jabin
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Good point about armor. That's probably even more true today. I wonder if anyone survives a round that is able to penetrate modern armored vehicles.

My dad had a cousin that survived 3 tanks being shot out from under him in Europe during WW 2. That's definitely the exception, not the rule, though. He was pretty banged up when I last saw him in the early 70s - had only 4-6 fingers on both hands. He also died in his 50s, and I've always suspected that had more than a little to do with his wartime injuries.
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