Logical conclusion of tear down of confederate monuments...

2,790 Views | 26 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by Jarrin' Jay
OKC~Ag
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George Washington and Jefferson.

Our founding fathers. Jefferson, a political genius.

Washington, without him, we don't have USA...probably Jefferson too...

So what do historians thoughts about current movement reaching our pinnacle of our founding father's legacy?

The_Waco_Kid
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AG
The current movement will ultimately kill every single monument, as no one person isn't objectionable to at least one person somehow, somewhere, if pursued to the final end. Even if there was one person who was a POC, never fought against any ideal of the USA, and promoted peace for all, there was one thing they said or did that offended one person somewhere.
aalan94
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AG
When this is done, the only monuments we'll have left will be stylized chairs and blobs and stuff.
BQ_90
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it won't stop there. Streets, building, cities will have to be renamed next.
Rabid Cougar
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AG
and states....
HollywoodBQ
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AG

Quote:

Logical conclusion of tear down of confederate monuments...
The logical conclusion is that eventually they come for the Texas Flag.

And that won't end well for the plaintiffs.
UTExan
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This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.
cavscout96
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AG
1984....
cavscout96
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AG
literally
Brutal Puffin
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Why stop at statues of humans.... https://bluelivesmatter.blue/portland-rioters-torch-120-year-old-elk-statue/
Smokedraw01
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UTExan said:

This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.


Which culture is being annihilated? What value did that culture add to America?
Jugstore Cowboy
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AG
Elaborate on your thoughts, please.

This isn't about individual targets; this is a long process to undermine the legitimacy of the constitution.
Belton Ag
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AG
Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.


Which culture is being annihilated? What value did that culture add to America?
The OP specifically mentions Washington and Jefferson. Surely you're not asking what value that culture added to America...
Smokedraw01
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The most significant portion of the movement is to tear down CSA statues. There are and will be movements to take down the statues of the slave holders and those should be fought against. Only one side is mobilized and the other side sits on websites complaining.

This video is a fairly reasonable take on the situation. He's no historian but he does a decent job in the lecture.
Belton Ag
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AG
Smokedraw01 said:

The most significant portion of the movement is to tear down CSA statues. There are and will be movements to take down the statues of the slave holders and those should be fought against. Only one side is mobilized and the other side sits on websites complaining.

This video is a fairly reasonable take on the situation. He's no historian but he does a decent job in the lecture.

OK fine, but the OP specifically addressed the Founders, which is why I responded to your post.
UTExan
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Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.


Which culture is being annihilated? What value did that culture add to America?


The culture of western civilization; Christianity and the Enlightenment, which defeated the despotism of the Orient and created a new civilization to which millions from the old despotisms wish to flock, I know of very few American born folks wishing to migrate to Africa; I know many Africans from travel there who would live to come to the USA.

What you see is an attempt to destroy that culture by attempting to blot out the memory of its (white) American creators.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Smokedraw01
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UTExan said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.


Which culture is being annihilated? What value did that culture add to America?


The culture of western civilization; Christianity and the Enlightenment, which defeated the despotism of the Orient and created a new civilization to which millions from the old despotisms wish to flock, I know of very few American born folks wishing to migrate to Africa; I know many Africans from travel there who would live to come to the USA.

What you see is an attempt to destroy that culture by attempting to blot out the memory of its (white) American creators.
Or a chance to fix some of the ills of that civilization.
Belton Ag
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AG
Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.


Which culture is being annihilated? What value did that culture add to America?


The culture of western civilization; Christianity and the Enlightenment, which defeated the despotism of the Orient and created a new civilization to which millions from the old despotisms wish to flock, I know of very few American born folks wishing to migrate to Africa; I know many Africans from travel there who would live to come to the USA.

What you see is an attempt to destroy that culture by attempting to blot out the memory of its (white) American creators.
Or a chance to fix some of the ills of that civilization.
You can't "fix" something that happened in the past. You can move on, you can try and do your best to make sure it doesn't happen again, but you can't fix it. No amount of monument destruction, denouncement of historical figures or renaming of cities will ever change what happened. I'm really at a loss as to what you mean by fixing the ills of that civilization.
Smokedraw01
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Belton Ag said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.


Which culture is being annihilated? What value did that culture add to America?


The culture of western civilization; Christianity and the Enlightenment, which defeated the despotism of the Orient and created a new civilization to which millions from the old despotisms wish to flock, I know of very few American born folks wishing to migrate to Africa; I know many Africans from travel there who would live to come to the USA.

What you see is an attempt to destroy that culture by attempting to blot out the memory of its (white) American creators.
Or a chance to fix some of the ills of that civilization.
You can't "fix" something that happened in the past. You can move on, you can try and do your best to make sure it doesn't happen again, but you can't fix it. No amount of monument destruction, denouncement of historical figures or renaming of cities will ever change what happened. I'm really at a loss as to what you mean by fixing the ills of that civilization.


Many of the statues being taken down, mostly CSA, were part of a campaign to rewrite the actual history. If anything, taking down these statues has caused people to reevaluate what they know about the CSA and the purpose for its creation.
Belton Ag
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AG
I know this; I'm not a neophyte when it comes this this subject. Nothing that you have said has the ability to "fix" the issues of the past.

Frankly, much of the opposition to the destruction of Confederate monuments doesn't come from a longing to cling to the Lost Cause, but has much to do with the notion of the OP. We know that it won't stop with Confederate statues; it's already moved on to things such as Sully, murals of George Washington, and statues of Ulysses S Grant. The range of what constitutes the unacceptable to the left is ever-widening.
UTExan
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Smokedraw01 said:

Belton Ag said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.


Which culture is being annihilated? What value did that culture add to America?


The culture of western civilization; Christianity and the Enlightenment, which defeated the despotism of the Orient and created a new civilization to which millions from the old despotisms wish to flock, I know of very few American born folks wishing to migrate to Africa; I know many Africans from travel there who would live to come to the USA.

What you see is an attempt to destroy that culture by attempting to blot out the memory of its (white) American creators.
Or a chance to fix some of the ills of that civilization.
You can't "fix" something that happened in the past. You can move on, you can try and do your best to make sure it doesn't happen again, but you can't fix it. No amount of monument destruction, denouncement of historical figures or renaming of cities will ever change what happened. I'm really at a loss as to what you mean by fixing the ills of that civilization.


Many of the statues being taken down, mostly CSA, were part of a campaign to rewrite the actual history. If anything, taking down these statues has caused people to reevaluate what they know about the CSA and the purpose for its creation.


And if Reconstruction had not inverted the entire social order there would probably be far fewer Confederate statues. It was that backlash effect that caused Jim Crow in its hateful vindictiveness because there were actually northern Abolitionists who wished genocide for up to 1/3 of the south's white population. And the southern whites, being both more numerous and armed, were vengeful and resented blacks being treated equally under the law or social standards, even if they never profited from slave labor.
BTW, you cannot "fix" African or Middle Eastern societies: their cultural seeds are totalitarian and communitarian. If you want to "fix" American society's inequities then certainly most Americans are willing to listen. But there is a big difference in guaranteeing equality of opportunities vs equality of outcomes. Medical schools, law schools and certainly any discipline based on science could not tolerate the dishonesty of advancing unprepared students.
That is what differentiates them from the liberal arts and humanities, such as history where revisionist scholars are apparently able to recreate normative historical narratives rooted in 21st Century comfort which completely disregard the existing past realities of say, the 19th century where brutal frontier conditions required a very rough group of counterterrorism fighters called the Texas Rangers.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Smokedraw01
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Belton Ag said:

I know this; I'm not a neophyte when it comes this this subject. Nothing that you have said has the ability to "fix" the issues of the past.

Frankly, much of the opposition to the destruction of Confederate monuments doesn't come from a longing to cling to the Lost Cause, but has much to do with the notion of the OP. We know that it won't stop with Confederate statues; it's already moved on to things such as Sully, murals of George Washington, and statues of Ulysses S Grant. The range of what constitutes the unacceptable to the left is ever-widening.


Then fight the fights worth having. Protecting CSA graven images is not worth it. Join with the fight and maybe the defense of Washington and Jefferson and Grant won't be as difficult. In that video, we have an ACLU lawyer saying that the Washington monument shouldn't come down. But many focus on the radicals, which I believe to be the vocal minority.
Smokedraw01
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UTExan said:

Smokedraw01 said:

Belton Ag said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.


Which culture is being annihilated? What value did that culture add to America?


The culture of western civilization; Christianity and the Enlightenment, which defeated the despotism of the Orient and created a new civilization to which millions from the old despotisms wish to flock, I know of very few American born folks wishing to migrate to Africa; I know many Africans from travel there who would live to come to the USA.

What you see is an attempt to destroy that culture by attempting to blot out the memory of its (white) American creators.
Or a chance to fix some of the ills of that civilization.
You can't "fix" something that happened in the past. You can move on, you can try and do your best to make sure it doesn't happen again, but you can't fix it. No amount of monument destruction, denouncement of historical figures or renaming of cities will ever change what happened. I'm really at a loss as to what you mean by fixing the ills of that civilization.


Many of the statues being taken down, mostly CSA, were part of a campaign to rewrite the actual history. If anything, taking down these statues has caused people to reevaluate what they know about the CSA and the purpose for its creation.


And if Reconstruction had not inverted the entire social order there would probably be far fewer Confederate statues. It was that backlash effect that caused Jim Crow in its hateful vindictiveness because there were actually northern Abolitionists who wished genocide for up to 1/3 of the south's white population. And the southern whites, being both more numerous and armed, were vengeful and resented blacks being treated equally under the law or social standards, even if they never profited from slave labor.
BTW, you cannot "fix" African or Middle Eastern societies: their cultural seeds are totalitarian and communitarian. If you want to "fix" American society's inequities then certainly most Americans are willing to listen. But there is a big difference in guaranteeing equality of opportunities vs equality of outcomes. Medical schools, law schools and certainly any discipline based on science could not tolerate the dishonesty of advancing unprepared students.
That is what differentiates them from the liberal arts and humanities, such as history where revisionist scholars are apparently able to creative normative historical narratives rooted in 21st Century comfort which completely disregard the existing past realities of say, the 19th century where brutal frontier conditions required a very rough group of counterterrorism fighters called the Texas Rangers.


So the hatred of southern whites was caused by the Radical Republicans. To me, the hatred existed well before Reconstruction. It's almost like that hatred led directly to the Civil War.

And those slaves are Americans, not African. Take the tired trope elsewhere.

Also, why would black students be "unprepared" in your view? What is your opinion of Clarence Thomas?
Smokedraw01
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I'm going to back away from this conversation. The last thing I want to do is bring the poison of the politics board over hear. Apologies for any offense.
tmaggies
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AG
Smokedraw01 said:

Belton Ag said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.


Which culture is being annihilated? What value did that culture add to America?


The culture of western civilization; Christianity and the Enlightenment, which defeated the despotism of the Orient and created a new civilization to which millions from the old despotisms wish to flock, I know of very few American born folks wishing to migrate to Africa; I know many Africans from travel there who would live to come to the USA.

What you see is an attempt to destroy that culture by attempting to blot out the memory of its (white) American creators.
Or a chance to fix some of the ills of that civilization.
You can't "fix" something that happened in the past. You can move on, you can try and do your best to make sure it doesn't happen again, but you can't fix it. No amount of monument destruction, denouncement of historical figures or renaming of cities will ever change what happened. I'm really at a loss as to what you mean by fixing the ills of that civilization.


Many of the statues being taken down, mostly CSA, were part of a campaign to rewrite the actual history. If anything, taking down these statues has caused people to reevaluate what they know about the CSA and the purpose for its creation.





Just go away.......this is the attitude that has us in this current political situation with OUR country as it is. We have the best country in the world where everyone has an opportunity to be successful regardless race, color or beliefs and if people can't see that they are blind.
UTExan
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Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

Smokedraw01 said:

Belton Ag said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

Smokedraw01 said:

UTExan said:

This is an annihilation moment: cultural destruction is the end goal. Like most revolutions it will eat the participants alive.


Which culture is being annihilated? What value did that culture add to America?


The culture of western civilization; Christianity and the Enlightenment, which defeated the despotism of the Orient and created a new civilization to which millions from the old despotisms wish to flock, I know of very few American born folks wishing to migrate to Africa; I know many Africans from travel there who would live to come to the USA.

What you see is an attempt to destroy that culture by attempting to blot out the memory of its (white) American creators.
Or a chance to fix some of the ills of that civilization.
You can't "fix" something that happened in the past. You can move on, you can try and do your best to make sure it doesn't happen again, but you can't fix it. No amount of monument destruction, denouncement of historical figures or renaming of cities will ever change what happened. I'm really at a loss as to what you mean by fixing the ills of that civilization.


Many of the statues being taken down, mostly CSA, were part of a campaign to rewrite the actual history. If anything, taking down these statues has caused people to reevaluate what they know about the CSA and the purpose for its creation.


And if Reconstruction had not inverted the entire social order there would probably be far fewer Confederate statues. It was that backlash effect that caused Jim Crow in its hateful vindictiveness because there were actually northern Abolitionists who wished genocide for up to 1/3 of the south's white population. And the southern whites, being both more numerous and armed, were vengeful and resented blacks being treated equally under the law or social standards, even if they never profited from slave labor.
BTW, you cannot "fix" African or Middle Eastern societies: their cultural seeds are totalitarian and communitarian. If you want to "fix" American society's inequities then certainly most Americans are willing to listen. But there is a big difference in guaranteeing equality of opportunities vs equality of outcomes. Medical schools, law schools and certainly any discipline based on science could not tolerate the dishonesty of advancing unprepared students.
That is what differentiates them from the liberal arts and humanities, such as history where revisionist scholars are apparently able to creative normative historical narratives rooted in 21st Century comfort which completely disregard the existing past realities of say, the 19th century where brutal frontier conditions required a very rough group of counterterrorism fighters called the Texas Rangers.


So the hatred of southern whites was caused by the Radical Republicans. To me, the hatred existed well before Reconstruction. It's almost like that hatred led directly to the Civil War.

And those slaves are Americans, not African. Take the tired trope elsewhere.

Also, why would black students be "unprepared" in your view? What is your opinion of Clarence Thomas?


Not sure why the allusion to slaves being American. Our great problem was twofold IMHO: not quickly reuniting the country and not giving freed slaves land on the Great Plains where they could build wealth independent of their past bondage in the south. It is not poison to vigorously debate these things and my comments on African and Asian social systems are based on the product we see today: land tenure in Africa is never secure due to tribal ownership; the tribal members greatly defer to the chief to this day, seemingly regardless of how outrageous his decisions, for instance. Property law, which grants permanent tenure to the owner, is a great idea of western civilization.
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
Aquin
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AG
After WW2, Germany had a choice. It could keep a few of the concentration camps around or it could bulldoze them. Eisenhower was so worried that the memory of the Holocaust would later be forgotten or denied that he made the citizens of the town of Dachau view the camp.

So if I get this right, once all the confederate statues are gone, we can deny that slavery and the confederacy ever happened...right?
Jarrin' Jay
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Texas has had the same flag since it seceded from Mexico and became independent. Republic, U.S., CSA, U.S. again, why is there not vitriol about the Texas flag?

One of the primary issues of abolishing slavery was that it was a national problem that needed a national solution, and no solution was ever put forth by the abolitionist or Lincoln or the Republican party (other than Lincoln's idea to emigrate or deport them). Slave labor was labor, pure and simple (though wrong of course). It's not as if slave owners did not have to expend their capital on their slaves for housing, food, supplies, equipment, furnishings, clothes, etc., etc. I don't think it would not have mattered to many if they simply had to pay a wage to their laborers instead of spending the same $$ to support them. That may have even been more economical once they started charging rent on the shacks they lived in on the owners land.

The abolitionist movement was still an extreme minority in the North, and the North benefitted from the institution of slavery in the south, not just on a macro level but that most of the slave merchants were from the North. Right or wrong, and we certainly agree and know it to be wrong, but the practice was legally and constitutionally protected, and slaves were "property". If the national government is going to move to liquidate private property, there has to be equitable compensation. That was never discussed or proposed.

The failing of the 13th Amendment was not the amendment itself, it was the lack of "what then", no relocation programs, no education programs, no assistance, nothing. And those newly freed blacks, most of them could not move North due to the rampant black codes of the North. So, you "free" them, but nothing in their life changed. When they were able to move north more freely they experienced much of the same discrimination and segregation, unfortunately.

What is giving rise to neo-confederates, who are completely separate from those that are proud of Southern heritage and may be proud of a Confederate soldier ancestor who did not fight for slavery but for the concept of a limited federal government, is the demonization of ancestors. As if it was only ever a handful of southern white crackers that ever had anything to do with slavery, disregarding the fact that all original colonies had slavery, most slave-merchants were from the north, there were free blacks who owned slaves, the Dutch, etc. didn't have to capture slaves in Africa as much as buy or trade for them, many northern states that did not have slavery also would not allow blacks to live in their stare, etc., etc., etc. Two wrongs do not make a right, but why should only one segment be demonized and the other get a pass???

I am not a CSA apologist who says the war had nothing to do with slavery, that is ridiculous. But the vast majority of soldiers on either side did not care about slavery and felt the exact same way about slaves/blacks. Largely the war was fought by one side wanting to preserve the Union with a strong federal government while the other side wanted a limited federal government with the states having co-equal power the way the Constitution was actually written...
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