I think they got the six officers in Pulaski, TN correct, other than that it is garbage.
Questions about Nathan Bedford Forrest
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Last: 2 yr ago by BQ78
Do you know who Lochlainn Seabrook is, and is he a legit historian?BQ78 said:
I think they got the six officers in Pulaski, TN correct, other than that it is garbage.
I may have gotten who said what wrong and all that as I am not as familiar with the players as you guys are. My point was that written history has gaps, and we are left to try to figure out the biases and motivations of why people say/write what they did after the heat of the battle.BQ78 said:
I don't think Clark was covering his butt in a letter home, that probably isn't going to do that. I only question Clark's account of what he didn't know. I have no doubt some of the men may have said Forrest ordered the killing but there is no evidence or account of that. I don't believe Forrest made an appearance during the massacre based on staff reports and that he headed to the place where his dying brother was before it was over. So Clark is probably wrong about why the killing continued but I have no doubt about the accuracy of what he actually saw, because others told similar tales.
The cover NBF's butt quote I was speaking of is the one from Caldwell. I believe it was written well after the war stating Forrest personally tried to stop the carnage; no he was already heading to his dying brother's bedside, while the carnage continued.
If he was talking about Clark and not Caldwell, than maybe we weren't agreeing.I thought by "his" in his post he was speaking of Forrest, which I believe is true for Caldwell. But if he meant Clark than I misunderstood.Quote:
could be explained by the subordinate officer covering his butt after the war.
If Im an officer and I took part in a massacre that was questioned years later, its possible I may "mis-remember" what happened to save my own butt. So for that reason, I put much more stock in an opposing soldier's statement of goodwill than a subordinate officer that would have reason to cover his butt.
But again we are left to speculation where we are trying to fill in the gaps.
I don't consider him legit, I consider Thomas DiLorenzo a better historian than him and I don't consider DiLorenzo legit on the causes of the Civil War. Both of them are spinners for the south. Seabrook is what I would call a Neo-Confederate. Think MSNBC or CNN as experts on Trump or Black Lives matter.
Well said. There are often dozens or even hundreds of books on any subject, but how to decide which are credible and authoritative?BQ78 said:
I don't consider him legit, I consider Thomas DiLorenzo a better historian than him and I don't consider DiLorenzo legit on the causes of the Civil War. Both of them are spinners for the south. Seabrook is what I would call a Neo-Confederate. Think MSNBC or CNN as experts on Trump or Black Lives matter.
In the case of the Civil War, for example, the South has spent the last hundred years spinning the yarn of the Lost Cause and editing the record of its heroes and institutions, so due diligence is necessary to check the credentials and reputation of authors before accepting their work as "history".
Because that can be difficult, I frequently suggest resources like the US Army History Center's bibliography, "Military Classics", when people ask for book suggestions. It's certainly not the last word on any subject by any stretch, but its list of recommended books is safely reputable and the author states his credentials and selection bias right up front in the preface.
Anyway, just because someone manages to get their book in print doesn't make what's in it true.
"I don't consider him legit...."
How about Steel Wills ? What is your opinion? Just curious.
How about Steel Wills ? What is your opinion? Just curious.
How is he not legit? Does he 1) only present (cited) facts from one side? 2) Not cite his facts at all, or 3) present falsehoods as facts?
If it is true that the original KKK had black members and even all black chapters, then that blows my mind. I wonder what evidence he has for that claim.
If it is true that the original KKK had black members and even all black chapters, then that blows my mind. I wonder what evidence he has for that claim.
Brian Steel Wills is legit.
All three, as I said his version of Forrest is like believing CNN's version of BLM, probably worse than that actually.
All three, as I said his version of Forrest is like believing CNN's version of BLM, probably worse than that actually.
Do you think the one claim that there were black members and chapter of the klan is a falsehood?
Never seen any evidence of it.
BQ78 said:
Brian Steel Wills is legit.
All three, as I said his version of Forrest is like believing CNN's version of BLM, probably worse than that actually.
Can you share CNN's "not legit" version of BLM?
Obviously you don't get the analogy that aTm would. Go to F16 for politics, we are discussing history here.
While this is logically sound, it's also worth noting that there really wasn't much of a place for many slaves to go either. With no money and resources, and actually having only a vague idea of geography (I doubt they had maps), they couldn't exactly plan that exodus to Detroit right away. It would be years before that big outflow of Southern blacks happened.Quote:It still means something for those that it did happen to. If I was getting abused, I sure as hell wouldn't stay.Quote:Rabid Cougar said:Quote:
Is it true that all his slaves stood by him after he freed them?
It was not that uncommon for that to happen.
"Maybe NBF was like Michael Jordan where he pissed off his own teammates a lot."
Could be. I read, (no reference since it was a while ago) that Forrest was in a meeting with other Confederate commanders and while listening to the tactical suggestions of a Southern General educated at West Point, criticized the Gen's plan a little, while offering an alternate movement. The WP General rebuked Forrest as not knowing much about West Point Tactics. Forrest allegedly said " General if I knew as much about West Point tactics as you, I get hell whipped out of me everyday..." or words to that effect.
BQ78, is there any validation to that story?
Could be. I read, (no reference since it was a while ago) that Forrest was in a meeting with other Confederate commanders and while listening to the tactical suggestions of a Southern General educated at West Point, criticized the Gen's plan a little, while offering an alternate movement. The WP General rebuked Forrest as not knowing much about West Point Tactics. Forrest allegedly said " General if I knew as much about West Point tactics as you, I get hell whipped out of me everyday..." or words to that effect.
BQ78, is there any validation to that story?
That's true he said it to Stephen Lee after they both had a very bad day and got whipped. Forrest refused to serve under Lee after that debacle.
BQ78 mentioned earlier that NBF slaves were freed in Georgia and several of them made it all the way back to Mississippi on their own to work/live under him. That seems to be a conscious choice, rather than a necessity forced by a lack of choices.aalan94 said:While this is logically sound, it's also worth noting that there really wasn't much of a place for many slaves to go either. With no money and resources, and actually having only a vague idea of geography (I doubt they had maps), they couldn't exactly plan that exodus to Detroit right away. It would be years before that big outflow of Southern blacks happened.Quote:It still means something for those that it did happen to. If I was getting abused, I sure as hell wouldn't stay.Quote:Rabid Cougar said:Quote:
Is it true that all his slaves stood by him after he freed them?
It was not that uncommon for that to happen.
Formidable military genius such as you might find once in several generations. Unfortunately also a traitor whose men were murderers. He was a man of means before the war, paid for his own regiment, his recruiting slogan was "Let's have fun and kill some Yankees!". I admired the elan. But I'm a yankee... so take my 2 cents for what its worth.
Hope we never have to fight fellow Americans again.
Hope we never have to fight fellow Americans again.
Jayhawk said:
Unfortunately also a traitor whose men were murderers.
Ironic username is ironic?
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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Yankees go home !
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
This is a good discussion.
Not saying this about anyone here specifically, but it's interesting to me how much grey is lost in historical figures, they often need to be painted as "good" or "bad" with the "facts" then supporting that view. Everyone is shades of grey. And NBF was a white man in a societally racist south. Even if he had more liberal leanings than traditionally taught (and there is only Limited evidence to support that), policitally he couldn't have shared them much if at all. And slaves went back to their former owners in part due to lack of options and knowing nothing else. It wasn't necessarily an endorsement, but often a perceived necessity.
Jmo.
Not saying this about anyone here specifically, but it's interesting to me how much grey is lost in historical figures, they often need to be painted as "good" or "bad" with the "facts" then supporting that view. Everyone is shades of grey. And NBF was a white man in a societally racist south. Even if he had more liberal leanings than traditionally taught (and there is only Limited evidence to support that), policitally he couldn't have shared them much if at all. And slaves went back to their former owners in part due to lack of options and knowing nothing else. It wasn't necessarily an endorsement, but often a perceived necessity.
Jmo.
I had heard that, in a time of expanding freemasonry offshoots, the kuklos (Greek for circle) clan was to be a southern Masonic society seeking to retain a gentility that might be lost to a less stratified northern influence...slavery and racial maltreatment having nothing to do with it...as with freemasonry in general. That said, inclusion of some unsavory characters and reconstruction frustration led to the lowest common denominators taking the organization to such awful outcomes so quickly that many original members and all freemasonry organizations distanced, quit, and disavowed what we know as the kkK almost immediately upon its descent. I was led to believe that NBF was one of those to depart early on for those reasons.
ordordordordord
How can one be a traitor when one never took an oath to anything? He was businessman. Never was in the U.S. Army. No loyalty oath was to be had.Jayhawk said:
Formidable military genius such as you might find once in several generations. Unfortunately also a traitor whose men were murderers. He was a man of means before the war, paid for his own regiment, his recruiting slogan was "Let's have fun and kill some Yankees!". I admired the elan. But I'm a yankee... so take my 2 cents for what its worth.
Hope we never have to fight fellow Americans again.
By that definition any US citizen who hasn't been in the military in the US could "attack" our military and not be considered a traitor?
NBF was a great General and also an even better businessman. After the the war he became a millionaire. He got investors to buy into a rail road from the Mississippi River to the Little Rock area. They had to go through the Crowley Ridge. Very daunting engineering in the day. But Arkansas had great flat land for farming and he knew that they needed transportation to markets. And he made it happen. After PGT Beauregard, Forrest is my favorite General.
NBF was a true genius, in the old meaning of that term.GSPag` said:
NBF was a great General and also an even better businessman. After the the war he became a millionaire. He got investors to buy into a rail road from the Mississippi River to the Little Rock area. They had to go through the Crowley Ridge. Very daunting engineering in the day. But Arkansas had great flat land for farming and he knew that they needed transportation to markets. And he made it happen. After PGT Beauregard, Forrest is my favorite General.
Why Beauregard , out of curiosity? Didn't he have the big win at Manassass but then piss off Davis and crew in Richmond over the winter? I never understood how he ended up in relative obscurity after being the main man (other than Johnston) in the early days.
Just finished a biography of Sherman. I don't remember the exact details but Sherman's troops ambushed NBF's. NBF grabbed a Northern soldier and threw him over his horse and used him as sort of human shield as he escaped. Sherman said it was one of the more impressive things he has ever seen.
Rearguard action at Fallen Timbers on the retreat from Shiloh.
I lived in Hattiesburg MS for the fall semester of 5th grade. This would have been 1965. My reading teacher was a huge fan of NBF. We had at least one NBF reading assignment per week.
She would "explain" what we had read. NBF was always the hero. He was like a mythical super hero. What she told us may not of been 100% correct but it should have been!
She would "explain" what we had read. NBF was always the hero. He was like a mythical super hero. What she told us may not of been 100% correct but it should have been!
.
Superman wears NBF underwear.
Five of the Forrest siblings served in the Confederacy along with a couple of step brothers. NBF lost 2 of his brothers in the war. One was killed at Okolona and the other succumbed to pneumonia.
If you drive through Tennessee on I-40, you pass by the Nathan Bedford Forrest State Park.
The person that is not willing to fight and die, if need be, for his country has no right to life.
James Earl Rudder '32
January 31, 1945
James Earl Rudder '32
January 31, 1945
Halfway between Fort Donelson where he was surrounded but refused to surrender and Parker's Crossroad where he had Federals in his front and rear and ordered his men to "charge them both ways!"
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