Attacks on Wagon Trains

9,059 Views | 63 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by WestAustinAg
AEK
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AG
There is also they Hayfield Fight that took place a little further north in MT. Very similar to the Wagon Box Fight as I recall.

Edit: After looking it up, it actually happened the day before the Wagon Box Fight. Interesting.
Ulrich
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JJMt said:

Dr. Brown also said that the popular movie image of a wagon train with 10 to 20 wagons in it was largely incorrect. He said that during the height of the Oregon Trail there would literally be an unbroken stream of wagons from Missouri all the way to Oregon.

I have read excerpts of some of the journals of the immigrants and they also describe it that way. Unsurprisingly, they were a very fractious bunch of people, would get mad at the folks they had started with, and would then join up with the folks either right before them or right after them And keep doing that the entire length of the journey.

I have an addiction to back-of-the-envelope calculations, so:

That would mean a minimum of 800,000 people on the trail at any given time. 2,000 miles, 50 feet per wagon, 4 people per wagon.

A quick Google search says that 350,000 people total traveled the Oregon Trail over a 30 year period. That's 12,000 per year. I'm sure there was a peak, but still well short of the 800,000 people needed for an unbroken line.

Another way to look at it is that it was a three month trip, but they had to watch out for seasons. Someone leaving St. Louis just as the first train arrived in Oregon would be taking some pretty serious risks trying to cross high desert and northern mountains in late fall.

My numbers are very rough estimates, but I would like to see more support for the quoted assertion. Maybe it would be more fair to say that the ~12,000 people each year all left St. Louis at about the same time, so even though they were technically in separate trains they were all within a couple weeks of each other, and therefore could frequently see other trains?
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Ulrich
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It's 350,000 total, not per year. Only 12,000 per year. I think most people went by ship and eventually rail.
BQ78
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AG
Red Cloud is one of the most underrated Indian chiefs.

He is the only one to really cause the whites to abandon land back to the Indians.
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CanyonAg77
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AG
Nothing wrong with your math, but they would likely be bunched. Say a dozen or more, sometimes in trail, often parallel. Kind of like traffic now on interstates. Wads of vehicles then huge spaces.
Ulrich
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Ha, no worries. I'm not an expert or anything, just interested by the question. You raised a point that I hadn't considered before, and I think that point is true in spirit if not in literal fact.

Most of the knowledge I have comes from western novels, and now that I think about it, it's interesting how often there is a plot device that the wagon train is leaving too early or too late in the season. It adds the drama of freak spring blizzards/snowmelt floods or impending winter weather, but it also isolates the wagon train from help.
OverSeas AG
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Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess
DON'T TREAD ON ME
Stive
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The Mountain Meadow massacre made me remember something I read years back that I didn't really comprehend at that point.

In Louis Lamours book Bendigo Shaffer he refers to how rough/tonight/violent the Mormons could be in the late 1840's/'50's. I know he's not a historical reference on lots of stuff but usually when he referred to stuff like this it would have some authenticity. How violent were the Mormons during that stretch and why? Was it territorial? Were they nervous about outsiders because they were afraid of persecution or being run out?

I know very little history on that area and move west for them but now I'm curious.
OverSeas AG
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Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess
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OverSeas AG
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Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess
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tamc1956ag
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S
Thank you for the synopsis on Mormanism...not sure that's a word. I found this information very interesting...
Rabid Cougar
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AG
BQ78 said:

Red Cloud is one of the most underrated Indian chiefs.

He is the only one to really cause the whites to abandon land back to the Indians.
Gold Miners undid all of that.....
Rabid Cougar
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AG
The Santa Fe Trail, specially the Cimarron Cut Off, was not without it's perils too.
OverSeas AG
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APHIS AG
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who?mikejones said:

From Indian Depredations in Texas:

Quote:

It was in the same year that Satanta and Big Tree made their famous raid in Northwest Texas, upon which occasion they attacked a wagon train belonging to Henry Warren, while en route on the military road leading from Jackboro to Fort Griffin, in Shackelford county, The Indians killed seven out of the twelve teamsters, then fired the wagon train, with one of the teamsters chained to the wagon wheel, while yet alive, to be consumed amid the torturing flames.


Good non fiction book.
And very slanted against the Indian tribes.
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who?mikejones
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AG
APHIS AG said:

who?mikejones said:

From Indian Depredations in Texas:

Quote:

It was in the same year that Satanta and Big Tree made their famous raid in Northwest Texas, upon which occasion they attacked a wagon train belonging to Henry Warren, while en route on the military road leading from Jackboro to Fort Griffin, in Shackelford county, The Indians killed seven out of the twelve teamsters, then fired the wagon train, with one of the teamsters chained to the wagon wheel, while yet alive, to be consumed amid the torturing flames.


Good non fiction book.
And very slanted against the Indian tribes.


Well, of course it is. It's written by a settler who a part of the tip of the sword. I wouldn't expect it to be anything but heavily biased for his side.

Doesnt mean the guy's points and descriptions of the times aren't valuable to understanding the context of the era.
who?mikejones
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AG
First point is correct. The author is trying to tell the texian version of the truth for readers in the east.

I am not sure about the second paragraph.
terata
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AG
OverSeas Ag this is a book I read regarding the massacre:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1352262.Massacre_at_Mountain_Meadows

There are others that may be more telling, but Walker's story was certainly interesting.
OverSeas AG
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AG
Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess
DON'T TREAD ON ME
CanyonAg77
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AG
So the Mountain Meadows bunch, I assume they were on the Oregon Trail (and didn't die of dysentery)

I was reading some of the links and was surprised to see they departed from Harrison, Arkansas. It would be interesting to know the route they took from there to the trail.

Harrison caught my eye because my wife's best friend, from elementary school through A&M, lives in Harrison.
Bighunter43
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AG
CanyonAg77 said:

So the Mountain Meadows bunch, I assume they were on the Oregon Trail (and didn't die of dysentery)

I was reading some of the links and was surprised to see they departed from Harrison, Arkansas. It would be interesting to know the route they took from there to the trail.

Harrison caught my eye because my wife's best friend, from elementary school through A&M, lives in Harrison.
Pretty sure they were in southern Utah and on the way to California...not Oregon. (Not 100% sure on that though)
marcel ledbetter
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They were in Utah, I believe. Somewhere along the Wyoming/Idaho border, the Oregon Trail branched off into Utah. There was also the Overland trail that was roughly fifty miles or so south of the Oregon trail in Wyoming. The branch of the trail into Utah could take you through Northern Nevada into California via what is now present day Interstate 80. The trail probably had a different name by then, though. There were many Indian attacks of wagon trains along this trail, also.
CanyonAg77
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AG
I recall seeing trail swales in Idaho that were the Oregon Trail, and the California Trail. I think they branched near Idaho Falls
Aggie Infantry
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AG
Quote:

I don't know if it's true, but I've read (on-line, so it must be true) that there are no documented accounts of attacks on wagon trains by Native Americans.
Don't you mean American Indians?

When the truth comes out, do not ask me how I knew.
Ask yourself why you did not.
OverSeas AG
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AG
Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess
DON'T TREAD ON ME
WestAustinAg
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AG
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