I thought Fury, for all it's challenges, was as good, or better than, Private Ryan at capturing the intensity of the violence at an individual/small unit level.

I usually describe it to people who ask me how "real" it is that it captures the gritty, visceral intensity of combat very well.

From the list I would remove Inglorious *******s, Dirty Dozen, The Thin Red Line , Hurt Locker and Dunkirk. I have not seen 1917 yet so the jury is still out.

I would add:

1. Zulu.
2. Waterloo.
3. Bridges at Toko-Ri.
4. Battle of Britain
5. Black Hawk Down

cavscout96 said:

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I thought Fury, for all it's challenges, was as good, or better than, Private Ryan at capturing the intensity of the violence at an individual/small unit level.

I usually describe it to people who ask me how "real" it is that it captures the gritty, visceral intensity of combat very well.

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I know not movies but Band of Brothers and The Pacific really goes there.

Now that I've had a couple of days to reflect on the movie, I have some comments and questions about 1917.

Possible spoilers here

I don't buy that the German pilot pulled from the burning wreckage would have turned right around and stabbed his rescuer. I think the scene would have worked just as well if the German and Blake were sharing a smoke and enjoying the thrill of just being alive when suddenly the gasoline tank of the plane explodes, puncturing them both with deadly shrapnel.

The primary plot point of the movie is that Blake and Schofield have to make this arduous journey across the recently-abandoned German front line to deliver the message to the 2nd Devonshire at the line of departure. How did the 1,600 men in the 2nd Devonshire get to the line of departure? Wouldn't they have done that very recently, since the Germans had apparently just pulled back? Seems there would have been a fresh path for Blake & Schofield to follow.

Speaking of the 1,600 men in the 2nd Devonshire: isn't that a ridiculously small number of men to send after a German army, particularly if the goal is to knock the Germans out of the war? And they are attacking only with rifles? No machine guns or artillery?

Blake is a lance corporal and his big brother is a lieutenant? That seems implausible. Given the class system in Great Britain at the time (and extending well into WWII), they most likely would have both been enlisted/non-coms or they both would have been officers. (Working class = enlisted; upper class and aristocracy = officers.) Possibly the older brother won a battlefield commission (if the British did that sort of thing).

Given the urgency of the message (and coming from a General, going to a Colonel), it seems to me that they should have given Blake the military equivalent of a master hall pass that he could flash to anyone along the way in order to advance without question or interrogation. Also, aren't messengers supposed to be tight-lipped about the contents of the messages they are delivering? They seemed to blab it all to everyone within earshot.

Schofield for some reason reminds me a lot of Cameron in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Not that it impinges on the plot in any way. (Except that I kept expecting to see a persistent German soldier resembling Jeffrey Jones trying to track them down.)

Rabid Cougar said:

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cavscout96 said:

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I thought Fury, for all it's challenges, was as good, or better than, Private Ryan at capturing the intensity of the violence at an individual/small unit level.

I usually describe it to people who ask me how "real" it is that it captures the gritty, visceral intensity of combat very well.

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I know not movies but Band of Brothers and The Pacific really goes there.

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Yep, the Bastogne scenes In BoB are especially powerful television.

I haven't seen either. I need to check them both out, but I want to read the books first.

I'll never get through my reading list.....

30wedge said:

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My grandfather was gassed during the Meuse-Argonne Offensive. The Meuse-Argonne American Cemetery is amazing. It is the resting place of the largest number of American servicemen in all of Europe. It is on sloping ground and to stand at the chapel which sits high on a hill and to look down on over 14,000 headstones is a sight you won't ever forget.

The Meuse-Argonne American Memorial is also worth a visit. If you make the climb to the top you have a great view of the terrain and can grasp why the fighting there was so costly. It has 234 steps going up and the same number coming back down! I highly recommend seeing both.

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When I was a LT stationed in Germany, we did a staff ride through the Meuse-Argonne offensive, which our unit (6th Infantry, then part of the 5th Division) had been part of. Our 'tour guide' was a Colonel who was the military attache to the U.S. embassy in Paris. We walked through the actual path of the regiment's advance. The part that made the biggest impression on my was the place where the regiment had crossed the Meuse River (the 6th was the first to do so, according to our guide). The German positions were on the hills overlooking the valley and the river, and after crossing the river, the attacking units had to cross a canal which paralleled the river's course (except deeper, and with much steeper banks. The Meuse was fairly shallow, with gentle banks in that area). Looking at it from the perspective of an infantry platoon leader - **** that would have sucked.

We also visited the site of the Lost Battalion, what was thought to be the spot where Corporal York did his thing, the Trench of the Bayonets, the Ossuary memorial, and the Verdun Museum. All worth seeing.

Buck Compton said:

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Rabid Cougar said:

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cavscout96 said:

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I haven't seen either. I need to check them both out, but I want to read the books first.

I'll never get through my reading list.....

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I would watch them first then read the books, has more impact.

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Completely Agree

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Lt. Buck Compton agrees! How's the throwing arm?

Langenator said:

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30wedge said:

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My grandfather was gassed during the Meuse-Argonne Offensive. The Meuse-Argonne American Cemetery is amazing. It is the resting place of the largest number of American servicemen in all of Europe. It is on sloping ground and to stand at the chapel which sits high on a hill and to look down on over 14,000 headstones is a sight you won't ever forget.

The Meuse-Argonne American Memorial is also worth a visit. If you make the climb to the top you have a great view of the terrain and can grasp why the fighting there was so costly. It has 234 steps going up and the same number coming back down! I highly recommend seeing both.

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When I was a LT stationed in Germany, we did a staff ride through the Meuse-Argonne offensive, which our unit (6th Infantry, then part of the 5th Division) had been part of. Our 'tour guide' was a Colonel who was the military attache to the U.S. embassy in Paris. We walked through the actual path of the regiment's advance. The part that made the biggest impression on my was the place where the regiment had crossed the Meuse River (the 6th was the first to do so, according to our guide). The German positions were on the hills overlooking the valley and the river, and after crossing the river, the attacking units had to cross a canal which paralleled the river's course (except deeper, and with much steeper banks. The Meuse was fairly shallow, with gentle banks in that area). Looking at it from the perspective of an infantry platoon leader - **** that would have sucked.

We also visited the site of the Lost Battalion, what was thought to be the spot where Corporal York did his thing, the Trench of the Bayonets, the Ossuary memorial, and the Verdun Museum. All worth seeing.

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It really is amazing to see. Your comment about how it would have sucked to be attacking and having to cross a canal or shallow river brought to mind something I thought about every day of our tour in France. Before the trip, I had no idea about the terrain in France. But visiting battlefields in those rolling hills and thinking about our boys having to attack uphill in so many places where the Germans held the high ground really made an impression on me.

We spent an hour and change in Belleau Wood and I would have liked to have spent 5 or 6 hours there. It is a very haunting place. Huge, huge trees and shell holes everywhere. I split off from the group a ways and walked off into the trees. In places there would be a cluster of shell holes, 3, 4, maybe 5 all bunched together. I walked far enough away that I could no longer hear the voices of those in our group or the voices of other tourists and I heard no birds or other wildlife. Though it was peacefully quiet during my wandering through the woods, I imagine it was one hell of an affront on the ears in June, 1918.

Watched the movie tonight with the wife. Bryan Suits on KFI has been recommending it and that you see it on the big screen (versus an airplane where I watch most of my movies).

I only spotted one anachronism Mark IV Tankbut I also know nothing about the British rifles or uniforms of the period.

The movie was absolutely fantastic on the big screen.

One part that didn't make any sense to me has already been mentioned - "blabbing about your mission"

There are a few questions I have about personnel. Maybe somebody who knows more about how colonials serving in the British military were handled.

Question 1
I counted about 3 individual soldiers of African appearance. During The Great War, would individual Black/African soldiers have been incorporated into units as Infantrymen? That one didn't seem right.

Question 2
During the riding in the back of the truck scene, there's a lone Sikh soldier. Like my previous question about African or Caribbean Colonials serving, would an individual Sikh soldier have served as an Infantryman?

Brian Suits...wow. I remember listening to him back in 2001-2002, when he was on KVI 570 out of Seattle, back when I was stationed at Fort Lewis.

Disclaimer: I haven't seen the movie. But there's one scene from the trailer that had me screaming at the screen. The bit where the plane is coming at them, about the crash, and they run directly away from it, into the barn. "Run laterally, you stupid m*****f***ers!" (In fairness, this is a common problem that a lot of movie characters have - running away in the same line as the thing coming at them, when they could easily dodge by going sideways. Looks dramatic on camera.)

in regards to question 2, British Indian Army battalions served on the western front. They would be composed of Indian troops with British officers. Individual Indian soldiers were not mixed into normal line/guard battalions but served with their own battalions. However he could have served as a batman to a officer and was conducting business for that officer.

In regards to question 1, after Britain joined the First World War on 4 August 1914, Black recruits could be found in all branches of the armed forces. From 1914 Black Britons volunteered at recruitment centers.

Langenator said:

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Brian Suits...wow. I remember listening to him back in 2001-2002, when he was on KVI 570 out of Seattle, back when I was stationed at Fort Lewis.

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He does a pretty good military show at 8pm PST on Saturday nights on KFI.

He's got a few biases that irritate me (anti-Southerner for one) and I think these biases cause him to miss out sometimes on perspective but, by and large, he touches on some really good military and world conflict related topics.

Thanks. I watch a fair few Bollywood movies so I'm well aware of the Sikh Regiment, etc. but, it was the individual soldiers being mixed in that surprised me a little bit.

This is going to sound really funny but, I frequently listen to a form of rap called "Grime" (Stormzy, Wiley, Dizzee Rascal, to name a few) performed by Black/African Brits so, I'm aware of the integration with modern British culture. I just didn't really know how far back in history that went. i.e. pre-dated WWI. Of course by 1917, they might have been in such need of troops that they would take anybody who was willing to serve - or I assume they must have also had a draft.

I guess there's question #3. Were the British soldiers in WWI conscripts, or volunteers? I assume both.

Along with the Sikh, the prevalence of blacks soldiers in the Devonshires bothered me. I saw more blacks in the regiment in the movie than I saw this summer when I spent a week in Devon.