Watching Black Hawk Down - How accurate is this movie?

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gigemhilo
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I think there has been a debate on the number of Somalis killed in the action, but from what I understand it is pretty accurate as far as the timeline of what happened.
Apache
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I can't speak to the accuracy, but it follows Bowden's book pretty well which was based off exhaustive eye witness interviews.
ja86
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It was a pretty intense situation. They do change some names from who was actually there and it does follow bowden''s book (which is a good read btw) as apache mentioned above.
Rabid Cougar
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They morph several individual "stories" from the book into one person in the movie.
Rabid Cougar
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Just spoke with Corps outfit buddy who was there.

Says that the Rangers are not accurately portrayed in the movie. He says the Rangers in the movie act like "regular" infantry. Said Mike Steele's (Rangers) men loved and respected him.

Says that Griz Martin and the Operators at the base were no nonsense, true professionals 24/7.

There were LOTS more Somali's in the streets than is portrayed in the movie but says the streets were just as wide as they are in the movie. Says " got that part right". The number of Somali's killed is classified.

Said the situation was just as bad if not more so in real life.
Apache
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Quote:

the Operators at the base were no nonsense, true professionals 24/7.
Watched the scene where one of the Deltas is in chow line with his rifle slung on his shoulder with the safety off. When he gets called out on it, he holds up his trigger finger & says "this is my safety".
Always wondered if that is BS or something similar to that actually happened.
aalan94
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Quote:

Quote:

the Operators at the base were no nonsense, true professionals 24/7.

Watched the scene where one of the Deltas is in chow line with his rifle slung on his shoulder with the safety off. When he gets called out on it, he holds up his trigger finger & says "this is my safety".

Always wondered if that is BS or something similar to that actually happened.

Anything's possible, but I know no one in the modern military who takes that stuff so cavalierly and gets away with it. If you're in the Marines and you say that **** near a gunny, I don't care if you're special ops or a general, he'll tear your head off and stomp out your guts. If you saw the Pacific, where the gunny tears up some Captain for flagging people, this is EXACTLY like it would happen, and should happen. This isn't just basic training stuff (a lot of that goes away when you're downrange), but in certain areas, and weapons safety is one, there is not much tolerance for BS.

In training, I had a young kid under my command (an 18 year old submariner deploying to Iraq). He screwed up and fired a blank round into a clearing barrel. The army sergeants were all over me. He's my responsibility. I had to fill out paperwork and the chiefs and I set up some "reeducation" for the kid. It was a big hubbub, over a blank. There's a reason: because you train like you fight. Now, if stuff like this was overlooked in previous wars, I get that, there was a lot of laziness. But it certainly doesn't happen in the War on Terror age, and I'd guess Black Hawk Down isn't too much different. That being said, Special Ops guys are *******s and think they own the world, so it's not impossible that he said it. It's impossible that he meant it. (If you can get the distinction).

I've been in 2 wars, but not technically combat. (I've had IDF, but no DF). I have some perspective, but not absolute perspective, so would invite others to chime in.
Rabid Cougar
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aalan94 said:

Quote:

Quote:

the Operators at the base were no nonsense, true professionals 24/7.

Watched the scene where one of the Deltas is in chow line with his rifle slung on his shoulder with the safety off. When he gets called out on it, he holds up his trigger finger & says "this is my safety".

Always wondered if that is BS or something similar to that actually happened.

Anything's possible, but I know no one in the modern military who takes that stuff so cavalierly and gets away with it. If you're in the Marines and you say that **** near a gunny, I don't care if you're special ops or a general, he'll tear your head off and stomp out your guts. If you saw the Pacific, where the gunny tears up some Captain for flagging people, this is EXACTLY like it would happen, and should happen. This isn't just basic training stuff (a lot of that goes away when you're downrange), but in certain areas, and weapons safety is one, there is not much tolerance for BS.

In training, I had a young kid under my command (an 18 year old submariner deploying to Iraq). He screwed up and fired a blank round into a clearing barrel. The army sergeants were all over me. He's my responsibility. I had to fill out paperwork and the chiefs and I set up some "reeducation" for the kid. It was a big hubbub, over a blank. There's a reason: because you train like you fight. Now, if stuff like this was overlooked in previous wars, I get that, there was a lot of laziness. But it certainly doesn't happen in the War on Terror age, and I'd guess Black Hawk Down isn't too much different. That being said, Special Ops guys are *******s and think they own the world, so it's not impossible that he said it. It's impossible that he meant it. (If you can get the distinction).

I've been in 2 wars, but not technically combat. (I've had IDF, but no DF). I have some perspective, but not absolute perspective, so would invite others to chime in.

From personal observations... If you want to encourage the Wrath of God, flag (point loaded weapon) a vehicle or a dismount from your own convoy with an MRAP turret in RED status (loaded with round in chamber). If you were around local military, it was absolutely insane. US Mil would go ape **** on them, rightfully so.
aalan94
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Rabid, I agree wholeheartedly. I think the difference is that the U.S. military at all levels has gotten more professional. Back in the day, you'd see a guy with a finger on a trigger and that might come off as "cool" but today, everyone - particularly those well-trained like spec ops, is basically rote memory trained to have that finger pointing forward until ready to engage. Friendly fire casualties are about the worst thing that can happen and you'd better bet that spec ops guys are no more likely to risk blowing off their buddy's heads.

As for flagging, I got flagged a lot by some of our allies - the Macedonians were the worst - but almost never by an American. I did see some poor discipline, things like an AF female who wore her M-4 slung on her back instead of front. I don't pull rank that often, but I corrected her, because we had Afghans on base and it would be very easy for one of them to grab the rifle, cut her sling and he's good to go. I generally think most of our Afghans were good, and if we had Taliban or Haqqani on base, it was mostly in a spying capacity. I did stop guys from going into the chow hall without going through security. Probably confused guys, but you can never take chances. If a suicide bomber got into a chow hall, that would be about the worst scenario possible.

Back to our allies, I think they were probably the biggest threat I faced. While I was there, there were Poles and Romanians who inadvertently discharged while "cleaning" their rifles. The Pole shot through a wall and struck an Australian (if I remember right) in the leg. The Romanian fortunately shot another Romanian. Everyone survived those incidents.

I did see other stupid crap. There was an Albanian guy who duct-taped his magazine into his pistol. Either it was falling out, which is stupid, or he's just stupid.
Teddy KGB
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aalan94 said:


Anything's possible, but I know no one in the modern military who takes that stuff so cavalierly and gets away with it.
I served in 1/75 Rgr in the 90s. I got the pleasure to meet Sgt. Struecker (the driver of the humvee in the movie) while in RIP at Ft. Benning. And by pleasure I mean hazed.

I knew lots of guys that went on to Delta. People in Battalion referred to it as "4th Ranger Battalion" when I was in.

I totally can believe that happened. In the peace time Army all those guys did was shoot. They shot everyday of the week typically. It is my understanding they kept their weapons and and ammunition in their personal lockers. It's not them being cavalier as it is they are just that good. I had a friend go up to train with them at Bragg. He told me they demonstrated an aircraft assault with the rangers sitting in the seats of the plane next to the target dummies using live ammunition. The snipers would zero their rifles with their team member standing directly next to the target and pointing to where the hit was on the target. Standing there while the snipers fired just to make sure I'm clear on this. They trained very hard and very realistically. A squad leader in my platoon was selected and was seriously injured in Delta training with a door breaching charge. Also, your rank didn't matter for the most part. They valued your experience on the team more than how long you had been in the Army or your rank. They didn't really wear uniforms either. No military hair standards. The didn't give a f@%! more or less. Only thing that mattered was your ability to perform. So it is totally believable in my eyes. They were not amateurs/noobs/rangers privates. Following Somalia the rumor was there was some animosity between the units due to the possibility of blue on blue fire during the initial assault by the way.

My best friend in the Army went on to Delta and got out after 10 years which was kinda unheard of. It's a place you retire from for the most part. I asked him why, and in starting his explanation he told me, "Well, it's not like I don't miss killing people..." I think that is a nice summation of their culture.

P.S. It's totally badass to ride on the bench seat of a little bird. The 160th are some amazing pilots.
Teddy KGB
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One more thing. As an example of how they trained, watch the movie 6 days about the Iranian Embassy siege in London. Delta was modeled after the SAS and it show how they trained with live ammo.
Rabid Cougar
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Teddy KGB said:

Quote:

P.S. It's totally badass to ride on the bench seat of a little bird. The 160th are some amazing pilots.

Just hired a former 160th CH-47 crewman. He recognized Fob Wright, Afghanistan on my screen saver and said "I've been there". Turns out I probably flew on his bird once or four times in 2011.

You are right...piloting a 47 in those mountains at night at those altitudes takes big balls and you just along for the ride.
pagerman @ work
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aalan94 said:

Rabid, I agree wholeheartedly. I think the difference is that the U.S. military at all levels has gotten more professional. Back in the day, you'd see a guy with a finger on a trigger and that might come off as "cool" but today, everyone - particularly those well-trained like spec ops, is basically rote memory trained to have that finger pointing forward until ready to engage. Friendly fire casualties are about the worst thing that can happen and you'd better bet that spec ops guys are no more likely to risk blowing off their buddy's heads.

As for flagging, I got flagged a lot by some of our allies - the Macedonians were the worst - but almost never by an American. I did see some poor discipline, things like an AF female who wore her M-4 slung on her back instead of front. I don't pull rank that often, but I corrected her, because we had Afghans on base and it would be very easy for one of them to grab the rifle, cut her sling and he's good to go. I generally think most of our Afghans were good, and if we had Taliban or Haqqani on base, it was mostly in a spying capacity. I did stop guys from going into the chow hall without going through security. Probably confused guys, but you can never take chances. If a suicide bomber got into a chow hall, that would be about the worst scenario possible.

Back to our allies, I think they were probably the biggest threat I faced. While I was there, there were Poles and Romanians who inadvertently discharged while "cleaning" their rifles. The Pole shot through a wall and struck an Australian (if I remember right) in the leg. The Romanian fortunately shot another Romanian. Everyone survived those incidents.

I did see other stupid crap. There was an Albanian guy who duct-taped his magazine into his pistol. Either it was falling out, which is stupid, or he's just stupid.

Lowly civilian here but I was I Iraq 06-08. One of the bases I worked on was in Mosul. Our little group of buildings were on of the first you would come to as you drove on to the base and you crested this little hill. So one day a group of four humvees pulls up in our parking lot and the officer in charge of this group comes over and starts asking for directions to somewhere on the base (they were apparently from a different base and sent/transferred (Im sure there is an acronym the military uses for this) to Mosul but didn't know where they were supposed to go once they got on base). So several of us civilians (3-4) were standing there trying to help this officer when suddenly one of the M2's on the turret of one of the humvee's fires. Scared the living sh/t out of us as we were in front of the weapon (thankfully the barrel was pointed skyward). Loud as hell.

So everything stops and is quiet and after a couple of seconds you hear one of the soldiers in the humvee laughingly but loudly say "Ooooh sh/t! Ooooooh sh/t!" Because he knew what was about to happen. The officer stops talking, his whole demeanor changed and says "excuse me" in a really gruff manner and starts to quickly walk over to the vehicle the shot came from. At that point we decided the best thing for us to do was head back inside and give the officer the space he needed to handle the situation without any prying outside eyes.

I've always wondered how bad that kid's life got following that. I've also assumed that whatever happened was made worse because he did it in front of a bunch of civilians.

Ciboag96
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Reading about "flagging" reminded me of my CHL instructor. Quiet, polite, nice guy. We go into the range to shoot and a lady taking the course fires a few and turns to tell the instructor how well she did, with the pistol, pointing it at him. He went freakin ballistic. Screamed at her nose-to-nose, ripping the pistol out of her hand, screamed at her all the way to the door and out.

Guy next to me said "musta been a Marine." Found our later he was a retired Marine.

Dumb story but your stories reminded me of that. Soft and nice to losing his **** in a nanosecond.
P.H. Dexippus
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Watching the "Alamo" scene with Gordon and Shughart always leaves me humbled and a bit angry.

Quote:

Dead Hero's Father Tears into Clinton
London Sunday Times

May 29, 1994, Sunday

BYLINE: James Adams

It was the moment President Bill Clinton wanted to restore his tattered reputation with the military before his departure for the D-Day celebrations in Europe this week, James Adams reports.

He had just presented posthumous Congressional Medals of Honour, America's highest military decoration, to the widows of two soldiers for valour in Somalia. After inviting the families for a moment of quiet reflection in the Oval Office, the president approached Herbert Shughart, the father of one of the two soldiers, and offered his hand.

To his astonishment the handshake was declined. "You are not fit to be president of the United States," said Shughart Senior. "The blame for my son's death rests with the White House and with you. You are not fit to command."

The president reeled and the unprecedented onslaught continued for some minutes. According to witnesses it was a "highly charged emotional moment" which resulted in Clinton trying to explain to Shughart,Sr. why the events of that day last October were not his fault.

Shughart and his colleague, both sergeants, were killed trying to rescue fellow rangers from a vicious fire-fight in which 18 died and 75 were wounded. A later Pentagon investigation revealed that the troops had been refused the right equipment and there was no political or military plan to justify the Americ an presence in Somalia. Although the president has tried to escape the blame, he is largely credited with the failure of the whole American effort to bring peace to Somalia. According to witnesses to the Oval Office scene, the Shughart family remained unconvinced by the president's arguments.

"The medal doesn't help anything, other than that we are grateful that Randy will be remembered in such an honourable way," said Lois Shughart, the soldier's mother.
Rabid Cougar
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Sgt. Dominick Pilla and Cpl. Jamie Smith Day in New Jersey
CT'97
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Apache said:

Quote:

the Operators at the base were no nonsense, true professionals 24/7.
Watched the scene where one of the Deltas is in chow line with his rifle slung on his shoulder with the safety off. When he gets called out on it, he holds up his trigger finger & says "this is my safety".
Always wondered if that is BS or something similar to that actually happened.
Pat McNamara: Why Your Carbine Should Be on 'Safe' During a Mag Change

Here is a link to a video on the subject of using your safety. Pat McNamara was a senior shooting instructor at 1st SOF-D for a long time. I'll let the video speak for it self on the subject of slinging your weapon with the safely off.
Teddy KGB
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I watched this video a while back and it is really worth the time to hear the conversation.

Also, if you have Amazon Prime there is a great documentary about the 10th Mountain QRF and there efforts to relieve TF Ranger. Blackhawk Down: The Untold Story. Listening to their stories I am amazed that there were not more wounded in the action.
bkag9824
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Apache said:

Quote:

the Operators at the base were no nonsense, true professionals 24/7.
Watched the scene where one of the Deltas is in chow line with his rifle slung on his shoulder with the safety off. When he gets called out on it, he holds up his trigger finger & says "this is my safety".
Always wondered if that is BS or something similar to that actually happened.
If you do enough digging you'll find comments from former SFOD guys that something as simple as an unintended flashlight discharge (turning on a flashlight when not supposed to) gets guys kicked out of The Unit...forever.

Can't find the link due to work filter, but google George Hand SOFREP and you can probably find some of his comments on the matter.

Apache
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Quote:

I'll let the video speak for it self on the subject of slinging your weapon with the safely off.

Love Pat Mc & have handled guns as long as I can remember. I would never walk around with one in the chamber off safe. Honestly I don't even think about clicking the safety off when shooting... it's just automatic.

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