Was the U.S. cavalry and army in the Od West

2,773 Views | 26 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by Martin Cash
Gomer95
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
4:43p, 8/25/18
AG
Sorry for the topic goof up. I meant to put as the title: Were the U.S Cavalry and Army of the Old West honorable soldiers or bad guys like we see in the movies a lot?

A lot of times these days in movies it seems that the U.S. Cavalry and Army in the Old West is portrayed as rough, unprofessional, "bad guys" that hated Indians and are portrayed generally in a bad light. Recently when rewatching Dances with Wolves I was reminded that all of the officers except the lieutenant with the dark hair and beard were bad. He was good but just one man. The movie "Hostiles" presented a better portrayal of them but a conflicted one. I know there can always be a bad apple or element but I have a hard time believing that most of the U.S. Cavalry and Army was all bad back then. Were most of them honorable soldiers? How accurate are most movie portrayals of them?
Reply Quote
1 edit
BQ78
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
5:05p, 8/25/18
AG
As a professional army it was a step down from the Civil War armies. It was made up largely of recent European immigrants Who didn't have better options. They typically acquitted themselves well in the Indian Wars despite these weaknesses and others in weapons and mobility. Really the post war army got beat twice at Fort Phil Kearny and the Little Big Horn and only committed one outright atrocity at Wa****a, as long as you don't consider total warfare an atrocity
Reply Quote
1 edit
who?mikejones
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:56p, 8/25/18
AG
From what ive read, it was pretty rough.
Reply Quote
Sapper Redux
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BQ78 • 8:21p, 8/25/18
BQ78 said:
As a professional army it was a step down from the Civil War armies. It was made up largely of recent European immigrants Who didn't have better options. They typically acquitted themselves well in the Indian Wars despite these weaknesses and others in weapons and mobility. Really the post war army got beat twice at Fort Phil Kearny and the Little Big Horn and only committed one outright atrocity at Wa****a, as long as you don't consider total warfare an atrocity


I'd say the Baker Massacre and Wounded Knee were pretty bad on the atrocity scale. Overall I would agree. It's harder to measure combat success in that kind of conflict. So many fights were very small scale running fights.
Reply Quote
1
aalan94
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
3:43a, 8/26/18
AG
The soldiers may have changed, but the officers were almost all Civil War veterans. So for anyone who tries to maintain the case that the Union Army was pure as the driven snow and the Indian fighting army was a bunch of Mongol hordesmen, that's not sustainable. The answer, as it usually is, is somewhat in between.
Reply Quote
JABQ04
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
4:21a, 8/26/18
AG
On the 21-23 of September my re-enactment company will be doing a post war occupation of Fort McKavett. Looking forward to spending time out there as well as getting a brief taste of what being stationed in Texas post ACW was like
Reply Quote
Rabid Cougar
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
1:19p, 8/26/18
AG
Check out the book "Forty Miles a Day on Beans and Hay" by Don Rickey


Reply Quote
1
Rabid Cougar
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to JABQ04 • 1:24p, 8/26/18
AG
JABQ04 said:
On the 21-23 of September my re-enactment company will be doing a post war occupation of Fort McKavett. Looking forward to spending time out there as well as getting a brief taste of what being stationed in Texas post ACW was like
Pre, during or post civil war unit????
Reply Quote
JABQ04
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Rabid Cougar • 2:06p, 8/26/18
AG
It's post-Civil War. I can't remember the exact unit we are looking at portraying. I glanced through the list of things we're doing and it's nothing sexy. Lots of guard duty, fatigue details, cooking, etc. just a weekend of daily life out west.


Edit. Just checked email and we are portraying a company Of Infantry and the year is 1868. We will be sleeping in the barracks on site. They did this about 12 years ago and I missed it then because I was playing real Army, but consensus was it was a great event so I'm looking forward to it.
Reply Quote
1
4 edits
BQ78
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Sapper Redux • 9:49a, 8/27/18
AG
I forgot about the Baker Massacre that one is not well known but purposely left off Wounded Knee as a question mark, absolutely the slaughter was one sided and the discipline of a few soldiers might not have been the best but like the Kent State Shootings, what happened is clouded in conflicting reports. If several braves pulled their weapons and leveled them at me, I might have fired first too.
Reply Quote
IDAGG
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to BQ78 • 1:17p, 8/27/18
AG
BQ78 said:
As a professional army it was a step down from the Civil War armies. It was made up largely of recent European immigrants Who didn't have better options. They typically acquitted themselves well in the Indian Wars despite these weaknesses and others in weapons and mobility.
A few years ago I sat through a presentation by the Park Historian at the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument. He basically echoed what you mention above about the composition of Custer's unit and the Army in general at that point in history. He mentioned the percentage of troops that were foreign born. I don't remember the percentage and don't want to exaggerate, but I thought it was over half. He said they weren't particularly well trained but acquitted themselves in battle pretty well.
Reply Quote
Rabid Cougar
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
2:12p, 8/27/18
AG
The U.S. Army had 25,000 men in 1876.

4,000 were in the 10 cavalry regiments spread amongst 55 outpost across the west and generally surrounded by bad guys. A very mundane life except routine patrols could become deadly very quickly.

Sounds a whole lot like Afghanistan.
Reply Quote
5
JABQ04
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
2:43p, 8/27/18
AG
I saw a neat show on Custers Last Stand years ago, I think it was battlefield detectives, where the followed the movements of Soldiers and Indians by using the firing pin indentions in spent casings to track individuals. Several interesting things brought up were: 1) the Indians were better armed and 2) the romantic notion of a last stand was simply myth. Minimal organized resistance by the 7th until the last handful made it to Last Stand Hill and fell there. More of a running gun fight until the end. Also odd were the locations of some of the remains. Several of the Troop commanders were found on last stand Hill while the remains of their troop were wiped out other places. Very interesting.

Reply Quote
1
IDAGG
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to JABQ04 • 3:48p, 8/27/18
AG
If you are ever in the area I highly recommend a couple of hours at the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument. It IS in the middle of nowhere between Billings and Sheridan. I had read several accounts of the battle. Even still, it was enlightening to see the actual battlefield. To your point they have little markers where troopers and Indians died and they are spread out quite a ways, with of course a cluster at the last stand. It does appear as a running battle.

Also, it was interesting to see just how far away Reno/Benteen and their men were from Custer. It wasn't "just down the ridge" It was quite a bit down the ridge.
Reply Quote
2
(removed:110205)
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:20a, 8/28/18
Could you recommend the best overall book on the battle of the Llittle Bighorn
Reply Quote
JABQ04
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
12:12p, 8/28/18
AG
"A Terrible Glory" by James Donovan
"Son of the Morning Star" by Evan S Connell
"The Last Stand" by Nathaniel Philbrick

I own all three of these and are great reads. "Son of the Morning Star" was also a TV mini-series in the early '90s and probably the most accurate video depiction of events. Interesting aside; when I hiked Philmont in summer 1998 I snuck a book about the littlebighorn in my pack and humped it through the mountains of New Mexico, much to the dismay of my father. Nice to read around the campfire at night.
Reply Quote
CanyonAg77
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
12:17p, 8/28/18
AG
Some of the commanders of the day were top notch. I'm thinking about the Red River Wars in my area where Sheridan was in overall command, and Nelson Miles and Ranald McKenzie were sub commanders. Several MOH were given, including to Francis Baldwin, who also received one in the Civil War

They have also done some battle tracing of those battles, also by tracking individual weapons.

Fascinating stuff
Reply Quote
1
Bighunter43
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:28p, 8/28/18
AG
http://www.history-magazine.com/cavalry.html

Here is a pretty good read on who filled the ranks of most cavalry units out west! Growing up in a household that watched every John Wayne movie 50 times, (Rio Grande, Fort Apache, She Wore A Yellow Ribbon....John Ford's cavalry trilogy)...one would come to the conclusion that most were honorable, well disciplined soldiers. It looked somewhat glamorous and there was always some kind of "action" going on! In reality, from a few works I've read, about 90% of the time it was boring, basic work details. I'm not sure about the discipline, but you'd think with some competent former CW officers running things...there had to be some form of discipline! I think Ford showed 2 truths in his films: 1.) In All 3 of those movies show a large portion of the rank and file being immigrants, of Irish descent in particular! 2.) You've got some recruits joining up who were fleeing some sort of legal troubles, such as Ben Johnson's character in Rio Grande! A 3rd interesting possible "truth", is in She Wore A Yellow Ribbon....trooper Tyree (Ben Johnson) is a former CSA soldier, and Trooper Smith is supposedly a former CSA officer forbidden to join up, but is using the assumed name of Smith. His real name is Rube Clay, former Brigadier General of the CSA...they have a nice funeral for him and put a Rebel Flag over him at burial! Did former CSA officers join up under assumed names? According to Forty Miles A Day....many did. Hard to prove that one...perhaps Ford was just interjecting a "lost cause" scene... Obviously, these movies are "dated", and the story lines might be pure Hollywood, but there are some small truths mixed in! (And it's pleasure to watch former rodeo star Ben Johnson ride and do his own stunts)....of course this cavalry is stark contrast to Costner's Dances With Wolves cavalry which further serves the purpose of helping the viewer side with the Sioux! Interesting topic for sure!
Reply Quote
3
4 edits
Rabid Cougar
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to JABQ04 • 9:45a, 8/29/18
AG
JABQ04 said:
I saw a neat show on Custers Last Stand years ago, I think it was battlefield detectives, where the followed the movements of Soldiers and Indians by using the firing pin indentions in spent casings to track individuals. Several interesting things brought up were: 1) the Indians were better armed and 2) the romantic notion of a last stand was simply myth. Minimal organized resistance by the 7th until the last handful made it to Last Stand Hill and fell there. More of a running gun fight until the end. Also odd were the locations of some of the remains. Several of the Troop commanders were found on last stand Hill while the remains of their troop were wiped out other places. Very interesting.
In 1983 they had a grass fire that swept over the battlefield. In 1984, the archeologist took advantage of the exposed ground and what they found was really outstanding. There was no overwhelming charge until the very end. As you said, it was a running gun fight and the natives isolated soldiers and killed them one by one. If you read the archeological reports ,read Son of Morning Star and then visit the site, which I had the opportunity in 2006, it is very awe inspiring to it first hand.

To view the terrain ( example - Deep Ravine) it had to be a terrifying experience for the soldiers. They were literally being stalked and hunted like game. And they were vastly outgunned. The quantity of repeating rifles the natives had was a tremendous force magnifier.

I rank that battlefield right up there with Sharpsburg and Gettysburg if you ever want to get that "feeling".
Reply Quote
1
Rabid Cougar
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to (removed:110205) • 9:46a, 8/29/18
AG
Sid said:
Could you recommend the best overall book on the battle of the Llittle Bighorn
In addition to the ones already mentioned I highly recommend

Uncovering History: Archaeological Investigations at the Little Bighorn

By Douglas D. Scott

Reply Quote
1
1 edit
Gomer95
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:51a, 8/29/18
AG
Thanks for all of these replies! They're all very interesting!
Reply Quote
JABQ04
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Rabid Cougar • 11:31a, 8/29/18
AG
About to buy a new car, so maybe a good place for the 1st road trip.

And all this talk is making me want to re-read a book or two
Reply Quote
1
1 edit
Rabid Cougar
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to JABQ04 • 9:43a, 8/30/18
AG
JABQ04 said:


And all this talk is making me want to re-read a book or two
Beat you to it. Started Morning Star last night.
Reply Quote
1
JR69
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
12:06p, 8/30/18
AG
One of the best accounts of the Indian Wars on the Northern Plains is Lakota and Cheyenne, Indian Views of the Great Sioux War, 1876-1877, by Jerome A. Greene, published by the University of Oklahoma Press. This book chronicles all the major encounters between the Indians, Lakota and Cheyenne, and the US Army, from the Battle of Powder River in March of 1876 to the Death of Crazy Horse in September of 1877. The story is primarily told by the Indian participants in these battles. Their perspective is quite different from what you will find in most other writings on the subject.
Reply Quote
1
JABQ04
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Rabid Cougar • 2:21p, 8/30/18
AG
Ha. Nice. I picked up " A Terrible Glory" again. Trying to get a better understand of the 5 companies with custer at the end
Reply Quote
1
1 edit
GSPag`
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:56p, 8/31/18
My Great Great Grandfather served as an "Indian Scout" for Custer. He was of the Ute Nation and was sent by Chief Ouray. Family story goes that he and many others met with the cadre the evening before the battle and warned that the Sioux were too strong.

He and many other scouts went awol that night because they thought it was folly to engage with the plains tribes. It has always been an interesting family story. He lived 102 years. Native to the end. Loved to gamble. Owned and lost many farms and ranches through his life.
Reply Quote
1
Rabid Cougar
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to GSPag` • 3:26p, 9/1/18
AG
GSPag` said:
My Great Great Grandfather served as an "Indian Scout" for Custer. He was of the Ute Nation and was sent by Chief Ouray. Family story goes that he and many others met with the cadre the evening before the battle and warned that the Sioux were too strong.

He and many other scouts went awol that night because they thought it was folly to engage with the plains tribes. It has always been an interesting family story. He lived 102 years. Native to the end. Loved to gamble. Owned and lost many farms and ranches through his life.
Could he not have been Crow or Arikara????




Reply Quote
Martin Cash
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:40p, 9/1/18
AG
Watch "They Died With Their Boots On" for an accurate portrayal of the US Army in the West.
Reply Quote
1
Refresh
Page 1 of 1
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.