Ellis Island, last week, and why we all ought to go there, periodically

2,508 Views | 13 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by IDAGG
Vestal_Flame
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AG
My wife and I took our daughters, 4 and 9, and my mother to Ellis Island last week.

My wife and I had been there, separately, before, but it was a first trip for Mom. There are some places where the story is really important, and the story can only be fully communicated by visiting the place. Normandy and Dachau had a similar "place explains a really important narrative" feeling for me.

I think that Ellis Island is one of those places. The story matters to all of us. I think that we accomplished something genuinely useful with the trip.

My mother's paternal grandfather immigrated to Brooklyn through Ellis Island. Mom knew him, but he never spoke to her of the hardship of his passage to the new world.

She had never really connected to the immigrant narrative aspects of his life. She only knew him when he was old, established, and relatively prosperous and secure, surrounded by 8 of his 9 sons. Worse still, she was nine when he died. So, she never had a chance to ask any real questions about his life. I know more about him from official records than he ever told her.

Ellis Island managed to communicate to her exactly how difficult and frightening an experience it was. When we were at the registration desk, my wife worked through a sample ship's passenger manifest with the girls. Then I pulled my phone out of my pocket, pulled up the manifest for Pasquale (RMS Republic, January 6, 1906), handed it to my daughter and mother, and said, "Read line 7." Pasquale could neither read nor write. He had $10 in his pocket. And he was in a country where he did not speak the dominant language. At that point, it suddenly turned personal for them.

And my mother suddenly comprehended the difficulty and privation inherent in the experience (e.g., 14 days from Naples, I suspect throwing up for much of it in the North Atlantic in winter). Then there was the process of getting through immigration. I think that Mom was expecting immigration processing at Ellis Island to be like stepping off of a plane at an international airport. The idea of being put through a medical examination or a psychological examination somewhat terrified her, especially because she suffers from one or more of the conditions of possible medical exclusion.

And then there was New York. We were staying down in Alphabet City. I tried to explain to my Mom that, in Pasquale's time, our apartment was probably a very different place with a dozen people living in it and probably no bathroom, on a dirty street (choked in filth and smoke and horse **** and mud). Rampant disease. And he was a kid from the countryside.

I suspect that Pasquale never mentioned it to her, because it was merely that this aspect of life was hard, and life had always been hard, and it had somehow gotten better during the 1910s-20s and the1940s.

We've lost something as a people when we lose track of the great difficulties that our ancestors faced in getting here. At the least, we have lost the capacity for meaningful compassion and sympathy toward the people experiencing those difficulties now.

My Mom needed to go to that place to be inculcated into that narrative. I needed to go there, myself, I think, to be renewed in that compassion.

I am interested to know what places you have visited that say to you, "Yeah, this narrative is important, and you can only internalize it by seeing the place where it happened."
BQ78
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AG
Quote:

I am interested to know what places you have visited that say to you, "Yeah, this narrative is important, and you can only internalize it by seeing the place where it happened."
Andersonville. I had seen the photos but actually being there the first time and seeing the slope most of the prisoners had to live on and the marshy creek that flowed through it that became their latrine. What a terrible place to locate a camp.
HollywoodBQ
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The medical exams, etc. Are still part of immigration to countries like Australia. When I moved there in 2007, it was a 10 month long process that of course included sponsorship, payments, etc.

For my German ancestors who left their home in Northwestern Germany and came through Baltimore in 1912, the only sad part is that, they never got to return home to visit. I've visited our relatives in Germany. Nice town but I sure am glad about the sacrifices those previous generations made

As far as places you must see to "get it", Paris, Alaska, Athens, Rome, Cairo and most importantly, Kenya are at the top of my list. Maybe Tokyo too.

As far as moving experiences, the Anne Frank House and Bastogne.
Vestal_Flame
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AG
On the, "By the way, this is new," list, I have the following to offer. The hospital at Ellis Island is now available for hardhat tours (for a fee). When last I was there, six years ago, this additional tour was not being offered. It seems like a rare chance to touch a time capsule.

Speaking of time capsules, has anyone been to the Lower East Side Tenement Museum?

Quote:

Bastogne
I had planned to be there in November. The trip was cancelled when I changed firms. You know, it boggles my mind that 1000 years go by and we were still contesting the Treaty of Verdun by fighting in Middle Francia.
AustinAg2K
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For me it was Hiroshima. It's one thing to see pictures on the internet, but to be there and look out across at all the areas of devastation and know everything was flattened really hits you. Then you go into the museum where they have people's skin that had melted off, and you realize what we did. It's debatable about if it was the right thing to do, but the horrors the people of Hiroshima went through aren't really debatable.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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AG
Rape of Nanking ! 2-300,000 massacred by Japs !
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
OldArmy71
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AG

Quote:

It's debatable about if it was the right thing to do
No, it's not. It was the right thing to do.

We killed more Japanese by firebombing them than by nuking them.

All they had to do to stop it was surrender.

They didn't surrender.
Skinner1998
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AG
Japan wouldn't have surrendered without the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. With no surrender, we would have been forced to proceed with the invasion of Japan where millions of civilians would have died - the Japs were training the civilian population to fight with whatever weapons they had (often sharpened sticks). Thus, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the most compassionate course we could have taken in terms of saving human lives.
Vestal_Flame
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AG
I _think_ that we all agree that there was an affirmative moral duty to end the war with the minimum number of total casualties. I think that we all agree that the one right solution is the solution that minimizes casualty numbers.

Respectfully, there may be some legitimate counterfactual debate as to whether the war could have been brought to an end with fewer casualties by other means.

If we assume that the lives of Japanese people do not matter in the casualty figures, and we view the morality of the situation exclusively in terms of the number of Americans killed and injured, then there is no question that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is morally correct.

If we assume that the lives of Japanese soldiers and civilians _do_ matter in the casualty figures, and we view morality in terms of the total count of dead, wounded, sick, and starving, I still believe that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki reduced the overall casualty count.

A blockade and bombing would not have ended the war. I believe that we would only have traded slow starvation of more of the enemy civilians for incineration of fewer of the enemy civilians. That is hardly a compassionate act.

A land invasion would have been Armageddon.

Instead, the war ended. A million lives were saved in a day. Truman should have received the Nobel Prize for Peace.
Schall 02
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AG
Red Square. Specifically Lenin's Tomb. Quite the experience for a Cold War kid.
Rabid Cougar
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Standing on Cemetery Ridge and looking toward Seminary Ridge and conversely. Same for Little Round Top and Devils Den.

Other sites are the Cornfield and the Sunken Lane at Sharpsburg.
Spore Ag
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Everyone has specific emotions and reasons for their feelings. Mine would be Mother Teresa clinic in Calcutta. Was with a friend who questioned why we were going but he left in tears.
TRD-Ferguson
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Visited Ellis Island and the East Side Tenement Museum the same week. Highly recommend both. Not sure I would have survived long in NYC.
insulator_king
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My Wifes Dad and his siblings were interned in a camp in Idaho.
Minidoka.
https://www.nps.gov/miin/index.htm

We visited it a few years ago, very emotional for my wife.
IDAGG
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Skinner98 said:

Japan wouldn't have surrendered without the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. With no surrender, we would have been forced to proceed with the invasion of Japan where millions of civilians would have died - the Japs were training the civilian population to fight with whatever weapons they had (often sharpened sticks). Thus, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the most compassionate course we could have taken in terms of saving human lives.
I have no problem with the use of the bombs to end the war. Also, the Japs were just as stunned and frightened by the Russians declaring war on Japan and the Red Army invading Manchuria. It was a double whammy that happened within days, A Bombs and Russian invasion that brought them to the peace table.

August 6th Hiroshima, August 8th Russia declares war on Japan, August 9th, Nagasaki. August 15th, Japan announces surrender.
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