Loyalty to the state

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Smokedraw01
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4:38p, 6/20/18
One statement I hear often is that people in the South, before the war, were more loyal to their state than Federal government. It's something that I've stated numerous times myself but I've never seen it substantiated except with REL.

What is the basis for this belief?

Thanks in advance.
"If you run into an ******* in the morning, you ran into an *******. If you run into *******s all day, you're the *******." – Raylan Givens, "Justified."
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huisachel
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5:53p, 6/20/18
A few hundred thousand volunteered for the Confederate army. At the end the Texas brigades were barefoot and in rags but still fighting
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to huisachel • 7:27p, 6/20/18
That shows they had loyalty, but not necessarily to the state before all else. I could point out people like George Thomas who didn't secede.

Based on the sources I've read, state pride was a bigger deal, but a sense of nationalism outstripped that in much of the country. State over nation was a creation of the 1820s in the South.
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claym711
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7:54p, 6/20/18
AG
Watson is wrong. But, that's nothing new.
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who?mikejones
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8:07p, 6/20/18
AG
It's like a bat signal
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Skinner1998
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8:35p, 6/20/18
AG
When I first saw this thread I knew the good doctor would soon be along to set us straight
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93Spur
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8:44p, 6/20/18
You were a citizen of your state. Notice the word "state." As in our Department of State (national). As in any nation. As in the "we the people of the United States of America." In other systems of government, there are often provinces (Canada). Mexico is a federation of various States.

Recall the States original attempt a confederation (Articles of Confederation) that failed because, among other reasons, it failed to provide a sufficient mutual defense pact (NATO) and a free trade agreement (NAFTA). Hence, the reason the Articles of Confederation were scrapped and the Constitution adopted. The weak federal government had the power to regulate commerce among the states (Commerce clause), but not within (that came 2 centuries later). The US had no standing army and instead each State had its own army. The federal government had little power and almost no involvement in the daily lives of the citizens of the various states. Really only saw the federal government at ports (we had a Navy and Marines), at territories purchased by the Federal Government (questionable conduct as no such right under the Constitution) (Army) or when it tried to call upon the States to provide soldiers.

As a result, we have no clear term for citizens of the United States of America.

I am a Texan because I came from Texas - a governmental entity. Canadians come from the country of Canada. Mexicans from the country of Mexico. But "American" is a reference to two continents.

Thus, ownership of a governmental entity/citizenship was at the State level, to which loyalty was given.

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Sapper Redux
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In reply to 93Spur • 8:55p, 6/20/18
Every town had a US Post Office. Every port town had customs officials. The United States government was far more ubiquitous than you realize. The Constitution created one nation. That's why the preamble speaks of the people, not the states. That's why there's a supremacy clause. There was debate about that. But a strong central government won out.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to claym711 • 8:55p, 6/20/18
claym711 said:
Watson is wrong. But, that's nothing new.


Try adding more.
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huisachel
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 10:09p, 6/20/18
George Thomas and western Virginia and most of the Texas Germans stuck with the USA for a variety of reasons. But that was not the point of the op, which inquired as to whether people's first loyalty was to state or nation. For most in the south the answer is obvious---some hundreds of thousands died out of loyalty to their state
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to huisachel • 10:35p, 6/20/18
I think he's looking for sources on that. It's an assumption often made but rarely ever actually qualified. A large percentage of the Confederate military was conscripted and amongst the volunteers, local loyalty mattered much more than state loyalty. To say they prized the state over the nation and hat it motivated their service needs a little more evidence than just the rosters of soldiers.
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The Original AG 76
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8:03a, 6/21/18
AG
I bet if you asked Texans today what comes first ..Texas or the US... you would get an amazing result.
For myself there is absolutely no issue nor doubt.
I am a proud Texan FIRST AND FOREMOST . My first loyalty is to my state. As a member of the VOLUNTARY association called the US I am also a citizen of the US and will honor and defend that nation BUT not above my home state. This was true of most citizens of the Southern states before , during and even after the war. It still lives in Texas and to a much lesser degree in most of the Southern states. Mongrelization has , sadly, destroyed Virginia and Florida and our big cities but true loyalty to home and hearth is still alive in many regions of the South today.
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BQ78
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9:25a, 6/21/18
AG
Loyalty to the nation goes down when the nation wages war against your state and family.
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Smokedraw01
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In reply to The Original AG 76 • 9:53a, 6/21/18
The Original AG 76 said:
I bet if you asked Texans today what comes first ..Texas or the US... you would get an amazing result.
For myself there is absolutely no issue nor doubt.
I am a proud Texan FIRST AND FOREMOST . My first loyalty is to my state. As a member of the VOLUNTARY association called the US I am also a citizen of the US and will honor and defend that nation BUT not above my home state. This was true of most citizens of the Southern states before , during and even after the war. It still lives in Texas and to a much lesser degree in most of the Southern states. Mongrelization has , sadly, destroyed Virginia and Florida and our big cities but true loyalty to home and hearth is still alive in many regions of the South today.


I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to know where the evidence for this claim is. Is it mostly from oral history/family stories or are there legitimate primary sources to support this?
"If you run into an ******* in the morning, you ran into an *******. If you run into *******s all day, you're the *******." – Raylan Givens, "Justified."
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huisachel
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3:10p, 6/21/18
There is a huge number of published letters reflecting motivations. Read a smattering of them for evidence
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The Original AG 76
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In reply to huisachel • 3:42p, 6/21/18
AG
huisachel said:
There is a huge number of published letters reflecting motivations. Read a smattering of them for evidence
Not to mention that the electorate of the Southern states VOTED for secession. I kinda think that this is a pretty fair indication that popular sentiment was for State over the federals.
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Rabid Cougar
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 3:46p, 6/21/18
AG
Dr. Watson said:
I think he's looking for sources on that. It's an assumption often made but rarely ever actually qualified. A large percentage of the Confederate military was conscripted and amongst the volunteers, local loyalty mattered much more than state loyalty. To say they prized the state over the nation and hat it motivated their service needs a little more evidence than just the rosters of soldiers.
All you need is to see how many officers in the United States Army (considerable number of them West Point graduates before 1860) left the army to serve in the Confederate Army. 300 of them did so. That would be loyalty of the state over the nation. However, there were numerous officers from the South that chose to stay.
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Smokedraw01
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In reply to huisachel • 7:34a, 6/22/18
huisachel said:
There is a huge number of published letters reflecting motivations. Read a smattering of them for evidence


Thanks. Any that you recommend?
"If you run into an ******* in the morning, you ran into an *******. If you run into *******s all day, you're the *******." – Raylan Givens, "Justified."
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Smokedraw01
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In reply to The Original AG 76 • 7:36a, 6/22/18
The Original AG 76 said:
huisachel said:
There is a huge number of published letters reflecting motivations. Read a smattering of them for evidence
Not to mention that the electorate of the Southern states VOTED for secession. I kinda think that this is a pretty fair indication that popular sentiment was for State over the federals.


I would agree with the original 7 states that seceded.

This is a sort of tangent but could states within the Confederacy ban slavery if they liked?
"If you run into an ******* in the morning, you ran into an *******. If you run into *******s all day, you're the *******." – Raylan Givens, "Justified."
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The Original AG 76
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In reply to Smokedraw01 • 7:50a, 6/22/18
AG
Smokedraw01 said:
The Original AG 76 said:
huisachel said:
There is a huge number of published letters reflecting motivations. Read a smattering of them for evidence
Not to mention that the electorate of the Southern states VOTED for secession. I kinda think that this is a pretty fair indication that popular sentiment was for State over the federals.


I would agree with the original 7 states that seceded.

This is a sort of tangent but could states within the Confederacy ban slavery if they liked?


States Right was emphasized in the Confederate Constitution as was the right to secede. It is entirely possible but totally unlikely that a state could have banned the peculiar institution or even seceded from the Confederacy. The only thing that prevented Maryland , Missouri and possibly Delaware from voting to secede was an occupation yankee army .
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BQ78
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In reply to Smokedraw01 • 9:08a, 6/22/18
AG
No it was written into the Confederate Constitution as something that could never be banned.

Oh and the second round of secession was more or less based on the belief by those states that the government had no right to wage war on the states who had left and they did not want to supply troops for such overreach by the central government.
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The Original AG 76
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In reply to BQ78 • 9:32a, 6/22/18
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BQ78 said:
No it was written into the Confederate Constitution as something that could never be banned.

Oh and the second round of secession was more or less based on the belief by those states that the government had no right to wage war on the states who had left and they did not want to supply troops for such overreach by the central government.
It was in our Constitution that the central government could not ban it. The individual states had very strong rights in the CSA. But it may have been firmed up later in the war as state governments began to really defy Richmond. I believe that Richmond did pass legislation that prevented the states from freeing slaves in a manner other than a vary narrow procedure proscribed by Congress. President Davis was always fighting a multi front war. One against the yankee hordes and a rear guar against the various governors . Would have been an interesting dilemma but a complete unlikely one.
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Nagler
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11:39a, 6/22/18
AG
I read/saw a comment somewhere in the past that said something along the lines of "Before the war it was refered to a 'These United States' versus after the was it became 'The United States'."

I believe that's a good reflection on how the whole situation was looked at.

These are states first that are united together in common interested. After, the US is the main body and the states are simply minor divisions.

As stated above, the fact that secession was voted on by the populace and the amount of US army officers that left shows where the loyalty lies.

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Smokedraw01
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In reply to Nagler • 2:10p, 6/22/18
Nagler said:
I read/saw a comment somewhere in the past that said something along the lines of "Before the war it was refered to a 'These United States' versus after the was it became 'The United States'."

I believe that's a good reflection on how the whole situation was looked at.


I've seen the same thing in regards to the War of 1812.
"If you run into an ******* in the morning, you ran into an *******. If you run into *******s all day, you're the *******." – Raylan Givens, "Justified."
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huisachel
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In reply to Smokedraw01 • 2:22p, 6/22/18
google Confederate letters on secession and jump in-----the literature on all aspects of the war and secession is enormous. Youtube has some good stuff as well. I recently found a prof from some southern university who specializes in letters from the front. I forgot her name but her lecture was about one of the Texas brigades and it was wonderful.
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huisachel
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2:35p, 6/22/18
youtube dr. susannah ural for a great lecture on Granbury's Brigade letters. Some of your relatives probably fought at Nashville and Franklin and Spring Hill

this is one example of how historians are plumbing letters for insight.

there are lots of others and googling for the info about why the southerners fought is interesting.

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huisachel
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2:39p, 6/22/18
What They Fought For 1861-1865 by James McPherson is a superb source for motivations as based on letters and diaries on both sides. You can pick up a used copy on Alibris for a couple of dollars and shipping.
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BQ78
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In reply to The Original AG 76 • 2:51p, 6/22/18
AG
Read the actual Constitution, it was protected at the national level in perpetuity and the individual states could not change it either:

Article IV, Section 2 prohibited states from interfering with slavery:

"The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired."

Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3 concerned the status of slavery in new territories and congress' duty to protect the institution:

"The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several States; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States."
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ABATTBQ87
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 3:00p, 6/22/18
AG
Dr. Watson said:
claym711 said:
Watson is wrong. But, that's nothing new.


Try adding more.


Watson can't be MORE wrong?
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Smokedraw01
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In reply to huisachel • 3:12p, 6/22/18
Thanks for all three of those recs. It's appreciated.
"If you run into an ******* in the morning, you ran into an *******. If you run into *******s all day, you're the *******." – Raylan Givens, "Justified."
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to The Original AG 76 • 5:25p, 6/22/18
The Original AG 76 said:
Smokedraw01 said:
The Original AG 76 said:
huisachel said:
There is a huge number of published letters reflecting motivations. Read a smattering of them for evidence
Not to mention that the electorate of the Southern states VOTED for secession. I kinda think that this is a pretty fair indication that popular sentiment was for State over the federals.


I would agree with the original 7 states that seceded.

This is a sort of tangent but could states within the Confederacy ban slavery if they liked?


States Right was emphasized in the Confederate Constitution as was the right to secede. It is entirely possible but totally unlikely that a state could have banned the peculiar institution or even seceded from the Confederacy. The only thing that prevented Maryland , Missouri and possibly Delaware from voting to secede was an occupation yankee army .


Delaware was never leaving. Missouri was very split and had a strong Unionist population that fought any attempts by the governor for secession. Maryland was also split. The pro-Confederate population lived in the eastern part of the state. Lee's men were met by crickets when they invaded the western part of the state.

And slavery could not be banned by a state without seceding from the Confederacy.
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BQ78
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1:05p, 6/23/18
AG
Ironically a government formed around State's Rights and one of the only significant changes to the law they left took power away from the states.
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Smokedraw01
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8:57p, 6/25/18
Thanks for the help with this. I like to have my students look at different sources and draw conclusions from them. Thanks again.
"If you run into an ******* in the morning, you ran into an *******. If you run into *******s all day, you're the *******." – Raylan Givens, "Justified."
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Rabid Cougar
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In reply to Rabid Cougar • 10:28a, 6/26/18
AG
Rabid Cougar said:
Quote:
However, there were numerous officers from the South that chose to stay.
There were 33 Northern born Confederate Generals. There were 35 Southern born Federal generals that served during the Civil War.

There were 11 Southern born Federal generals that were in the old army before the war began and refused to leave the army in which they had served their entire adult lives. The rest had either were born in the south but were raised in the north or disagreed with slavery and session and moved north as grown men.

The 11 were:
Philip St. George Cooke (Virginia, father of Confederate General John R. Cooke and father-in-law of Confederate General Jeb Stuart)
John W. Davidson (Virginia)
Alexander B. Dyer (Virginia)
Alvan C. Gillem (Tennessee)
Andrew J. Hamilton (Alabama)
William S. Harney (Tennessee)
John Newton (Virginia)
George D. Ramsey (Virginia)
Winfield Scott (Virginia)
William R. Terrill (Virginia. His brother James B. Terrill became a general in the Confederate Army),

George Henry Thomas (Virginia) Thomas was an actual slave owner. His sister disowned him and refused food relief from him after the war saying she did not have a brother. JEB Stuart, one of his students from West Point called him a traitor and should be hung for treason. Lincoln refused to appoint him the overall commanding general of the western theater saying "Let the Virginian wait"

Source "Tim Kents Civil War Tales" July 12 2011.


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Rabid Cougar
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10:39a, 6/26/18
AG
Southern born generals in the Federal Army.
While I was researching this, I did learn something quiet interesting.

At West Point there are numerous structures with Robert E. Lee's name on them, most named in the 20's and 60's which just so happen to be the 50th and 100th anniversaries of the ACW.

However, you will not see Benedict Arnold's name anywhere but you will find indirect references him at several locations. There is even a statue to his amputated leg but his name is not mentioned on it.

History is a fickle thing.
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