The brutality of the WWII Pacific Theate

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My Dad Earl
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1:33p, 12/15/17
AG
Just a topic of discussion that could get many different answers: maybe some WWII history buffs can enlighten me with their thoughts. In my readings of the war in both the European and Pacific theater, I've come to the perception the brutality of the war in the Pacific was on whole different level than the European theater. Not to say that the European theater wasn't brutal, it obviously was. But there seems to be something about the violence in the Pacific that elevates it above the violence in Europe. Maybe I'm wrong in this, but there seemed to be a hatred between the Japanese and Americans that was much deeper than the Americans and Germans.

Does anybody else share this perception? Why is this? Was it something about jungle warfare and the environment? Was it possible cultural and racist tensions in both sides thinking the other was inferior? Was it the method of fighting and strategy that the Japanese used?

To be specific, I'm talking about brutality in regards to actual combat and relations between Americans and opposing forces. I'm not talking about the Holocaust or crimes against humanity (obviously that's a whole different discussion).
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IDAGG
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3:33p, 12/15/17
AG
I'm not an expert but I believe most of the brutality was a combination of the Japanese Army having a well earned reputation for harsh treatment of civilians and prisoners of war (what few they took, they usually shot or bayoneted them). In addition, the Japanese troops themselves would very, very rarely surrender, thus the US troops fought them to the death with no mercy. I don't doubt there was some racial component to it, but it actually went both ways. Both sides saw the other as racially inferior.
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JABQ04
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4:18p, 12/15/17
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From what I have read and gathered, the fighting in the Pacific Theatre was so brutal, or at least perceived to be more brutal than the ETO for several reasons.

The first would be race/cultural differences. The Germans were white, generally Christians, and our troops held a lot of the same beliefs and culture as our troops. I've read statements and accounts of where our men thought it was harder to treat them as "the enemy". Generally our men could give up and be treated fairly well by German Soldiers as we both signed the Geneva Convention. And the Germans likewise. As far as the Japanese went, they were a "foreign" culture to us, odd and alien to the Americans. They were non Christians. They did not believe in surrender and fought to the death and did not treat POWs fairly or humanely. Their code of Bushido was what we considered barbaric and outdated. Look at the cartoons produced by Warner Brothers for propaganda. The Japanese were comical Add to caricatures with large glasses, squinty eyes, and buck teeth.

Second, the Japanese started the war (for us). We knew Hitler was blitzing across Poland, France, and the Low Countries, but that was Europe's problem. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and drug us into the war. They attacked Wake Island, Guam, and the Philippines. That wasn't the Germans, it was the Japanese's fault our men were fighting and dying all across the globe. Hitler just stupidly declared war after the Japanese bombed us.

Now going back to my first paragraph, the style warfare was different. The Japanese proved they weren't keen on surrendering and preferred to fight to the death. During the land battles, they didn't take any prisoners. (Outside of Bataan, Hong Kong, and Singapore I've had yet to read of any Allied PoWs taken minus down pilots, aircrews, and Sailors and were alive at the end of the war) We would advance on islands and pass a Japanese strongpoint, only to have it open up again. Germans and Italians would surrender when things proved hopeless. Japanese troops would fight on until a flamethrower stuck into the bunker silenced things. They would conduct mass Banazai charges during the night, where as in Europe fighting would tend to taper off at dark. It got to the point where our men just didn't try very hard to get them to give up. Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa were examples of no quarter asked and none given.

I know a lot of my statements are generalized but just a quick over view on what I've read. Id be interested to read my GFs letters to my Grandma and see if this comes up. He was drafted in the Army in '43 and fought in the Pacific as an Infantryman and saw action on Iwo Jima as part of the 147th Inf. Regt. Their job was to reduce by any means necessary (either talking them into surrendering or using dynamite and flamethrowers to seal them into their holes) any strongpoints and resistance left as the Marines advanced across the Island. there are plenty og people on this board who are way smarter than me about this and can offer way better insight than my ramblings.
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My Dad Earl
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In reply to JABQ04 • 5:13p, 12/15/17
AG
JABQ04 said:
Second, the Japanese started the war (for us). We knew Hitler was blitzing across Poland, France, and the Low Countries, but that was Europe's problem. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and drug us into the war. They attacked Wake Island, Guam, and the Philippines. That wasn't the Germans, it was the Japanese's fault our men were fighting and dying all across the globe. Hitler just stupidly declared war after the Japanese bombed us.
That's a point that I've never considered. The Americans took the Pacific war more personally than the European since that that was more "our" war. And to add to it, since it was the Navy specifically that was attacked at Pearl Harbor so that probably added to the hatred of the Navy/Marines towards the Japanese...
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CT'97
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5:37p, 12/15/17
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You are not wrong in the perception that the Pacific was more brutal. Largely I believe this stemmed from the Japanese belief that they were the chosen people and that everyone else was beneath them or less human. The Japanese atrocities makes anything the German's did pale in comparison. I am in no way trying to minimize the holocaust but when put on a similar scale the Japanese were worse and the Soviets were worse than both of them.

In turn it was not hard for our Soldiers and Marines to see the Japanese as less than human because they simply looked different and lived very different lives. Food, clothes, behavior, was all different. It's easier to demonize someone who is different from you.

The combination of the Japanese largely fighting in situations where retreat or maneuver were not an option on relatively small islands and their no surrender beliefs and the fighting was brutal.

So it becomes a give and take. Both sides looking down at the other. Neither understanding each other and simply responding with in kind violence.
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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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6:17p, 12/15/17
AG
Relative was pilot in New Guinea - any pilot missing was deemed to have been executed by the Japs !
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
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expresswrittenconsent
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7:11p, 12/15/17
The Germans and Russians had themselves a pretty damn brutal eastern front of the european theatre.
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My Dad Earl
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In reply to expresswrittenconsent • 7:43p, 12/15/17
AG
expresswrittenconsent said:
The Germans and Russians had themselves a pretty damn brutal eastern front of the european theatre.
I agree. The fighting coupled with the extreme atrocities were probably the worst of the war, along with the invasion of China. I was speaking more from an American perspective since that's what we were directly involved in.
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The Original AG 76
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8:26a, 12/16/17
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My dad fought in the Pacific and for all the reasons ( 100% VALID) listed above he had no problem saying that , once they faced the enemy, they NEVER again considered the japs as even remotely human. They were simply rabid vicious animals to be exterminated. This wasn't as a result of any formal sponsored brainwashing like what the Wehrmacht received regarding the untermensch they were about to fight on the eastern front it was from pure experience. Sure there was a racial content and the revisionists love to show the cartoons and propaganda of the era (yet conveniently leave out the same cartoon portrayals of Hitler, the krauts and even the Italians). The revisionists seldom point out that for the japs the entire Pacific war WAS a 100% race war waged by the ONLY race worthy of being called HUMAN vs the entire barbarian sub human world. The entire population of Japan was indoctrinated form birth, for centuries , the the Sons of Nippon were simply THE humans whereas ALL of the rest of homo-sapiens were an inferior sub set. It WAS their culture and their religion. Our reaction and the actions of our troops were the inevitable outcome of having to fight these people. Even if an individual attempted to act in any form of a humane manner when confronting the enemy the result was damn near always fatal and gruesome. A pretty good analogy would be facing a pack of rabid vicious dogs, there can be only one course of action.
I seriously doubt that you could find ANY young American ( or British) kid who went in to action as a green recruit with ANY intention of committing what some call an atrocity against a young jap kid BUT after that kid from Iowa saw what the enemy did on EVERY battlefield in the Pacific to EVERY Allied soldier that fell into their hands and experienced the suicide charges, the fake surrenders, the gruesome mutilations and exterminations perpetrated against civilians and captives ( only the American indians could rival the japs in their treatment of captives) ......that Iowa kid , sadly, became what we hope no American kid should ever become again.
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Rabid Cougar
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3:03p, 12/16/17
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It was extremely brutal. You have a very good modern day example of the brutality in our war against ISIS.
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TRD-Ferguson
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9:00a, 12/17/17
AG
My now 94 year old father served in the USMC Pacific Theatre and later in Korea. I asked him about ROE once. He said there were no rules when it came to fighting the Japanese. Absolute and total brutality on each side.
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jja79
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9:06p, 12/17/17
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My dad was a US Marine and among the landing force at Iwo Jima the day after he turned 23. I have his Bronze Star and the documentation of his promotion to Major thereafter.

He never talked about the Japanese as some here have mentioned. He said they were the enemy and doing what they were ordered, just as he was.

I grew up in the Trans-Pecos and many friends and dads were big campers. We never joined them though. When asked him about it he said he got a lifetime worth of camping after the landing.

One of my mom's brothers was shot down and killed in Europe and another died a POW of the Germans.
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cbr
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12:00a, 12/22/17
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An old ranch hand I knew was a ranger on Guadalcanal and several other heated pacific battles. Spent a lot of time behind enemy lines. This guy took ears. He had a necklace full of jap ears. Saw the pic. Neat guy. Good man.

Hated japs.

Reading history, they simply valued torture and victory much more than life. They ATE people. They engaged in all manner of brutality. They were just plain evil.

My neighbor as a kid in Minnesota was a Luftwaffe pilot in Finland. Things got very brutal there too. One of the ladies with him was Ukrainian. She loved the Germans. Hated Stalin and the Russians and fought with the Germans herself.

Bottom line, people love to hate nazis. And with good reason. But the reality is they weren't even in the top 2 on the brutality list DURING THE SaME WAR.
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bufrilla
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7:40a, 12/22/17
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POW's during WWII (don't know if these figures are exact, but they are close)
POW held in camp controlled by German Luftwaffe - 95% survival
POW held in camp controlled by German Wehrmacht - 75% survival
POW held by Japanese - 25% survival
A lot of German POW's brought to camps in the USA returned to the USA after the war because of their
excellent treatment.
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HollywoodBQ
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In reply to bufrilla • 7:50a, 12/22/17
AG
bufrilla said:
POW held in camp controlled by German Luftwaffe - 95% survival
POW held in camp controlled by German Wehrmacht - 75% survival
Yeah, I think the German conditions were pretty good. j/k
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HollywoodBQ
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8:20a, 12/22/17
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My maternal grandfather fought through New Guinea and the Philippines. His story was similar in some ways to the Medic in the movie Hacksaw Ridge. He wanted to serve but didn't want to kill anybody. Unlike the protagonist in the movie, once my grandfather saw firsthand what they were up against, he evidently changed his point of view.

I'm the oldest grandchild and got to spend just enough time with him to get a few war stories. He talked about how sneaky the enemy was and some of the tricks they would run to try to lure soldiers into dropping their guard.

They were "the dirty, nasty Japs" until the day he died. And from what he saw in the South Pacific, I can't fault him at all for having that opinion.

Not so much about the brutality but about the level of commitment by the Japanese, one of the stories he told me several times was about finding the Japs in a foxhole and missing one boot. He said that when they were getting overrun by the advancing Americans, they would commit suicide by taking off one boot, sticking the end of their rifle in their mouth and pulling the trigger with their big toe.

My grandfather was a very modest man, didn't talk much and only kept two awards of any kind visible in his home. One was a letter of commendation from Union Carbide for stopping the loadout of a fertilizer ship that would have caused another Texas City - 1947 like explosion. The other was a letter of commendation from a General in the South Pacific for his efforts treating wounded during the invasion of Hollandia in April 1944.

I've got a copy of his military records and his medals. His AsiaticPacific Campaign Medal has 4 stars plus an Arrowhead which I found out is for "Amphibious Assault".

Anyway, back to the OP. He definitely saw the brutality first hand. But, didn't give a graphic account of it to me or my brother or cousins other than telling us about the "Japs" who had committed suicide. I was only 17 when he passed away so we were relatively young when he told us the stories he did tell.
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BQ78
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9:03a, 12/22/17
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I had a First Marine friend who died about three years ago who was very open in talking about his experiences. Stephen Ambrose interviewed him for his Citizen-Soldiers book and some of his stories are in the book (but not the best ones). He landed at Guadalcanal with an '03 Springfield and was on Bloody Ridge the night Basilone earned his MoH. He lived on captured Japanese rice at Guadalcanal for about a month and never ate rice again after leaving the island and hated the stuff. After Guadalcanal, he fought in New Guinea until he contracted a jungle disease that "made my balls as big as bowling balls." He had some crazy stories about terrible things that happened. Many of the guys took gold teeth out of the Japanese dead, he said he did it a couple of times but it didn't feel right. He described a situation in New Guinea where his squad was pinned down for over an hour by a lone sniper, the sniper ended up killing three of their squad before they finally got him. He fell out of a tree wounded and was still alive but each remaining member of the squad put a bullet in his head as he lay there.

I asked him if he had any regrets about anything he did and he said one. He said they came up on some Japanese in foxholes in a good defensive position so they pulled back and called in a mortar attack. After the attack they probed the position and my friend was on the point. As the first foxhole came into view there was a Japanese soldier standing up in his foxhole holding his rifle pointing it at my friend. My friend said it seemed like an eternity as they both looked at each other down the barrels of their guns, until my friend pulled his trigger killing the Japanese. He said the look in the guy's face always resonated with him and he said I don't think I had to shoot him because he was shell shocked by the mortar barrage but I wasn't going to wait around to find out.
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cbr
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In reply to bufrilla • 2:36p, 12/22/17
AG
bufrilla said:
POW's during WWII (don't know if these figures are exact, but they are close)
POW held in camp controlled by German Luftwaffe - 95% survival
POW held in camp controlled by German Wehrmacht - 75% survival
POW held by Japanese - 25% survival
A lot of German POW's brought to camps in the USA returned to the USA after the war because of their
excellent treatment.
then there is the german pow held in soviet camp - 4% survival
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RPag
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In reply to cbr • 3:28p, 12/22/17
That's not even remotely true. The death rate of German POWs was around 36%; far less than the 57% death rate of Soviet POWs.
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cbr
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5:02p, 12/22/17
AG
it is certainly true of Paulus' 6th army. dont know about others but may look it up.
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JABQ04
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In reply to cbr • 6:29p, 12/22/17
AG
cbr said:
it is certainly true of Paulus' 6th army. dont know about others but may look it up.


I was going to bring that up. Approximately 91,0000Soldiers surrendered at Stalingrad with the 6th Army. Around 6,000 returned to Germany after their captivity. As far as general PoWs seems like 3million and some change captured with around 1 million dying in captivity. Of course the Russkies claim is lower, but the research by West Germany during the Cold War has the number at 1 million dead, and that's assuming many of the German MIA actually died in captivity. Then again who really knows.
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Aust Ag
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1:00p, 12/23/17
AG
As a newbie to this Forum, I find this fascinating. The brutal nature of war is something I'll probably never know, but this thread, plus movies like Hacksaw and that HBO Pacific Theater miniseries, really magnify the reality that war is really Hell.

My uncle, A&M grad, was shot down in the Amazon during WW2 and barely survived....my Aunt told me a few stories, but he never opened up to me about it. Amazing men.
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Aust Ag
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1:04p, 12/23/17
AG
As a sidenote, when the company Amazon being basically the same as Google these days, it's really hard for me to read information about the action that my uncle saw, because if you do a search for Amazon World War II, well, you get the idea....
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BQ78
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In reply to Aust Ag • 4:40p, 12/23/17
AG
Why was he in the Amazon and who the heck shot him down?
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The Original AG 76
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In reply to Aust Ag • 6:16p, 12/23/17
AG
Aust Ag said:
As a sidenote, when the company Amazon being basically the same as Google these days, it's really hard for me to read information about the action that my uncle saw, because if you do a search for Amazon World War II, well, you get the idea....


Is this some kind of code ?
Wounds my heart with a monotonous languor....
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expresswrittenconsent
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In reply to BQ78 • 7:03p, 12/23/17
BQ78 said:
Why was he in the Amazon and who the heck shot him down?

Ditto. I didnt know there was fighting in South America in WW2.
To the point about having trouble searching for "Amazon ww2" you could try searching Brazil ww2 or South America ww2.
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Aust Ag
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In reply to BQ78 • 9:21a, 12/24/17
AG
BQ78 said:
Why was he in the Amazon and who the heck shot him down?
This is very similar to what my uncle dealt with....he made it out after being lost for weeks. Had to deal with the "locals" , which was surreal.
These guys didn't make it.
http://arlingtoncemetery.net/ww2crew.htm
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JABQ04
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In reply to Aust Ag • 10:05a, 12/24/17
AG
Aust Ag said:
BQ78 said:
Why was he in the Amazon and who the heck shot him down?
This is very similar to what my uncle dealt with....he made it out after being lost for weeks. Had to deal with the "locals" , which was surreal.
These guys didn't make it.
http://arlingtoncemetery.net/ww2crew.htm

So was your uncle shot down or did his plane have a malfunction and crash? I'm not knocking anything your uncle did by any means, but I know of no air combat over Brazil. The only enemy action I know off of S. America were naval battles. Ive heard of several UBoats being engaged in the South Atlantic, and the Graf Spee was scuttled off of Argentina. Perchance an enemy vessel returned fire on his plane and damaged him to the where he limped back over the jungle before crash landing? If you have any more info that would be interesting to hear how things played out.

Also what was your uncles name, since he was a former student. Someone might be able to dig up some more info.
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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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10:32a, 12/24/17
AG
Wasn't there a movie about an action on the Amazon like this?

Starred Peter O'Toole. Believe it involved a German U-boat .

Looked it up - Murphy's War ! Revenge by a Brit against U-boat which had killed his buddies for no reason .
BigJim49AustinnowDallas
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OldArmy71
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In reply to BigJim49 AustinNowDallas • 10:41a, 12/24/17
AG
You have a good memory!

Murphy's War, 1971

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067458/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_75
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BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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12:23p, 12/24/17
GasAg90
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8:27p, 12/24/17
I;ve thought a lot on this subject and am now weighing in.

First thought was the Japanese as their brutality is well known. I have met and talked to many WW2 veterans and also POWs of both Japanese and German captivity. The German pow stated it was not easy and that many people died, "but at least he wasn't in a Japanese pow camp" The Japanese pow talked about love of God and the better person he was coming out of it. Clearly, the Japanese were more brutal in pow terms.

Arguably, the Japanese were also more brutal in combat. The failure to give up, suicide charges, treatment of prisoners, it is without question that the Japanese were brutal and downright evil in this manner.

What the Marines and downed airmen faced in the face of the Japanese was horrific. With a few exceptions, notably the Chinese and Philipino's, the Japanese brutality was directed at the individual level.

The question then becomes does the brutality of the Japanese on the individual level outweigh the massive brutality of the Germans on the social level.

I would much rather be captured by the Germans unless I was a civilian Jew.
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JR69
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In reply to GasAg90 • 11:41a, 12/27/17
AG
GasAg90 said:
I;ve thought a lot on this subject and am now weighing in.

First thought was the Japanese as their brutality is well known. I have met and talked to many WW2 veterans and also POWs of both Japanese and German captivity. The German pow stated it was not easy and that many people died, "but at least he wasn't in a Japanese pow camp" The Japanese pow talked about love of God and the better person he was coming out of it. Clearly, the Japanese were more brutal in pow terms.

Arguably, the Japanese were also more brutal in combat. The failure to give up, suicide charges, treatment of prisoners, it is without question that the Japanese were brutal and downright evil in this manner.

What the Marines and downed airmen faced in the face of the Japanese was horrific. With a few exceptions, notably the Chinese and Philipino's, the Japanese brutality was directed at the individual level.

The question then becomes does the brutality of the Japanese on the individual level outweigh the massive brutality of the Germans on the social level.

I would much rather be captured by the Germans unless I was a civilian Jew.
What do you mean by that?
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The Original AG 76
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In reply to JR69 • 12:18p, 12/27/17
AG
JR69 said:
GasAg90 said:
I;ve thought a lot on this subject and am now weighing in.

First thought was the Japanese as their brutality is well known. I have met and talked to many WW2 veterans and also POWs of both Japanese and German captivity. The German pow stated it was not easy and that many people died, "but at least he wasn't in a Japanese pow camp" The Japanese pow talked about love of God and the better person he was coming out of it. Clearly, the Japanese were more brutal in pow terms.

Arguably, the Japanese were also more brutal in combat. The failure to give up, suicide charges, treatment of prisoners, it is without question that the Japanese were brutal and downright evil in this manner.

What the Marines and downed airmen faced in the face of the Japanese was horrific. With a few exceptions, notably the Chinese and Philipino's, the Japanese brutality was directed at the individual level.

The question then becomes does the brutality of the Japanese on the individual level outweigh the massive brutality of the Germans on the social level.

I would much rather be captured by the Germans unless I was a civilian Jew.
What do you mean by that?


He obviously hasn't read about the rampage by the japs in Singapore or Hong Kong against British civilians when they moved in. Wholesale slaughter of hospital patients, rape and torture of European nuns. On and on. The sons of nippon simply had more opportunities to murder and torture Chinese and Philipino civilians.
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JR69
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1:05p, 12/27/17
AG
I read that to mean he thought the Chinese and Filipinos (note it's spelled with an F, not a Ph) were not subjected to brutality on an individual level. I KNOW that's not true.

I have spent a great deal of time in the Philippines since I retired. My mother's first cousin was a Bataan Death March survivor - barely. My grandmother always said he was not the same person - not all there - after surviving the hell hole that was any Japanese prison camp.

Twice I followed the Death March route from the tip of the Bataan peninsula to Camp O'Donnell in Tarlac province, the first prison camp stop for the Bataan survivors. Along the way, I met and spent a great deal of time talking with several elderly men and a few women who were children in 1942. On my last trip 2 years ago, I returned to the town of Dinalupihan to spend a day with two brothers who were, as children, witness to that abomination. I assure you, the stories they told me were horrifying and most certainly most of it was directed at individuals - POWs and Filipino civilians alike. Acts of brutality such as they saw as children stick in the memory.

There is no way to describe the behavior of Japanese soldiers in all the countries they occupied other than atrocious and brutal. Certainly there were many mass killings of POWs and civilians, such as the murder by burning to death of POWs in Palawan, depicted in the opening scene of the movie The Great Raid, and the massacre of more than 1500 men, women, and children in Los Banos and surrounding villages after the successful rescue of prisoners held there.

There also was a great deal of brutality directed at individuals who were suspected of not toeing the line in the eyes of the occupiers. Guerilla fighters, and individuals who were merely suspected of being guerillas, if caught, were brutally tortured for information before they were executed. Families who violated rationing rules faced summary execution. Local politicians - village mayors and council members, barangay officials and civic leaders - who did not openly become collaborators were removed and exiled or executed, replaced by men who at least gave the appearance of going along to get along.

Speaking only of the Philippines, there is no way one can conclude that the Filipino people escaped any of the terrible things civilians all over Asia suffered at the hands of the Japanese, both in terms of individual suffering or mass murder. I had similar conversations with older Korean men and was told similar stories back in the early 1970s when i was stationed there during military service. I've not been to China, except Hong Kong, but all one has to do is read a single article about the Rape of Nanking to know that China also was the recipient of it's share of Japanese brutality.

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