Remember The Alamo: Hypothetical Time Travel

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Rascal
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4:07p, 12/13/17
AG
What was it, 183 Texans against a Mexican army of 1,500?

How do you think the Texas Army would fare assuming the following:

1) You and 3 other modern day infantrymen traveled in time to join forces defending the Alamo

2) Each of you were able to carry a single .45 caliber handgun with 3 extra clips magazines plus a single M16 rifle with 3 extra clips magazines (basically an average of 150 242 or so total rounds of firepower per person or 600 968 combined rounds right?)

3) In addition, each man is supplied with 4 hand grenades

ALL other normal conditions apply: start of the attack begins normally and you and your time traveling force arrive 15 mins before the attach begins...

Let's assume the (4) of you were stationed at one per corner of the fort....

Do you think that this scenario would have been enough manpower to combat the Mexican Army and actually win the battle? It basically would have added the equivalent of 600 968 additional men with muskets, right?

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rugger74
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4:14p, 12/13/17
AG
Now you also assume that none of the four will be killed. That alone will diminish the stated firepower.
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plowboy1065
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4:44p, 12/13/17
S
You lost me at clips
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Rascal
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In reply to plowboy1065 • 4:54p, 12/13/17
AG
plowboy1065 said:
You lost me at clips
OK, sorry. Magazines work OK?
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Rascal
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In reply to rugger74 • 4:56p, 12/13/17
AG
rugger74 said:
Now you also assume that none of the four will be killed. That alone will diminish the stated firepower.
No assumption there at all. Those 4 could get killed.

Wondering if the frequency of firepower (single shot, not fully auto) from 4 individuals would help to stem the tide of the Mexican Army over time, but especially early on so momentum couldn't be established by MA.
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plowboy1065
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In reply to Rascal • 5:02p, 12/13/17
S
Rascal said:
plowboy1065 said:
You lost me at clips
OK, sorry. Magazines work OK?

Ok, I'm back in
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HollywoodBQ
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In reply to Rascal • 5:24p, 12/13/17
AG
Rascal said:
1) You and 3 other modern day infantrymen traveled in time to join forces defending the Alamo
Sounds like Benghazi
Rascal said:
2) Each of you were able to carry a single .45 caliber handgun with 3 extra clips plus a single M16 rifle with 3 extra clips (basically an average of 150 or so total rounds of firepower per person or 600 combined rounds right?)
Basic Load of 5.56 is 210 rounds per soldier so I'd start your premise there.
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JABQ04
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In reply to HollywoodBQ • 6:46p, 12/13/17
AG
Was going to mention 210 rounds.
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Cen-Tex
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7:23p, 12/13/17
AG
If their shots were accurate, the attackers might have been repulsed. Some historians say the Alamo defenders killed up to 600 Mexicans. Add the additional 600 Mexican troops killed by modern soldiers and this would have all but depleted Santa Anna's 1500 troops. Still a lot of what if's and unknowns.
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JABQ04
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7:29p, 12/13/17
AG
One modern dude at each corner probably won't affect the overall outcome with the exception of way more casualties on the attackers side. The four able to move, shoot, and communicate as a team is what I think would be tipping point. Put four modern infantrymen on top of the hospital/longbarracks and it'll be like shooting fish in a barrel. Give them NODs and optics and that's checkmate I believe. They'd be engaging targets out to 300m and the some compared the Brown Bess only being accurate-ish with in 50 yds.

Also I'd like the Texans chances with only one M240B team on the roof. Plenty of ammo and some good cover from an elevated position would slaughter any Mexican Soldiers trying to attack. Once they began scaling the North Wall after Travis death then you've got them.
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Stive
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10:00p, 12/13/17
AG
I have nothing to add but I love hypotheticals like this.
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CanyonAg77
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7:29a, 12/14/17
AG
If they were there for the whole siege, that's where they'd be most effective. Reach out and touch a few officers at 300 yards the first day or so, and Santa Anna leaves you alone. Once the final assault began, I'm not as confident. Again, if they can take out some officers, some non-coms, and the grunts leading the assaults, they could make the rest turn tail.
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Stive
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8:01a, 12/14/17
AG
If we're considering that the scenario only begins once the final assault starts, wouldn't they have to have night optics? Didn't the final assault start well before dawn?
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AFarmer95
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8:49a, 12/14/17
AG
The m16 has a longer range than their artillery so if you could pick off those guys at the beginning of the battle, they would be starting from much further back and there would be less damage to the fort and no men lost from the initial artillery bombardment.

They would probably be so freaked out by loosing men at 800 to 1000 yards they would probable not even try an assault.
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BQ78
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8:56a, 12/14/17
AG
And some Mexican surgeon would be pulling bullet fragments out of a soldato's wounds and exclaim, "My God they have been reduced to using bronze bullets, like us with our cannonballs!"
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MGS
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9:44a, 12/14/17
What if the Texans had a single AC-130?
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MGS
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In reply to rugger74 • 9:46a, 12/14/17
rugger74 said:
Now you also assume that none of the four will be killed. That alone will diminish the stated firepower.
First thing to do would be to train the other defenders how to use these weapons, so they can continue using them when the other four are killed.
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AgBQ-00
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4:39p, 12/14/17
AG
Hypothetical on top of hypothetical here. What would the introduction of modern weapons during that time mean for the balance of power hemispherically and globally? You know they would try to replicate those weapons as soon as they could.
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clarythedrill
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5:44p, 12/14/17
I would take an M1A1 Heavy Common with a full complement of ammo in just about any ground battle you want to bring up, but only if I can have the Exxon Valdez follow me around to provide fuel. I could conquer the world damn near.
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AFarmer95
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7:10p, 12/14/17
AG
According to my father who was in Nam in 69-70, if you took his M16 from then, you better take the bayonet too because it jammed so much.
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BQ78
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In reply to AgBQ-00 • 8:21a, 12/15/17
AG
The lack of precision tooling would probably stop them and the composites would make them scratch their head wondering what it was.
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Presley OBannons Sword
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In reply to MGS • 9:25a, 12/15/17
MGS said:
What if the Texans had a single AC-130?

the whole world would be speaking Texan right now.
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MaroonStain
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1:21p, 12/15/17
AG
This is the best TA thread I have read in a week.
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Cen-Tex
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10:18a, 12/16/17
AG
Would have also added xenon searchlights along the compound walls. Could have prevented Col Juan Morales from staging his column 20 yards from the SW corner in the dark, prior to the attack.
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Rabid Cougar
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2:53p, 12/16/17
AG
Four M-4s at each corner? They place still falls. One the Mexicans get within musket range, and they would, it's pretty much over. There are numerous instances in Afghanistan were SF teams get pinned down by Taliban and it it were not for air support and QRF they get wiped out.
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Whiskey Before Breakfast
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2:55p, 12/16/17
AG
One (1) M134D Minigun, tower mounted in the center of the yard

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Presley OBannons Sword
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In reply to Rabid Cougar • 4:52p, 12/16/17
Rabid Cougar said:
Four M-4s at each corner? They place still falls. One the Mexicans get within musket range, and they would, it's pretty much over. There are numerous instances in Afghanistan were SF teams get pinned down by Taliban and it it were not for air support and QRF they get wiped out.

The Taliban doesn't fight with muskets.
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Stive
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4:57p, 12/16/17
AG
Wasn't there an Indian fight (I have it in my brain it was in Wyoming) when the army first used repeating rifles and the devastation/impact was pretty shocking? The Indians had been so used to fighting single shot muskets/carbines that a small force held off a much larger force?

Seems like this would be similar. They wouldn't have to kill them all. The simple shock of the accuracy and volume of fire compared to what they were used to would be akin to the first time soldiers charged a machine gun. The impact would be as much mental and morale as it would volume of dead.
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JABQ04
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In reply to Stive • 5:14p, 12/16/17
AG
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon_Box_Fight
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HollywoodBQ
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5:30p, 12/16/17
AG
Apart from the 4 guys with M4s, can we get some Engineer support?

I don't know how much advance warning they had that the Mexicans were coming and/or if they knew they would come from one particular direction (They didn't cover this bit of Texas History in my Saudi school) but, if there were some advance warning, creating some obstacles to canalize the enemy could help a lot.
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Stive
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In reply to JABQ04 • 5:45p, 12/16/17
AG
That's the one.
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CanyonAg77
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5:50p, 12/16/17
AG
I also recall that the Texas Rangers routinely got their butt kicked by Indians with bows and arrows, until they got the Walker Colt revolvers. A single shot musket didn't stand much of a chance against a high-powered, semi-auto bow and arrow with a high capacity magazine.
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to Presley OBannons Sword • 5:53p, 12/16/17
AG
Presley OBannons Sword said:
Rabid Cougar said:
Four M-4s at each corner? They place still falls. One the Mexicans get within musket range, and they would, it's pretty much over. There are numerous instances in Afghanistan were SF teams get pinned down by Taliban and it it were not for air support and QRF they get wiped out.
The Taliban doesn't fight with muskets.
Back to my point. If you have four guys vs. 1,800 Mexicans already at the walls, they are in trouble.

If you start picking off officers, NCOs and artillery at 300 yards,on February 23rd, it's a different story.
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Rabid Cougar
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In reply to Presley OBannons Sword • 11:41p, 12/16/17
AG
Presley OBannons Sword said:
Rabid Cougar said:
Four M-4s at each corner? They place still falls. One the Mexicans get within musket range, and they would, it's pretty much over. There are numerous instances in Afghanistan were SF teams get pinned down by Taliban and it it were not for air support and QRF they get wiped out.

The Taliban doesn't fight with muskets.


Might as well. Pray and spray with AKs is about the as close as you can get to musket fire. With 1,500 muskets some one is going to get hit. One forgets that the Mexicans also had Baker rifles.
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Rabid Cougar
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 11:47p, 12/16/17
AG
CanyonAg77 said:
Presley OBannons Sword said:
Rabid Cougar said:
Four M-4s at each corner? They place still falls. One the Mexicans get within musket range, and they would, it's pretty much over. There are numerous instances in Afghanistan were SF teams get pinned down by Taliban and it it were not for air support and QRF they get wiped out.
The Taliban doesn't fight with muskets.
Back to my point. If you have four guys vs. 1,800 Mexicans already at the walls, they are in trouble.

If you start picking off officers, NCOs and artillery at 300 yards,on February 23rd, it's a different story.


So I pull my guns back to 600 yards and start pounding. The reason the reason the Army started issuing M14s to Extended Range Marksmen in Afghanistan. The M4s were being outranged by PKMs.
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