I listened to a pretty interesting podcast on this during our drive to NM and back this week. Learned some stuff I didn't know (I didn't realize it was spread out over so many years, the assassination attempts on the 20 Cherokee leaders in Oklahoma, etc.) and found the story more intriguing with all of the facts included than it ever was depicted in textbooks.

The podcasts were by the Stuff You Should Know guys, it's two parts and takes about 1.5 hours to get through both parts. They did a good job of laying the groundwork of why it all happened, and how it got to that point.


Any one here have any other random thoughts or opinions on that whole circus?

Nothing to add, except I may check out those podcasts now.

Always interesting !

The Cherokee Nation had a Civil War within the Civil War that was directly related to finger pointing associated with John Ross and the Trail of Tears. The factions that stayed with the Union followed Ross and the Confederates opposed to them were under Stand Watie. Some back and forth of the various members of the tribe occurred during the war (e.g. John Drew's Regiment turncoating from Confederate to Union) but the tribal in-fighting went on until Watie surrendered and his was the last Confederate command to surrender. The Civil War seemed to end the open fighting in the tribe.

I have nothing to add about the Trail of Tears, but I do know that many of the Indian tribes that got sent to Oklahoma ended up being fodder for Comanche & Kiowa war parties.

I'd heard about Andrew Jackson's ignoring of the Supreme Court on this matter but every time I hear it it still makes me shake my head. It's hard to process a president ignoring a ruling like that in today's world and surviving politically.

BQ78 said:

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The Cherokee Nation had a Civil War within the Civil War that was directly related to finger pointing associated with John Ross and the Trail of Tears. The factions that stayed with the Union followed Ross and the Confederates opposed to them were under Stand Watie. Some back and forth of the various members of the tribe occurred during the war (e.g. John Drew's Regiment turncoating from Confederate to Union) but the tribal in-fighting went on until Watie surrendered and his was the last Confederate command to surrender. The Civil War seemed to end the open fighting in the tribe.

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I have nothing to add about the Trail of Tears, except that I am lucky to have been born.

Stive said:

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I'd heard about Andrew Jackson's ignoring of the Supreme Court on this matter but every time I hear it it still makes me shake my head. It's hard to process a president ignoring a ruling like that in today's world and surviving politically.

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The way I look at it is that Jackson was a back country South Carolinian. They were directly affected by the Cherokee wars before the Revolutionary War. It was in fact amajor cause of the war.

And the people on that frontier, which was western South Carolina, western North Carolina, Virginia and Tennessee, were bent on gaining land no matter what. The more they emptied the land of Indians, the quicker they could settle it.

Oh and obviously he and his peers were bigots and unbending.

VanZandt92 said:

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Stive said:

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I'd heard about Andrew Jackson's ignoring of the Supreme Court on this matter but every time I hear it it still makes me shake my head. It's hard to process a president ignoring a ruling like that in today's world and surviving politically.

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The way I look at it is that Jackson was a back country South Carolinian. They were directly affected by the Cherokee wars before the Revolutionary War. It was in fact amajor cause of the war.

And the people on that frontier, which was western South Carolina, western North Carolina, Virginia and Tennessee, were bent on gaining land no matter what. The more they emptied the land of Indians, the quicker they could settle it.

Oh and obviously he and his peers were bigots and unbending.

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Except he they we're allies in the Creek War. As I've read it, Jackson may have actually believed that he was being a humanitarian and sparing the Americans indians further strife by getting them away from white men. I'm not sure that I believe that 100% but I also know that most characterizations we make about historical figures are rarely 100% accurate.

While Jackson may have justified his position that way (and he wouldn't have been the first to use that excuse), his implementation of the move was anything but humanitarian.

Yeah the implementation makes me almost certain that any statements regarding "indians best interest" are/were bull.

I'm going to go slightly contrarian on you here Sapper, the Trail of Tears was not nice and the land steal was a crime. However, to the maximum extent possible the Indians were transported by boat to Ft. Smith, Arkansas and Arkansas Post, so it wasn't like most of them were marched overland to Oklahoma. It was for the most part a watery trail. Problems arose when towns like Vicksburg ran out of food to feed the numbers going through there. So the logistics for food and supplies became the issue that caused problems and death. For the most part it was not caused by the images we typically see about the event that look like a forced march, most notably:

I understood that it was a fairly small group that took the boats around Florida and that was mostly the richer ones that could afford it? Am I missing something?

The logistics also came into play when the "roundup" began on the front. Many/most of them weren't allowed to take anything with them including extra clothing, blankets, food, etc. This implementation is where I start doubting any sincerity on Jackson's part about the well being of he Indians.

Dr. Watson said:

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While Jackson may have justified his position that way (and he wouldn't have been the first to use that excuse), his implementation of the move was anything but humanitarian.

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I thought the actual movement took place during Van Buren's presidency?

The movements took place over a multi year window of time. Some under Jackson and some under VB.

RedAgs01 said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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While Jackson may have justified his position that way (and he wouldn't have been the first to use that excuse), his implementation of the move was anything but humanitarian.

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I thought the actual movement took place during Van Buren's presidency?

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I believe the largest percentage moved under Van Buren, but it was set in motion and started under Jackson.

Stive:

It is pretty hard to come by exact numbers of anything on the Trail of Tears, death estimates (emphasis on estimates) range form 2,000-8,000 deaths but no one really counted they guessed. Same with the numbers moved. But with most Cherokee (the tribe with the most people moved) and almost all Seminoles moved by water to Ft. Smith it is estimated that most of the evacuations were by water. But again nobody counted hard numbers.

The problem with moving by water for the Indians was you couldn't take any livestock or large items, so you had to sell them before you left to your white neighbors, who knew they could get them for a fraction of their real worth.

" Great Courses" has a very good 12 total hour lecture course on DVD titled " Native People's of North America". Produced in cooperation with the Smithsonian. Very informative if you enjoy such as this. Tells the story mostly from the eyes of the Indians.
The Trail of Tears is covered and so much more. I highly recommend it.