Pearl Harbor 'what if' question

2,523 Views | 22 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by JR_83
coupland boy
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AG
Obviously the carriers not being in port during the attack was critical. But I was wondering what would the battleships have been used for had they not been damaged or the attack had not happened at all and we had entered the war under different circumstances. Maybe a more realistic question is what if only 4 or 2 battleships were present?

This is intended as a question of fleet utilization (for lack of a better description). I didn't ask this under the 'what if?' thread because the outcome of the war is not in question.

Convoy escort duty? Seems they would have been vulnerable for shore bombardment in any area wuthout air supremacy. Maybe the answer lies in looking at what the Maryland and Tennessee did once they were repaired having been lightly damaged?
JABQ04
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AG
Still would have been used for convoy escort, fleet protection from enemy surface vessels, and shore bombardment for amphibious assaults. I think if there were no BBs in Pearl or only a couple there on Dec 7. they would have been utilized in the exact same way. Even though Pearl Harbor was devastating to the Pacifc fleet, we still had enough to get the job done. Not sure of the repair timeline (I know several damages at Pearl were not back in service until 1944 and the Arizona and Oklahoma were never used again) we were still able to launch invasions on Guadalcanal and in N. Africa in November 1942 as well as ferry troops to England with our Battleships on hand at the time.

The Original AG 76
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AG
The real failure of the attack was no carriers and no follow up 3rd wave against the infrastructure .

Sinking the BB's was a hit on the fleet but as far a bang for the buck , or it is yen, sinking the Battlewagons probably, ton for ton, was the least effective result of the attack.
Had they hit the carriers we would have really been set back for possible years in our push. That would have allowed the japs to fortify more bases and build up their defenses. It was vital that the carriers were available in 42 . Without carriers Midway falls easily , no Coral Sea so New Guinea falls and possibly northern Australia .The japs can run rampant for a couple of years.

YUGE mistake was not launching the 3rd wave and taking out the massive infrastructure at Pearl. Dry docks, oil facilities , yards etc. A successful 3 rd or even 4th strike means we can not properly support the carriers and the surviving fleet much less salvage and repair the damaged assets.

Would love to hear from Alan about just how precarious our position in the Pacific really was even with the carriers and a functioning base at Pearl was. A few more breaks going the jap way ( better jap communication security at Midway) and that bloody war might have been much much worse.
coupland boy
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AG
Compared to the North Carolina class and beyond the battleships at Pearl looked like antiques. Tennesee and Maryland even had the old birdcage type masts, i think, on December 7.

Since Tennessee and Maryland were the least damaged i figured I'd look up their wartime service record. I managed to look at Tennessee's last night on Wiki (seems to be some good info) and it said those battleships were simply too slow to operate with carriers (no surprise - knew that). Because of that she patrolled the eastern part of the Pacific during the Battle of Midway (as good as sidelined IMO).

I'll look up Maryland later (damaged even less that Tennessee i think).

My point in thinking about this was the attack on Dec. 7 has been characterized as a 'crippling blow'. I don't mean to minimize the tragic loss of 2,400 dead by any means but if in hindsight we could choose anything to be hit that day, a bunch of slow battleships was probably even far better than the infrastructure that was able to support submarines, carriers, cruisers, and destroyers.
SirGIGalot
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AG
Without the infrastructure and dry docks to service/repair ships plus any lost fuel oil reserves would the rest of the fleet have to fall back to the west coast? Redeploy to Australia if able?
ABATTBQ87
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How about this what if scenario what if the US carriers were Northwest of Hawaii and could have intercepted the Japanese task force and inflicted damage like they did at Midway
CanyonAg77
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What if the "Nimitz" could have been there. It would have been "The Final Countdown"
ABATTBQ87
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CanyonAg77 said:

What if the "Nimitz" could have been there. It would have been "The Final Countdown"


That would be awesome
coupland boy
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AG
Splash the Zeros. I say again, splash the Zeros.
ABATTBQ87
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Rabid Cougar
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ABATTBQ87 said:

How about this what if scenario what if the US carriers were Northwest of Hawaii and could have intercepted the Japanese task force and inflicted damage like they did at Midway
The American carriers would have been sunk then and there and the IJN would have accomplished their goals without bombing PH.
JABQ04
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AG
We might have been able to pull it off. If our carriers knew of the attack and could get in position hit the IJN while the majority of their planes were on a strike then we might have had a fighting chance. But if and only if we could have surprised the surprises. If the Japanese knew where our carriers were....... bad day.
CanyonAg77
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At Midway, didn't we stand toe to toe with the Japanese carriers and come out okay? Assuming we surprised the Japanese, and not the other way around, it could have been a butt kicking for the Japanese. Especially since they would have been in range of shore-based aircraft.

Of course, if you're going to imagine that, you can also imagine having subs, battleships, and shore-based bombers lying in wait for the Japanese fleet.
coupland boy
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I presume the best time to do so would have been when the second wave was on the way to Pearl and the first wave was coming back low on ammo and fuel?

If we had planned such an ambush I'd guess our battleships would have cleared the harbor and been out of harm's way? In that case the first wave would have met stiffer resistance of ready and waiting AA fire from land based installations and, albeit with inferior aircraft, ready air forces.

If the ships were not sitting ducks then both waves would have comcentrated on the fuel storage facilities, hangers, and drydocks.

Did the Japanese leave any air cover for their carriers during the attacks or go all-in on the surprise atrack?

Our pilots were not seasoned at that point at all.

Japs had 6 carriers vs. 4 at midway. We woul've had Lexington available.
ABATTBQ87
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Rabid Cougar said:

ABATTBQ87 said:

How about this what if scenario what if the US carriers were Northwest of Hawaii and could have intercepted the Japanese task force and inflicted damage like they did at Midway
The American carriers would have been sunk then and there and the IJN would have accomplished their goals without bombing PH.
Why would the carriers be sunk? The Japs didn't know where they were on December 7th, so what if they would have been NW of Hawaii, received the Attack warning and then had been able to follow the first wave back to the japanese carriers, just like Midway
JonSnow
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Our training, equipment, and tactics were inferior to the Japanese at the time. Even if we had prior warning of the attack, hard to see our forces at the time inflicting much damage.
ABATTBQ87
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kberma2009 said:

Our training, equipment, and tactics were inferior to the Japanese at the time. Even if we had prior warning of the attack, hard to see our forces at the time inflicting much damage.
yet 6 months later we defeated the Jap navy at Midway, with only 6 months of training and very little air to air combat with them (battle of Coral Sea)
JABQ04
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Beat me to it. Our pilots went into midway with one battle under their belts. Also if the our torpedo bombers weren't going on what came out to be suicide runs on the Jap carriers and allowed the dive bombers to attack virtually unopposed and we didn't have blind luck and follow a Japanese destroyer to their main fleet, Midway at best would have been an inconclusive battle if neither fleet could locate each other. Could have easily been the destruction of the heart of the Pacific fleet if only a couple of things went the Japanese. way.
Rabid Cougar
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6 IJN Carriers vs 3 USN carriers "Northwest" of Hawaii as opposed to 4 IJN carriers vs 3 USN at Midway.
The Original AG 76
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kberma2009 said:

Our training, equipment, and tactics were inferior to the Japanese at the time. Even if we had prior warning of the attack, hard to see our forces at the time inflicting much damage.
Alan please correct me if I'm wrong BUT
I read somewhere that the carriers that were out to seas on Dec 7 were not in a fully " war ready" condition. Meaning they were not loaded with their full compliment of planes, aviation fuel, ORDINANCE ( bigly problem) and even pilots.
Had they run into the jap fleet it would have been a slaughter .
coupland boy
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Enterprise was on the way back from delivering a squadron of Marine fighters Wake Island. Lexington was on the way back from doing the same at Midway. Saratoga was pulling onto San Francisco to take on her air wing after they had been training. Apparently some of the fighters were Brewster Buffaloes. I understood those to be even more obsolete than the slow torpedo bombers that were decimated at Midway.

That was it. Every other carrier was in the Atlantic.
JR_83
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ordnance not ordinance

And 6 carriers vs 2 are not good odds.
The Original AG 76
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JR_83 said:

ordnance not ordinance

And 6 carriers vs 2 are not good odds.
what if it was just ordinary ordnance ?
JR_83
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Also Enterprise was delayed entering Pearl by a day due to weather. If she'd been sunk in harbor...
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