I Just finished reading The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

3,333 Views | 20 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by BillYeoman
chick79
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AG
Probably the longest book I've ever read. I enjoyed it. I'm interested in others' thoughts on this.
HHAG
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AG
Great book. Shirer was there and saw so many things firsthand and/or was able to cobble together a coherent tale of the horribleness of the Nazis. If you ever have a 10+ hour flight, grab a copy and go for it.
dcbowers
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AG
I just finished the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich last week, too.

Thomas Shirer was a unique individual in a unique time, position and location. Nobody else would have had his access to have written such a book.

Although quite long and more than 50 years old, it remains the definitive book on the topic. The first half of the book (while Shirer was based in Berlin) is a fascinating, personal narrative. Then, the U.S. enters the war and Shirer leaves Germany. Subsequently, the story changes to topical chapters about the Holocaust, assassination attempts, etc.

Took me two copies over 5 months. I accidentally lost my first copy while on a trip in Portland, Oregon (Fortunately, used copies are cheap on Amazon). Glad I finished.
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Ag_EQ12
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AG
It's an impressive book, but more for its readability than anything else.

It is quite dated and had problems when it was published in 1960. It is not the definitive history of the Third Reich. Unfortunately Shirer did not have a good grasp of German history and apparently did not keep up with the historiography. One of the biggest problems is Shirer's adherence to the idea that the Third Reich was the logical continuation of German history from the Reformation forward. He believed that the Nazi regime and its many horrors were the inevitable end point on the straight line Germany took through history as it reached modernity. Many scholars (today and in the 1960s) find this argument flawed.

Still, the book is worth a read. In my opinion, Richard J. Evans' Third Reich Trilogy is the definitive work.

aalan94
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AG
Read it many years ago. Ag.EQ12 makes good points, but Rise and Fall is still the closest thing there is to a definitive history, simply because there isn't anything that comes close in scope. If you really want to understand Nazi Germany, start with that book, but don't stop.
Ag_EQ12
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AG
Have you read Evans' trilogy? It specifically covers the entire 'rise and fall' of the Nazi regime. It's the best I've seen on the topic.
dcbowers
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AG
Perhaps we can agree that these are both outstanding histories of the Third Reich.

Much of my admiration of William Shirer's book is that he was an eyewitness to the rise of National Socialism in Germany in the 1930's and subsequently at the Nuremberg Trials in the late 1940's. Evans was born in 1947. I am not saying that he can not write a great book, but his perspective will be different.
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Ag_EQ12
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AG
Absolutely. Shirer's perspective as a journalist is one of the reasons the book has been so popular. Read them both!
Mort Rainey
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This book has been sitting on my shelf for years. I just haven't been ready to take the plunge.
P.H. Dexippus
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AG
Finished it last week. 45hrs listening on audio book. I really enjoyed Shirer's first-hand account of the French surrender at the Compiegne Forest.

As for the critique that Shirer's book is flawed because it posits that German submission to the Nazis was a continuation of Luther's attitude toward the Anabaptists (the one listed on the book's Wikipedia entry I might add)- this theory is only mentioned in passing and is not a unifying theme throughout the book. It's hardly a reason not to read it.
BQ78
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AG
I would say Luther's attitute toward the Jews would be more of a unifying factor for the Germans and the Nazis.
Sapper Redux
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Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

Finished it last week. 45hrs listening on audio book. I really enjoyed Shrier's first-hand account of the French surrender at the Compiegne Forest.

As for the critique that Shrier's book is flawed because it posits that German submission to the Nazis was a continuation of Luther's attitude toward the Anabaptists (the one listed on the book's Wikipedia entry I might add)- this theory is only mentioned in passing and is not a unifying theme throughout the book. It's hardly a reason not to read the it.


He didn't say not to read it, just that Shrier's form of historical determinism is not generally accepted. Making those kinds of meta-arguments is usually a form of begging the question and will always be problematic. That doesn't take away from the value in the book.
aalan94
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AG
By the way, it's William Shirer, not Thomas.
jickyjack1
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Dr. Watson said:

Mr. AGSPRT04 said:

Finished it last week. 45hrs listening on audio book. I really enjoyed Shrier's first-hand account of the French surrender at the Compiegne Forest.

As for the critique that Shrier's book is flawed because it posits that German submission to the Nazis was a continuation of Luther's attitude toward the Anabaptists (the one listed on the book's Wikipedia entry I might add)- this theory is only mentioned in passing and is not a unifying theme throughout the book. It's hardly a reason not to read the it.


He didn't say not to read it, just that Shrier's form of historical determinism is not generally accepted. Making those kinds of meta-arguments is usually a form of begging the question and will always be problematic. That doesn't take away from the value in the book.

This is the first time I have seen any kind of reference to "begging the question" used in relation to it's originally intended meaning in quite a long while.
aeroag14
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AG
Interesting. I may have to check this out!

On a (at least somewhat) related note, I just finished the documentary series "Hitler and the Nazis" on Netflix a few weeks ago and thought it was a very well done series. I really enjoyed the heavy emphasis that the series places on the pre-war rise of hitler and the Nazi party as well as their backgrounds as opposed to focusing on the war itself. Anyone else seen it?
Presley OBannons Sword
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Shirer's "the Nightmare Years" is pretty decent as well. it's a memoir from the time in his life leading up to the war. Not really a history of anything specific, per se, but gives some good insight into what pre war Germany was like.
Cinco Ranch Aggie
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AG
I always thought this was a comprehensive work on Nazi Germany. I read it for the first time roughly 5 years ago and was amazed at its readability given its massive size and the scope of the subject matter. I felt that it was a slow read over the first several hundred pages that were dedicated to Hitler's early history and the formation of the Nazis, but once Shirer turned his attention toward events that actually led to WWII and the events of the war itself, I flew through the remaining several hundred pages. Yeah, it is a lot of pages (I have an over-sized pressing of the book).
Longstreet
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Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

I always thought this was a comprehensive work on Nazi Germany. I read it for the first time roughly 5 years ago and was amazed at its readability given its massive size and the scope of the subject matter. I felt that it was a slow read over the first several hundred pages that were dedicated to Hitler's early history and the formation of the Nazis, but once Shirer turned his attention toward events that actually led to WWII and the events of the war itself, I flew through the remaining several hundred pages. Yeah, it is a lot of pages (I have an over-sized pressing of the book).
I felt the same way when I read it, many years ago now.

I was deep into a WW2 spell, had heard of Shirer's book, and when I came across a clean used copy at Second-Hand Books thought, "I ought to read this." I fully expected it to be long and dreary, and it was a bit tedious at first, but when it picked up steam it was engrossing. Shirer wrote well.

Funny story about that book. My copy was hardbound, still had the dust jacket, black with a big swastika in the white circle. I used to take books to work to read at break and lunch, and one morning as I was walking out one lady that I worked with saw it and asked "What kind of book is that?" in a tone like she had just watched me skin a kitten alive. I tried to explain to her that it was a history of Nazi Germany, written by a reporter who had lived through that era, but she said "You should NOT be reading those kinds of books!" and actually backed away from me, with a look of horror on her face.

She never spoke to me again.

EDIT: Third Reich Trilogy sounds interesting. Might have to check that out.
Corporal Punishment
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AG
I never read this book but instead Albert Speer's Inside the Third Reich, which as I understand it, was Europe's best selling book on the subject.

For those that have read each book, is it worthwhile to read both of them?

I know Speer received criticism for using his book to downplay his culpability in Nazi crimes, but I wanted to read Third Reich history from one of Hitler's closest confidants.
74OA
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AG
Still true today:

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." Unknown
Mort Rainey
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Longstreet said:

Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

I always thought this was a comprehensive work on Nazi Germany. I read it for the first time roughly 5 years ago and was amazed at its readability given its massive size and the scope of the subject matter. I felt that it was a slow read over the first several hundred pages that were dedicated to Hitler's early history and the formation of the Nazis, but once Shirer turned his attention toward events that actually led to WWII and the events of the war itself, I flew through the remaining several hundred pages. Yeah, it is a lot of pages (I have an over-sized pressing of the book).
I felt the same way when I read it, many years ago now.

I was deep into a WW2 spell, had heard of Shirer's book, and when I came across a clean used copy at Second-Hand Books thought, "I ought to read this." I fully expected it to be long and dreary, and it was a bit tedious at first, but when it picked up steam it was engrossing. Shirer wrote well.

Funny story about that book. My copy was hardbound, still had the dust jacket, black with a big swastika in the white circle. I used to take books to work to read at break and lunch, and one morning as I was walking out one lady that I worked with saw it and asked "What kind of book is that?" in a tone like she had just watched me skin a kitten alive. I tried to explain to her that it was a history of Nazi Germany, written by a reporter who had lived through that era, but she said "You should NOT be reading those kinds of books!" and actually backed away from me, with a look of horror on her face.


She never spoke to me again.

EDIT: Third Reich Trilogy sounds interesting. Might have to check that out.
Sounds like a really open minded person
BillYeoman
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Longstreet said:

Cinco Ranch Aggie said:

I always thought this was a comprehensive work on Nazi Germany. I read it for the first time roughly 5 years ago and was amazed at its readability given its massive size and the scope of the subject matter. I felt that it was a slow read over the first several hundred pages that were dedicated to Hitler's early history and the formation of the Nazis, but once Shirer turned his attention toward events that actually led to WWII and the events of the war itself, I flew through the remaining several hundred pages. Yeah, it is a lot of pages (I have an over-sized pressing of the book).
I felt the same way when I read it, many years ago now.

I was deep into a WW2 spell, had heard of Shirer's book, and when I came across a clean used copy at Second-Hand Books thought, "I ought to read this." I fully expected it to be long and dreary, and it was a bit tedious at first, but when it picked up steam it was engrossing. Shirer wrote well.

Funny story about that book. My copy was hardbound, still had the dust jacket, black with a big swastika in the white circle. I used to take books to work to read at break and lunch, and one morning as I was walking out one lady that I worked with saw it and asked "What kind of book is that?" in a tone like she had just watched me skin a kitten alive. I tried to explain to her that it was a history of Nazi Germany, written by a reporter who had lived through that era, but she said "You should NOT be reading those kinds of books!" and actually backed away from me, with a look of horror on her face.

She never spoke to me again.

EDIT: Third Reich Trilogy sounds interesting. Might have to check that out.



That is a great story. Similar thing happened to me. I have the same hardback book with the black dust over. It is in the book case in my home study. Hard to miss the swazticka. My brother in law (Jewish) was here for the holidays. He quipped, "Ummm....is it cool we stay with you this week?"
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