Munich 1972

4,438 Views | 23 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by RGV AG
Fonzie Scheme
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When the terrorist walked out on the balcony (it's the image now forever tied to the incident) had been picked off by a sniper, do you think this would have deterred Black September or strengthened their resolve?



Unfortunately, I say the latter. They cared nothing about their lives. It was about their cause. This is to say nothing about "right vs. wrong". Just playing historical armchair QB.
BQ78
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The hostages would have all died there istead of Frstenfeldbruck. Wouldn't have changed that.
The Original AG 76
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As long as there is hope you must continue to negotiate. The Germans desperately did not want a massacre of the Jewish athletes on German soil and did all they could to get everybody out of Germany.
The entire "book" on dealing with hostage taking was re-written after this fiasco.

The entire world and Olympic community response and remembrance of this horrific attack on ALL civilized society was pathetic. However a little solace can be taken in the fact that the Israelis did serve " justice" on the murdering thugs and the leadership of the criminal gang that organized the attack.
terata
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OA76, is murdering an innocent man in Lillehammer "dealing justice"
The Original AG 76
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terata said:

OA76, is murdering an innocent man in Lillehammer "dealing justice"
ok I'll bite.....
who?
Kugelfang52
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I agree that it would not have changed the result for the victims.
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas
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Fonzie Scheme said:

When the terrorist walked out on the balcony (it's the image now forever tied to the incident) had been picked off by a sniper, do you think this would have deterred Black September or strengthened their resolve?



Unfortunately, I say the latter. They cared nothing about their lives. It was about their cause. This is to say nothing about "right vs. wrong". Just playing historical armchair QB.
IT WAS WRONG !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YokelRidesAgain
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The Original AG 76 said:

terata said:

OA76, is murdering an innocent man in Lillehammer "dealing justice"
ok I'll bite.....
who?
Ahmed Bouchiki, who was murdered by Mossad agents in Lillehammer as they mistook him for the chief of operations for Black September. He had no connection to the organization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair
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aalan94
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Moot point: They didn't have snipers. As was noted, this rewrote the book on dealing with terrorism. Law enforcement units did not have snipers. I seriously doubt the Bundeswehr in 1972 had many, because that's such an "offensive" weapon and politically incorrect for the Germans to have.
Build It
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"leadership of the criminal gang"

I think you mean the leadership of the radical Islamic terrorists.
Sapper Redux
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Build It said:

"leadership of the criminal gang"

I think you mean the leadership of the radical Islamic terrorists.


Religion wasn't the PLO's focus.
Build It
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Dr. Watson said:

Build It said:

"leadership of the criminal gang"

I think you mean the leadership of the radical Islamic terrorists.


Religion wasn't the PLO's focus.


So can we agree on radical terrorists that were also Islamic.
Sapper Redux
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Build It said:

Dr. Watson said:

Build It said:

"leadership of the criminal gang"

I think you mean the leadership of the radical Islamic terrorists.


Religion wasn't the PLO's focus.


So can we agree on radical terrorists that were also Islamic.


Do we need to shoehorn in religion for everything? Should we call the Paxton Boys, "murderers who were also Christian"?
Build It
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No we shouldn't, they havent called for the destruction of Israel and the murder of Jews like the PLO.

What's even more shocking is the current head of the PA is the guy that funded these terrorist and somehow he gets a pass.
Sapper Redux
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Build It said:

No we shouldn't, they havent called for the destruction of Israel and the murder of Jews like the PLO.

What's even more shocking is the current head of the PA is the guy that funded these terrorist and somehow he gets a pass.


The PLO wasn't making those claims from a predominantly religious standpoint. They were a political terrorist organization.
Build It
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It is impossible to separate Islam from politics.
Sapper Redux
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Build It said:

It is impossible to separate Islam from politics.


It is, actually, and was for a long time. The members of the PLO were almost all Muslim, but that doesn't mean they were organized around a religious purpose.
RGV AG
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The PLO, the old school PLO, has always had Christians in it. Some of the founding members were Christians back in the 50's and 60's. Christians were always prominent in Palestine, but after 1948 many were trampled under foot by the Zionists just as were Muslim Palestinians. Of all the middle east terrorist organizations probably the most secular was the PLO as it was for the most part a struggle to regain a homeland. The Israeli's/Zionists were nobodies friends but their own back in the day, witness the USS Liberty deal and some other events.

On a personal level I can't fault the Jews for the vengeance they took, but in the same light they sure got away with a huge land grab and a trampling of human rights that would have been earth shattering in modern times that had modern world wide media. Make no mistake about it, not all the victims, and yes there were victims by Zionism, were Muslims and not all the PLO "Freedom Fighters/Terrorists" were Muslims either. The lack of support and pressure on Israel by the western community in regards to Palestine basically created a void into which radical Islam and the states that supported it rapidly entered in regard to Palestine.

One of the current vocal leaders of the Palestinian Authority with ties and connections to the PLO is a Christian woman.
terata
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The Original AG 76 said:
ok I'll bite.....
who?


YokeRideAagain said:
Ahmed Bouchiki, who was murdered by Mossad agents in Lillehammer as they mistook him for the chief of operations for Black September. He had no connection to the organization.



Indeed, Yokel. Read all about it -Title: The Hit Team
Author: David B. Tinnin
Note: Boston : Little, Brown, c1976







Build It
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There very well may be some christians in the PLO but they are not friendly to the Palestinian Christian community. They may tolerate some of them but they have all but left the lands of old Palestine. The murder and destruction of the christians towns and villages in Lebanon in the 70's should be enough to convince everyone they are Islamic terrorists disguised as a political movement.
RGV AG
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Build It said:

There very well may be some christians in the PLO but they are not friendly to the Palestinian Christian community. They may tolerate some of them but they have all but left the lands of old Palestine. The murder and destruction of the christians towns and villages in Lebanon in the 70's should be enough to convince everyone they are Islamic terrorists disguised as a political movement.
Absolutely, well said and fairly accurate too. The PLO transformation of the late 70's and into the 80's was a result of the meddling of other countries; i.e. Libya, Iraq, Syria and even Jordan via the expulsion (my opinion). That is when, from what I have read and understood, the true outright manifestation of the radical Islamist traits started really showing up. There was plenty of Christian involvement and violence directed at Muslims as well during that time. Lots of outside involvement seems to really have stirred the pot.

The big diaspora of the Palestinian Christians really sped up after 1948, and they tended to really immigrate, not just go to other local countries or areas. That whole deal is just really screwed up and I don't think it has any natural solution. The creation of a Jewish state in that area, artificially, and how things transpired just made a bad situation completely untenable for others that were either not Jews, or not there, or who were willing to GTFO a long way away.

I don't think it was until like 2004 or so that the PLO formally adopted some of the basic laws or whatever they are of Islam. And by now it sure seems that most of the of those involved in all of those organizations are tilted toward the radicals. I was very friendly with a Palestinian Ambassador in Latin America, and he was a decent guy. He lived in abject fear of being recalled to the middle east. Ironically he had both Jews and Christians in his immediate family and was vehemently against Hamas and the Iran influence. But it seemed the PLO and Palestinians in general were betrothed to the radicals with the green. Funny how money always influences things.
P.H. Dexippus
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Quote:

On a personal level I can't fault the Jews for the vengeance they took, but in the same light they sure got away with a huge land grab and a trampling of human rights that would have been earth shattering in modern times that had modern world wide media.
Not accurate IMO. The land was not - by either size or quality - huge. Israel is tiny compared to its neighbors. And they didn't "get away with" anything, as Israel has been constantly harassed and guilt tripped about their very existence since their modern founding.

And your position of course begs the question of whose land it was to begin with. Without speaking to whose ancient claims take precedent, the Jews in palestine were given up for dead when the British Mandate ended. That the Jews defied the odds, and persevered against the Arab armies that surrounded them during that time, earned them the land. The alternative was annihilation.
RGV AG
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I would argue that the on a "per capita" basis the grab of land was pretty substantial. Think about it this was close to, or over depending on whose stats are uses, 50 percent of the Arab owned lands during the mandate ended up passing to Jewish/Israeli control within a period from late 47' to early 49'. More followed during the subsequent years.

I would disagree on the reality, although that was a prevelant sentiment from afar, that the Jews were "given up for dead" after the end of the mandate. Many Zionists and some of the proponents for a Jewish homeland wanted that belief to accepted among the hostile Arab countries as well. But the Irgun and Stern Gang were well prepared for and knew what was coming during that time, and there was a populace in place that was ready to defend to the death what had been "given" to them. Equally, Jewish/Israeli intelligence was incredibly well placed and through. What the Jews might have lacked in numbers and establishment they made up for with knowledge and will.

To overlook actions such as the Deir Yassin massacre and many other forced and violent evictions of Palestinians that had been on lands for thousands of years is shortsighted and it is a large part of the continuing conflict that remains today.


P.H. Dexippus
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RGV AG said:

To overlook actions such as the Deir Yassin massacre and many other forced and violent evictions of Palestinians that had been on lands for thousands of years is shortsighted and it is a large part of the continuing conflict that remains today.
To selectively mention Jew-on-Arab violence while omitting incidents like the Hadassah medical convoy massacre or Kfar Etzion massacre or the history of violence by both sides paints a false narrative. Both groups used force on the other. And both groups have historical claims to the land going back thousands of years.

The powers that be decided that the Jews would get the land west of the Jordan (Israel), and the Arabs would get the land east of the Jordan (Jordan). But even then the Arabs were not content to leave Israel in peace.

The continuing conflict today has nothing to do with "overlooking" Jew-on-Arab violence...it originates with Islam and the Prophet's view of Jews as played out over and over again. Take a look at his treatment (mass execution) of the surrendering Jews after he conquered Medina. They were the victims of the 1033 Fez massacre and 1066 Granada massacre. When there wasn't massacres, there were pogroms. There was the 1834 and 1929 massacres of Safed, Syria (now Israel). And this is a really tiring exercise, as there are thousands of mass murder events of jews at the hands of arabs in middle east history. The same cannot be said of the converse.

Having spent time in Israel, the West Bank, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, I can say unequivocally that Israel is the party that offers Arab and Jew the opportunity to live and work side-by-side.
RGV AG
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If you are going to reference violence and massacres against Jews in as far back as 1066 and tie that to radical Islam what are the correlations of radical Islam and Muslims to the Pogroms and all the violence, and it was substantial, against Jews in Europe throughout the centuries. It is well documented that most of the Jews in the Middle East were more successful and prosperous, not to mention freer and lived in a more inclusive society, than those in Europe for a long period of time.

During the above mentioned time period Jews in Europe, Eastern Europe in particular where over half the Jews of the world lived at the time, were subjected to a very tenuous existence, and it was that existence that led to the Zionist movement and the return of Jews, in large numbers, to what is now Israel. The Jews had always faced some discrimination and exclusion in Muslim Arab countries, but many had prospered and lived well in those countries. It was not an ideal situation by modern standards, but it was a situation that was better than many parts of Europe for the most part.

Make no mistake about what I am relating, I abhor and detest and think that Islam is a vile scrounge upon the planet. I am not advocating that the Arabs and Palestinians are merely victims of the Jews and Israel. What I am saying is that the artificial, and it was artificial and it never would have happened had it not been for the Holocaust, creation of Israel (namely the US and British impetus) and the manner in which Palestinians, who were historical residents with as much or more right to that land than the Jews, were treated in that creation is a primary cause of the continued issues in the Middle East. It is my opinion, based on my interpretation of history, that the Jewish/Zionist movement has helped foster radical Islam in an area where it really was not prevalent nor present to the extent it is today.

The Israelis have not been entirely innocent in this continued mess. You mention massacres hundreds of years old, but in recent times what about Sabra and Shatila? Those have had nothing but a galvanizing impact on large swath of Arab youth and did nothing more than give credence to the vile hatred that Ayatollah's and Mufti's across the Middle East and Persia have been poisoning their captive populations with for years.

My point is that the creation of Israel and the subsecuent actions could have likely been handled in a better manner.
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