rumor has it world athletics may ban the vaporfly from competition by end of month: https://www.businessinsider.com/nike-vaporfly-shoe-ban-decision-2020-1

Quote:

---

Many runners sponsored by other shoe companies would like to see World Athletics issue rules about Nike Vaporflys. Sara Hall, an Asics-sponsored runner, told Outside Online last yearthat because of the shoes, "it's hard to really just celebrate performances at face value right now."

---

So get better and become sponsored by Nike. Or buy the shoe like everyone else.

I assume the technology is patented which is why other manufacturers aren't doing the same?

Addidas actually had the tech first, then canned it.

Ive listened to way too many House of Run podcasts about the subject.

Soooo...are these worth it to buy just as race day shoes for a non-elite? Like will it shave a minute or two off a half for someone who runs at like a 7:30 pace? Or do they just feel amazing?

I don't think they should be banned. Innovations in shoes have been happening since people stopped running barefoot, why stop now?

I'd love a pair but I refuse to pay $250 for running shoes.

I don't think they should be banned. I do think they give an advantage but like someone stated isn't that usually the point in tech advances? I've had so many friends PR including 3 OTQs with the shoes.

What about them makes them so much faster?

Quote:

---

The secret to Nike's technology is in the sole.

In addition to protecting our legs from the impact of striking the ground, running shoes store and release energy to propel us forward. The midsole acts like a spring, compressing when a runner lands, storing the energy from that foot strike, and expanding again to return that stored energy into the ground to push them forward.

Not all of that stored energy gets returned with each footfall, though some dissipates as heat. But the Vaporfly soles fuse together a foam layer and carbon-fiber plate in order to minimize that lost energy. This helps runners get the most forward push for each stride; in other words, they can run faster for the same energy expenditure.

A February 2019 study conducted independently of Nike found that the Vaporfly shoes improved an athlete's running economy by 4.2% compared to Adidas Adizero Adios 3 shoes.

---

As for the shoes, it's tough to stop technology. You have to grandfather some in, then draw the line somewhere. Racquetball racquets, golf balls, and club heads, baseball bats...all of this stuff CAN be made lighter, hit the ball harder, etc. Hard to see them being ruled illegal after the murderer got to wear pogo sticks in the Olympics.

I got a PR because of my new shoes seems kind of hollow. If it pays you, by all means, but for personal achievement do you want your athletic progress achieved by your pocketbook alone?

This is great advertising for runners like myself who are on the cusp of hitting a BQ time.

But aren't there other high end shoes using a thicker midsole with a carbon plate?

SJEAg said:

---

Soooo...are these worth it to buy just as race day shoes for a non-elite? Like will it shave a minute or two off a half for someone who runs at like a 7:30 pace? Or do they just feel amazing?

---

I've now run two races in them (10 miler and a full), and I do think that they make a difference. My fitness level is better than it has ever been (not bragging), and both races were big PR's. I would like to think the fitness level is the predominate reason, but I think the shoes helped, too.

Quantifiable number other than pace, my stride length in both races has been longer than normal while cadence has stayed the same. That hasn't really been intentional on my part, it has just happened. Qualitatively, my legs feel less beat up when wearing them as compared to other shoes. They just feel like they'll carry you faster if you want to.

The $250 can be a tough pill to swallow when it comes to "worth it", but I've been really pleased with them and really pleased with the results when I race in them.

While waiting to start this morning, I was talking with some folks and speculating about the number of dollars in Vaporflys were on people's feet. Their prevalence was pretty staggering.

"While waiting to start this morning, I was talking with some folks and speculating about the number of dollars in Vaporflys were on people's feet. Their prevalence was pretty staggering."

There just aren't that many Ethiopians and tech CEO's out there. At some point the masses have to carry the load.

"4.2% improvement in economy."

I wonder what the translates to in time. It is was a direct correlation that would be about 5 minutes off a 2 hour half marathon time. 10 minutes off a 4 hour marathon. (I chose these times, because they are my averages).

Is an extra $120 for a pair of new shoes worth that time savings? Is a 4.2% efficiency savings worth more time or less time? Makes me curious.

Fair point. Not being elite myself, I am lacking in frame of reference. I'm not yucking anyone's yum, mind you. Just curious. If shaving 10 mins gets you into Boston, I can certainly appreciate the gravity of that savings.

htxag09 said:

---

My understanding, and the owners of the actual show can correct me if I'm wrong, is that it'll be more than an extra $120. These shoes aren't your standard shoes that are good for 400+ miles. You only wear them for races and maybe a couple races. So in reality it's an extra $250, you're still going to spend what you spend on training shoes, these are in addition.

But either way, in the grand scheme of things, people are paying coaches and spending a lot more in training than $250 to knock off 10 minutes.

---

Not really that different from raceday wheel rentals for ironman races. People will spend what seems like crazy amounts of money to shave relatively small amounts of time off of their finish times. For those who get a BQ time in a marathon or a Kona slot in an ironman, it is probably worth it.

A lot of hear say and just talk so no warranty on this. Your mileage may vary (obvious pun)...

What I read about prior versions was basically two hard races and then throw them away. Supposedly, the newest ones last longer due to the carbon plate and foam both having improvements in how they hold up. I trust the guy that told me that about the new ones a great deal, but I haven't read any hard evidence.

My goal is to get ~100 miles of dedicated racing out of mine and then retire them into training. Totally agreed on the idea that these shoes are in addition to regular trainers and not a replacement. It works out, for me, to about a year's worth of racing in one pair Vaporflys, and that view makes the price less of a concern.

I keep thinking about swimming and cycling when people argue about unfair and unavailable to the mass advantages. Bike wheels, frames, designs, wetsuits, tri suits, even swim suits have changed dramatically to give advantages.

And these shoes are dirt cheap compared to the above mentioned...

Edit: fix for my stupidity

Bump with the latest update that I have seen

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/28/controversial-nike-vaporflys-escape-ban

I've been noticing advertisements on social media for similar concept insoles. If they were to ban these shoes, would they have to check insoles also? And I assume a ban would keep other manufacturers from developing them, or would they continue to develop and the ban be lifted when everyone makes these and they are now "easily accessible/available".

I just feel like it's a slippery slope to go down.

VK Carbon Fiber Insoles

94chem said:

---

As for the shoes, it's tough to stop technology. You have to grandfather some in, then draw the line somewhere. Racquetball racquets, golf balls, and club heads, baseball bats...all of this stuff CAN be made lighter, hit the ball harder, etc. Hard to see them being ruled illegal after the murderer got to wear pogo sticks in the Olympics.

---

This! How can you tell me those robot legs aren't some kind of advantage? If he was smashing world records, they would be banned, but i'm sure they just dialed those back a bit so he was elite enough to compete!

htxag09 said:

---

I've been noticing advertisements on social media for similar concept insoles. If they were to ban these shoes, would they have to check insoles also? And I assume a ban would keep other manufacturers from developing them, or would they continue to develop and the ban be lifted when everyone makes these and they are now "easily accessible/available".

I just feel like it's a slippery slope to go down.

VK Carbon Fiber Insoles

---

Interesting. I had to have custom insoles made because of Plantar issues this past year and the guy that measured/made my insoles told me that most of the ones that you can find online are not all they are cracked up to be. Even the expensive ones.

https://www.flotrack.org/articles/6676019-world-athletics-bans-prototypes-including-nike-alphafly?fbclid=IwAR34y10xE1LmZPOSXkirWjLLhFvLvCdhqshvmUMoVFO4nCNd_Ki3wWXoUqE

https://www.straitstimes.com/sport/athletics-world-athletics-bans-prototype-shoes-after-nike-vaporfly-controversy

Same article but doesn't need a subscription.

Based on the women's marathon being on 8/8 and the men's being on 8/9, I guess we can expect a bunch of new shoes in the market around 4/1. Also, this going into effect on 4/30 is really interesting as it is four days after London where they are heavily promoting Kipchoge and Bekele going head to head (as much as any two people in a marathon can, anyway).

Seems like a pretty fair ruling. Doesn't outlaw the shoes but also puts some form of parameter on their use.

It will make things interesting for the shoe companies though. They have tended to use the Olympics as a stage to roll stuff out. Now it has to be available for 4 months before its competitive use. Guess they'll have to go with just cool color combinations now.

Brooks is releasing their version 2/29. Was reading on their social media they also have a peak life expectancy of 50-100 miles.

Brooks Hyperion

Quote:

---

How do I stay in my stride? How do I conserve energy? How do I go faster? These are the questions our elite runners ask. This is the shoe that answers. With a DNA ZERO midsole and carbon fiber plate in the Hyperion Elite. Or nitrogen-infused DNA FLASH in the Hyperion Tempo. Because it wasn't just our scientists, designers, and engineers who made the Hyperion it was the runners who demanded more.

---

Quote:

---

Because it wasn't just our scientists, designers, and engineers who made the Hyperion it was the runners who demanded more.

---

Punctuation must have been the engineer's contribution.

https://www.runnersworld.com/gear/a31180532/olympic-marathon-trials-shoe-count/

Quote:

---

We counted every pair at the Olympic Marathon Trials and found 94% of finishers wore shoes with carbon-fiber plates.

---

v