TL: DR Fasting works well for me. As a big guy, how do I get enough protein (1 g/lb) in that time? my stomach hates it.

Long version:
I am 42 and have done really well in intermediate fasting. stop eating at 8, start eating at noon. Small amount of carbs. I went from 260 lbs to 225 lbs. If I continue I will have a 6 pack at 210-215 lbs. I am built like a tight end. I run 25+ miles a week in the morning and do the weight videos of P90X 3 times a week. I do major lifts (bench, deadlift, squats,...) on the other two days. 2 days rest.


Ideally I would like to lose 10-15 pounds of fat and add muscle from there ending up at 240 pounds.

Three questions.
1. Is it recommended to finish losing the fat I want to THEN put on more muscle? or the other way - put muscle on now and cut later?
2. The IF seems to work well for me. To really put on the muscle I need more protein. I would like to get up to 1g/lb as I add muscle but this is a crap ton to eat in 8 hours. I don't have the stomach size to get that in and the other veggies. I have started a protein meal in the mornings lately and I am putting back on weight (don't know if it good or bad wight yet).

I am starting to really get serious about this and need help with the transition. I do know I will will have to play with what is recommended to make it work for me.

trip said:

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Three questions.
1. Is it recommended to finish losing the fat I want to THEN put on more muscle? or the other way - put muscle on now and cut later?
2. The IF seems to work well for me. To really put on the muscle I need more protein. I would like to get up to 1g/lb as I add muscle but this is a crap ton to eat in 8 hours. I don't have the stomach size to get that in and the other veggies. I have started a protein meal in the mornings lately and I am putting back on weight (don't know if it good or bad wight yet).

I am starting to really get serious about this and need help with the transition. I do know I will will have to play with what is recommended to make it work for me.

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You only have 2 questions.

1. It's up to you. There is some research that says it's easier to put on muscle at a lower body fat %. Traditionally, people cut to 10-12%, then bulk to 18-20%
2. I've never done IF, but I have always wondered how your body can digest and absorb 180 g of protein in less than 8 hours. I think most say that your body can't absorb more than 25 g at one sitting, but Like all things nutrition, there are conflicting studies on that.

Hoosegow said:

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FWIW, your body can digest just about all the protein you can shove down your gullet.

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I think I learned in a physiology class that on average we can digest about 700g a day. Which is where the broscience fact came from that we can only absorb about 30g if protein at a time (700g/24hrs=29g/hr).

trip said:

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1. Is it recommended to finish losing the fat I want to THEN put on more muscle? or the other way - put muscle on now and cut later?

2. The IF seems to work well for me. To really put on the muscle I need more protein. I would like to get up to 1g/lb as I add muscle but this is a crap ton to eat in 8 hours. I don't have the stomach size to get that in and the other veggies. I have started a protein meal in the mornings lately and I am putting back on weight (don't know if it good or bad wight yet).

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1. You can do both simultaneously.
2. 1g/lb is an excessive amount of protein. 1.6g/kg is what you should aim for. At a current bodyweight of 225, that's a difference of 61g (225g vs 164g).

AggieLAX said:

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I Am A Critic said:

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trip said:

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2. The IF seems to work well for me. To really put on the muscle I need more protein. I would like to get up to 1g/lb as I add muscle but this is a crap ton to eat in 8 hours. I don't have the stomach size to get that in and the other veggies. I have started a protein meal in the mornings lately and I am putting back on weight (don't know if it good or bad wight yet).

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Kick the veggies. They're just taking up room

Quote:

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2. 1g/lb is an excessive amount of protein. 1.6g/kg is what you should aim for. At a current bodyweight of 225, that's a difference of 61g (225g vs 164g).

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Broscience.

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For the sake of argument, I'll assume you're not trolling.

Veggie/fiber intake has a ton of well-established health benefits. I can't believe this is up for debate or that anyone would recommend removing them from a diet.

As for protein recommendations:

A systematic review, meta-analysis and meta-regression of the effect of protein supplementation on resistance training-induced gains in muscle mass and strength in healthy adults

Summary/conclusion:

Dietary protein supplementation significantly enhanced changes in muscle strength and size during prolonged RET in healthy adults. Increasing age reduces and training experience increases the efficacy of protein supplementation during RET. With protein supplementation, protein intakes at amounts greater than ~1.6 g/kg/day do not further contribute RET-induced gains in FFM.

1g/lb is the most Broscience recommendation around.

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So 1 g/lb of protein is bad advice but above you said he could lose 10-15 lbs of fat and put on 30 lbs of muscle at the same time?...

Where do you think the energy to build muscle comes from in a deficit?

Here's an example:

Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.

Abstract

We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 +/- 1.8 to 25 +/- 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 +/- 1.7 to 18 +/- 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 +/- 1.6 to 23 +/- 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2.5 +/- 0.6, 7.0 +/- 2.1 and 4.2 +/- 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.

The casein group lost 7kg (15.4 lbs) of fat and gained 4kg (8.8 lbs) of muscle. Oh, and note the protein intake.

AggieLAX said:

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Where do you think the energy to build muscle comes from in a deficit?

Here's an example:

Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.

Abstract

We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 +/- 1.8 to 25 +/- 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 +/- 1.7 to 18 +/- 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 +/- 1.6 to 23 +/- 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2.5 +/- 0.6, 7.0 +/- 2.1 and 4.2 +/- 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate.

The casein group lost 7kg (15.4 lbs) of fat and gained 4kg (8.8 lbs) of muscle. Oh, and note the protein intake.

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Maybe because they started at a really high 26% body fat and the study was only done for 12 weeks! For op to put on 30 lbs of muscle at 42 years old with out steroids it would take 6 months at the least. And that's without the 15 pound loss in fat he wants.

Sample sizes were also really low with predictably high variance.

He isn't going to hit his goals on a permanent caloric deficit.

AggieLAX said:

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Where do you think the energy to build muscle comes from in a deficit?

Here's an example:

Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.

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Thanks for all the input.

Aggie_Boomin 21 said:

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For op to put on 30 lbs of muscle at 42 years old with out steroids it would take 6 months at the least. And that's without the 15 pound loss in fat he wants.

Sample sizes were also really low with predictably high variance.

He isn't going to hit his goals on a permanent caloric deficit.

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I am going to take the steroids statement as a compliment. I am not on steroids. I am busting my ass. I was a "has been" that could do things most couldn't (EX: ran a 4:47 mile in junior high, bench 375 in college). I say that not to brag, but to say I know what I am doing and how to push myself and listen to my body. when I started I had very under muscled and carrying a lot of extra fat. On top of that I am a really big guy. 30 pounds is like 15-20 for most men. Hell, I gained 16 pounds over thanksgiving.

I have been playing around with the limited calories and protein load. Personally, I am finding this harder than the lifting and cardio.

I was expressing doubt about being able to put on 30lbs of muscle and lose 15lbs of fat all while on a caloric deficit at 42 years old, not saying you were or should be on steroids.

Taking testosterone if you are is taking steroids outside of anabolic vs natural version. Not saying u are.

I know many folks saying I don't take steroids I just have low t and I take injections and now I'm a beef cake.