The story about Mary Cain and her experience with Nike.

https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000006788354/nike-running-mary-cain.html

Can't think of a single reason to doubt anything in this story. No coach should be allowed to train an athlete out of her monthly cycle. Happens all the time, though.

Salazar is a POS. And I once really liked the guy. Met him a bunch of times through work.

94chem said:

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Can't think of a single reason to doubt anything in this story. No coach should be allowed to train an athlete out of her monthly cycle. Happens all the time, though.

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curious... i have 4 daughters... high school and under... 3 in sports... what is training 'out of her monthly cycle' specifically?

Did you read the article or watch the video?

AggieOO said:

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Did you read the article?

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i watched the video... she said she developed a condition... it didn't go into specifics about it...

i'm looking for specifics...

essentially... how do you 'train inside a monthly cycle'?

Here's an excerpt from the related runner's world article:

"Cain, now 23, said Salazar wanted to give her birth control pills and diuretics to lose weight. (Diuretics are banned under anti-doping code because they can be used to mask the presence of other prohibited substances.) She said she stopped menstruating for three years, a sign that her body didn't have enough estrogen to maintain her bone health. She said she broke five bones."

https://www.runnersworld.com/news/a29750469/mary-cains-allegations-against-nike-and-salazar/

Ag92NGranbury said:

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AggieOO said:

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Did you read the article?

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i watched the video... she said she developed a condition... it didn't go into specifics about it...

i'm looking for specifics...

essentially... how do you 'train inside a monthly cycle'?

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My above post might clarify. I think you were reading it incorrectly and/or it wasn't worded well.

no...i didn't read it incorrectly... was looking for specifics... what you posted was the actual consequences of training outside the cycle... but thanks to google, i found some answers...

https://coconutsandkettlebells.com/training-with-your-menstrual-cycle/

I guess we were talking about two different things about a similar topic then.

When I first read that I was confused as well. Wasn't sure if it was referring to training "around" her period/cycle, or training her till she lost her period/cycle.

I feel like a lot of this science is fairly new and gaining momentum. Most new garmin watches now have cycle tracking and recommend how to adjust workouts. Note, as I'm a dude I have no experience with any of it, just found it odd when they started advertising. Hadn't looked into it anymore or read anything else about it until this thread/article.

htxag09 said:

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I feel like a lot of this science is fairly new and gaining momentum. Most new garmin watches now have cycle tracking and recommend how to adjust workouts. Note, as I'm a dude I have no experience with any of it, just found it odd when they started advertising. Hadn't looked into it anymore or read anything else about it until this thread/article.

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Woman here. The science isn't new. It's been known for a long time that a variety of things cause amenorrhea (the absence of menstruation), the most obvious one being pregnancy. It's not a disorder in and of itself, but a symptom of something else.

When it comes to people who are extremely physically active/fit, it can be due to excessive exercise, not taking in enough calories, or low body weight and/or body fat percentage. Something like 60+% of ballet dancers and long distance runners experience it. Young girls who are elite athletes and dancers also see a delay in the initial onset of their cycles, sometimes by several years compared to the average.

The only reason you see it "advertised" now is because the fitness trackers want to sell women a device they can use to "conveniently" track their cycle, just like you can track your steps, calorie intake, water intake, etc. Prior to wearable devices, women just did this with a calendar or a journal.

This sounds consistent with what I've been told. Elite runners I know miss a month here and there. If they go more than two months, they start to get worried. Going three years sounds like the kind of stuff anorexics go through.

Not saying it's a new discovery, maybe I worded that wrong. I also am disconnected as I don't have kids/daughters, so maybe the science isn't advancing. But I disagree that this is just marketing like you're implying. Don't get me wrong, that's a huge component, they're in business to sell watches.

But wearable devices have changed greatly over the last few years. They went from simply having a timer, to a GPS to track distances and paces, to adding HR, now they have temperature sensors (can pretty accurately tell how you're adjusting to heat), Pulse OX sensors (accurately tell how you're adjusting to altitude), VO2 max that's now accurate as it accounts for previously mentioned components, etc. Based on all this your watch can be a coach now, tell you how to adjust your training to see maximum impact and not overtrain.

So I have no doubt the end goal for these cycle trackers are not to simply be trackers. They will recommend how to workout more effectively as well.

Ag92NGranbury said:

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94chem said:

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Can't think of a single reason to doubt anything in this story. No coach should be allowed to train an athlete out of her monthly cycle. Happens all the time, though.

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curious... i have 4 daughters... high school and under... 3 in sports... what is training 'out of her monthly cycle' specifically?

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Unhealthy eating and overtraining. Excessive mileages, excessive oxidative stress, obsession with weight. Very common in gymnastics and running, but even more common as we see year round athletics, where coaches own the young women around the clock.

To the point about trackers, they really only work if you aren't on birth control. BC obviously influences a woman's natural cycle so the information from trackers like my Garmin watch aren't as true as they would be if I wasn't on BC

Ag92NGranbury said:

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no...i didn't read it incorrectly... was looking for specifics... what you posted was the actual consequences of training outside the cycle... but thanks to google, i found some answers...

https://coconutsandkettlebells.com/training-with-your-menstrual-cycle/

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The article you linked is a very different topic from what Mary Cain (and others) have experienced from severe over training. Its kind of alarming that you don't see that.

Isn't Koko Klosterhoffen also a Salazar athlete? She looks like the poster child for this type of stuff (granted she was a model before becoming a track star)

Think one problem was a lot of old school coaches like Salazar coach men and women very similar but when are not small men. We are getting better with wearable devices and understanding body markers but still have a lot of work to do. I love training by feel but it is by no means the smartest way now (VO2, HRV, etc.).

Salazar was paid a lot of money to win and did it at all cost. When a young woman does not have a period for a few years that is a huge tell. Some women can handle the constant stress and others need more rest. This is an example of Salazar's one size fits all training and not training the individuals as individuals.

These sentences in the article caught my attention:

Quote:

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A big part of this problem is that women and girls are being forced to meet athletic standards that are based on how men and boys develop. If you try to make a girl fit a boy's development timeline, her body is at risk of breaking down. That is what happened to Cain.

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If you do some research into it, it's pretty shocking how much accepted biology and medicine for women is based on a man's body and scaled down.

Female athlete triad, or RED-S....because males can get it too...

The problem goes way beyond Salazar being an "old school" coach. Salazar's issue is the black/white mentality of his willingness to try and have his athletes do anything unless expressly illegal. He will do anything for an advantage that is unethical as long as it's not banned in the sport, he flirted too close to that line which is why he's banned today, because (I believe) he crossed the line without intending to.

Mary Cain is but a symptom of what Salazar has been doing for years. I have 100% confidence in the truth of everything she said in her interview.

Sub4 said:

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The problem goes way beyond Salazar being an "old school" coach. Salazar's issue is the black/white mentality of his willingness to try and have his athletes do anything unless expressly illegal. He will do anything for an advantage that is unethical as long as it's not banned in the sport, he flirted too close to that line which is why he's banned today, because (I believe) he crossed the line without intending to.

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Ummmm...