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70 year old LA Marathon winner disqualified

4,125 Views | 37 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by CDub06
Matsui
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https://news.yahoo.com/l-marathon-cheating-scandal-70-020046654.html

He beat his next competitor by over an hour. Turns out he skipped some part of the course and now he was found dead in the LA river.
RockOn
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Wow.
Rudyjax
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Marathon investigation has been all in on him for the last few months.
RockOn
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Yeah I wasnt a fan of that guy or his website before. Now hopefully he'll get a wake up call.
ptothemo
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Edit - I see the point about him being found dead is in the OP, I missed that before
RockOn
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I missed it too at first. I knew about him getting caught cheating but just read this morning about his death.

Sounds like he jumped off a bridge in to shallow water
wangus12
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I think earlier this week there were pictures circulating of him on a bike the day of the marathon. Probably the last straw. Terrible to hear.

Rudyjax
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ptothemo said:

Edit - I see the point about him being found dead is in the OP, I missed that before



Yeah. The dead is the story not the caught cheating. I edited mine too. Title fail.
wessimo
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Are you saying he should stop outing cheaters because they might kill themselves?
RockOn
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Scott Kumer of TJM podcast over a year ago had this discussion with him (on a podcast) and I tended to agree with Scott's position. Cheating in marathons is bad and cheaters should be banned from races etc. But the public/internet shaming is too much and two wrongs do not make a right.

There's no reason these things can't be handled in private with race directors. But that doesn't get clicks and ad revenue from a website.

I admittedly was good with the outtings when I first learned of the website years ago, but after reading more as they unfold, its just made me really uncomfortable.

Edit: found the podcast (2 years ago, time flies!)
https://tenjunkmiles.libsyn.com/long-run-37-derek-murphy-marathoninvestigationcom
AggieOO
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I see and agree with both sides. The problem with trying to handle it in private with RDs is that many, especially with big races, don't care. The public pressure is the only thing that gets them to act. And even then, sometimes they don't do anything.

But there has to be another way, as public shaming isn't right either.
YokelRidesAgain
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wessimo said:

Are you saying he should stop outing cheaters because they might kill themselves?
I think he should get a damn life. This has become a FULL TIME JOB for this guy, subsidized by begging for money on the Internet.

Frank Meza's habit of cheating in marathons is embarrassing and silly, and the people who finished second, third and fourth in the races he "won" had a legitimate beef with him--but it also seems that he did a lot of good in his life and whatever compulsion drove him to cheat, hounding the guy on the Internet until he literally killed himself is a disproportionate punishment.

Derek, on the other hand, doesn't do a damn thing except expose a "problem" that is pretty dang low on the list of things that are wrong with society.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
CoachRTM
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I think outing them, exposing how they cheated and stripping them of their medals is a good thing.

Anything beyond that is wrong. No need to find their address, send them hate letters, try to get them fired, etc. (not that anyone is doing that, just hypothetically)
Vernada
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I guess I'm torn. Generally I agree the public shaming and invasion of privacy is a bit much most of the time.

However, in these cases it's not like he said something that offended people or took a radical position on something. He actively and purposely cheated with the goal of receiving public praise. So when that backfires I struggle to find sympathy.
wessimo
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I feel like the guy is doing a public service outing these cheaters, especially the ones that are cheating their way to AG awards and Boston Marathon spots. In each case they are doing real harm to another individual who likely trained their butt off only to have that accomplishment stolen from them.

Clearly the RDs aren't doing their jobs when world-record AG times go unscrutinized.

I'm not sure when posting the evidence online crosses the line into public shaming. Seems like Derek usually sticks to the facts (although he can also be rather antagonistic).

Rudyjax
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Vernada said:

I guess I'm torn. Generally I agree they public sheening l shaming and invasion of privacy is a bit much most of the time.

However, in these cases it's not like he said something that offended people or took a radical position on something. He actively and purposely cheated with the goal of receiving public praise. So when that backfires I struggle to find sympathy.
And when confronted he lied and lied and lied again.
wbt5845
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wessimo said:

I feel like the guy is doing a public service outing these cheaters, especially the ones that are cheating their way to AG awards and Boston Marathon spots. In each case they are doing real harm to another individual who likely trained their butt off only to have that accomplishment stolen from them.

Clearly the RDs aren't doing their jobs when world-record AG times go unscrutinized.

I'm not sure when posting the evidence online crosses the line into public shaming. Seems like Derek usually sticks to the facts (although he can also be rather antagonistic).
I concur. I know I have finished 4th/5th in my age group in races where I'm pretty sure at least one of the guys ahead of me cheated. Of course, I have no way to prove it - but I know, for instance, there was a place people could have cut the race short.

There are guys I've seen getting a medal I know were behind me and I never saw pass me. And I'm over 55, so there are often not a whole lot of guys my age running and we have a feel for where we are relative to the other old guys.
CDub06
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I was going to start this same thread. I saw this headline this weekend and thought about how hard Derek (marathon investigation) had been hammering him. To be fair, it snowballed with other outlets picking it up, but he was the one fanning the flame.

I immediately thought back to the podcast episode posted above where they discussed this and he was asked what happens when someone kills themselves over this. It was prophetic.

This is very upsetting. But I honestly don't think Derek was out of line in this. The guy was profiting off of cheating and he was outed. He had every chance to come clean. He didn't sentence him to death, he just reported the facts. And it was news because larger outlets ran with it.

I don't think people should die over this - pretty bold stance, I know. But I do think people should be held accountable when they're cheating other people. I can't even begin to imagine cheating in something like this, cheating to win or even cheating to just finish. I've liked Derek's process, I've liked the stories, and I appreciate that he's holding people accountable. But I'm not sure where he goes from here. It might be a good time to just pack the site up.
Vernada
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Quote:

It might be a good time to just pack the site up.
Is it really a bad thing if it becomes known that a side effect of marathon cheating is possible suicide?

I don't think so. The solution is pretty simple: don't cheat.
Rudyjax
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Agreed.

Derek also gives everyone a chance to respond before he posts.
CDub06
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I mean, I wouldn't blame him for keeping the site going, but I'm sure he's going to get a lot of blowback on this - whether he should or not. Regardless, I'm sure he's feeling responsible. I'd like to see the site continue, but who knows...

As I said, I don't think Derek is at fault. This isn't the first guy to kill himself when years of lies come out and his reputation is tarnished.
YokelRidesAgain
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It should also be mentioned that Derek doesn't confine himself to exposing blatant cheaters.

One of his current stories is about having a (legitimate) 3:28 BQ time stripped from some poor girl because her friend ran part of the course with her (an unauthorized pacer). Admittedly, she did break the rules and if the RD disqualified her for it, that's understandable--but that is absolutely not the kind of issue that is important enough for someone to request donations to expose.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
coop-aero-06
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Ultrarunner Podcast wrote a few thoughts this morning, and I pretty much agree with his assessment:

https://ultrarunnerpodcast.com/ultramarathon-daily-news-mon-july-8/
Quote:

  • First and most importantly, condolences to the Meza family. They lost a husband, a dad, a grandfather, a brother, and an uncle. From articles I've seen, they believe he was unjustly targeted and just want Frank back, and that's heartbreaking.
  • Over the next few weeks and months, I'm hoping this discussion blossoms into real talk about our cultureboth in an away from runningand how to be kinder to each other. Yes, he cheated at races, and yes, he apparently had more personal pride and worth tied into his running accomplishments than we'd thought, but I know that I've been in positions when I've dug myself deep into a hole and have been unable to see a way out. Luckily, I didn't have the public pressure of social media bearing down on me. This is a tragic example of how oneor fine, manymistakes ballooned into a man losing his life. No "rules" can be mandated that'll prevent this sort of thing in the future, so it'll take simple understanding and compassion within the running community to navigate these waters.
  • Going forward, what's the public or media expected to do when someone is caught cheating? Simply look the other way out of fear the accused may later take their own life? Would the LAM have awarded the legitimate winner his award if this has been kept a private matter? How can this be handled better in the future?
  • I feel for Derek Murphy from Marathon Investigation. The emotional toll and guilt he must feel (justified or not, doesn't matter) is something I certainly don't envy. I don't believe it's Derek's fault, but his involvement must weigh on him tremendously.
  • Much of the blame and attention I'm seeing is focused on Marathon Investigation and the articles that outlined Meza's finishes. I followed the posts pretty closely and while they were thorough, I found them to also be respectful and don't see why MI is being blamed while the LetsRun forums are being largely ignored. It was those posters who were attempting to contact his patients, harass his family, and attempting to sabotage him at work, and that is wildly inappropriate. (Seems most of those posts have been scrubbed from the forums.)

I don't think Marathon Investigation crossed any lines at all in exposing him. But it sounds like there were lots of internet trolls who kept hammering and posting Frank's personal information online. That kind of stuff is crossing the line.
Rudyjax
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YokelRidesAgain said:

It should also be mentioned that Derek doesn't confine himself to exposing blatant cheaters.

One of his current stories is about having a (legitimate) 3:28 BQ time stripped from some poor girl because her friend ran part of the course with her (an unauthorized pacer). Admittedly, she did break the rules and if the RD disqualified her for it, that's understandable--but that is absolutely not the kind of issue that is important enough for someone to request donations to expose.


I took that one as more educational than blaming.

CDub06
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Let's Run was on this well before Derek posted anything. These guys put the Outdoor board to shame. I see some vitriol and piling on, but no contact info or threats.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9307635&page=289
94chem
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He cheated, lied about a near world record time for his age group, wouldn't back down when busted, and couldn't handle the pressure. It's an interesting psychological study. It's almost as if he believed it. Other than being an obscure sport that nobody follows, it's also very different from the lies told by Lance Armstrong, Barry Bonds, or Roger Clemens. In their cases, they were demonstrably great. The home runs actually left the park, the bike really did finish first. This is interesting because the entire result is fabricated. It's like our reality is whatever we can get people to believe on social media.
91_Aggie
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CDub06 said:

Let's Run was on this well before Derek posted anything. These guys put the Outdoor board to shame. I see some vitriol and piling on, but no contact info or threats.

https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=9307635&page=289
letsrun.com is inhabited by some of the most sad, bitter men and boys in the world. I'm a runner and couldn't stand that site. Bunch of men who never got over the chip on their shoulder from high school by not have enough hand-eye coordination for ball sports, and felt they were always picked on by the football/basketball/etc jocks.

AgPediRPh
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I googled the 3:28 BQ DQ with the unauthorized pacer. Derek came across as a "holier than thou" ***** in his blog explanation. I understand the need for fairness in the sport, but the old boy is power tripping.

Edit: Didn't realize ***** would be censored. I guess I need another synonym for sticking my finger on a needle.
culdeus
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The entire story was amazing. Guy was pathological.

I like how he stretched out so he didn't hit the mat quite so soon.

One of the early threads tried to guess where he hid and put his bike.

Is the answer just to have mats every mile?
Vernada
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GoPro mandatory
CDub06
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I've only looked at it a handful of times to get the backstory on some of these stories but it's so hard to follow because you don't have to register to post. You're anonymous as it is, but that takes it to a whole new level. That breeds some bad stuff.
culdeus
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CDub06 said:

I've only looked at it a handful of times to get the backstory on some of these stories but it's so hard to follow because you don't have to register to post. You're anonymous as it is, but that takes it to a whole new level. That breeds some bad stuff.


It's basically 4chan. For running. Not sure why that is needed exactly.

That being said they had guys putting scripts on GitHub to sift thru zillions of race photos looking for this guy.

Are these mats expensive? Not sure why every mile or so isn't the solution for bq and whatever else matters like records.
RustyBoltz
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YokelRidesAgain said:

wessimo said:

Are you saying he should stop outing cheaters because they might kill themselves?
I think he should get a damn life. This has become a FULL TIME JOB for this guy, subsidized by begging for money on the Internet.
...

Derek, on the other hand, doesn't do a damn thing except expose a "problem" that is pretty dang low on the list of things that are wrong with society.
Not to get too off point, but Youtube and Instagram are full of people making a "living" off far less while still begging for money. At least Derek provides a legitimate service that will hopefully push RD to make changes to their races to curb cheating as this "sport" continues to grow.
In one instance I think he is doing a great service bring light to cheating at Disney races and pushing BAA to revoke them as a qualifier.
AggieOO
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Adding timing mats is costly for smaller races, but it would be a drop in the bucket for races like NYC, Boston, etc.
zachsccr
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I'm a fan of randomly placed mats on course. Have some of the normals (half way, quarter of the way, every 5k, or what ever), but also include 1-2, depending on race distance, that are unannounced. Would it solve things? No. But it might help dissuade some cheaters or make it harder.
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