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400M/800M question (time and training)

4,163 Views | 39 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Sweep4-2
Sweep4-2
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7:38p, 8/16/18
Question for the runners: My 7th grade son is running track (reluctantly) and I'm training with him to help motivate him. Not a 'runner' beyond the occasional 5k, but have gotten curious about what a respectable time in the 400M and 800M would be for a non-runner in their late 40's - and also would like to find resources to help me train to increase speed (recognizing that I'm not an experienced runner).

Any recommendations or resources to help a non-runner understand how best to get in shape to run these short distances (at a respectable speed)?
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rilloaggie
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5:31a, 8/17/18
AG
I ran both in high school. My pr's were 2:07 in the 800 and :51 in the 400. I was never great but my old school track coach's workouts were simple as can be and literally never changed. Had several kids that were more talented and harder working do the same workout and make to to the next level. We ran with our own stopwatches and he just made sure and called us out if it looked like we were slacking. I did something very close to this for all 4 years of high school:

Monday 8x200. Keep the splits sub 30. ~2-3 mins rest between sprints.
Tuesday 3x600 sub 1:45, 4-5 mins rest between
Wednesday was the suck. 6x400. Sub 60seconds. 4-5 mins rest
Thursday- easy mile and a half
Friday-Saturday's were meets.

You can adjust the times based on fitness. I was hoping to break 2:00 in the 800 so my times were based on that. Today as a 31yo that runs distance I could probably run 2:45 in the 800 but then I'd probably feel dead and not run for another week to recover. I don't do any speed work anymore but I used to think 1.5 miles was a long run. I don't feel like I'm running far now until I get up past 7-8 miles. Rambling complete, good luck to your kiddo!
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JimInBCS
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9:04a, 8/17/18
The key in my opinion is for your son to enjoy running. It needs to first be fun...results can come later. Might try having him go out for XC this fall. Running with a group...being part of a team...can sometimes help the motivation aspect. Too, at that age running an 800 is more about strength and endurance than speed. XC will help him in that regard.

As for a plan for a non-runner in their late 40's to somehow gain sufficient speed to be a workout partner for their son....I think you may be settling yourself up for injury. Might try doing some of his longer runs with him during the fall, and simply supporting him on those days that might have some speed work. Again, him being on a team will allow him to have kids at his level of fitness with which to train.

Can't say enough how making his run training "fun" at that age is important. If he takes to it and enjoys it, he'll run exponentially faster that having it forced upon him.
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Sweep4-2
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2:11p, 8/17/18
That is great info!! Thank you both for the great information and advice!! Much appreciated!!

My son texted today from school to tell me he's going to join the XC team, though I think it has more to do with several girls who are running XC than the actual running. But that's fine with me, I just want him to be active, fit and social and am 100% ok with him choosing whichever sport brings him the most enjoyment. Too many of his friends are inactive and spends all their waking hours on video games, so I'm hoping he'll find a sport to enjoy.

As far as me, I'm going to run with him on the trails around our area, but for fun am going to train for the 800m to align with what he'll be running in the spring. Will modify that workout above to take the distance, and my age / fitness level into account though. My goal at this point is to run an 800 this weekend at the high school track (which I expect to be humbling), train for 12 weeks and then time again just to see if I can move the mark.

Thanks to both of y'all for your perspective and advice!
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coop-aero-06
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2:36p, 8/17/18
AG
+1 to everything that rilloaggie said. I had very similar times in high school and would recommend the same workouts.
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JimInBCS
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In reply to Sweep4-2 • 3:00p, 8/17/18
Be sure to post your "before" 800 time from this coming weekend and your "after" time a few months from now....we look forward to seeing your progress!

You other guys must have been studs to go 2:07 on less than 10 miles a week
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P.U.T.U
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3:21p, 8/17/18
AG
You have to build up depending on their shape. Run the straights walk the curves on the tracks is a good start. I will say if you run either correctly both SUCK; hands, feet, and lungs were almost numb and everything burned.

I ran the 400 and 800 in middle school (should have kept with it in high school) and was around 54 in the 400 and 2:04 in the 800. At that age consistency matters more than anything. To me the 400 and 800 training were completely different, lots more sprints and such for the 400 while the 800 you need some tempo work.

XC is totally different and a lot easier to slack (seriously running through neighborhoods in the morning after school starts is asking for it, maybe not as easy now with GPS). I believe shorter when younger is better but can't blame him for going after girls.

Oh and good for you willing to work with your son. Seems to becoming rare these days.
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Sweep4-2
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3:09p, 8/19/18
Ok, went out and ran my benchmark 400/800 runs today at the high school track. Warmed up with a slow mile and some Survivor (Eye of the Tiger). I know it's cheesy but I'm 47 years old and needed to work up a sweat (not difficult in Houston today) and my courage, then ran the 800m.

My 800m time was 2:43 of pure, excruciating pain. First 400m was approx 1:10 (too fast for me in hindsight). Second 400m was horrible and I really unraveled down the backstretch and curve before recovering down the final 100m or so. Finished and nearly threw up.

Walked a lap, ran another slow lap to take a short break and ran a 400m just to see how it'd go. It was painful as well. Felt the pain from the start, and I finished in 1:08. As soon as I finished I texted my wife and said "I survived, so far"

So I'm going to spend the next 12 weeks seeing what kind of improvements I can make.

My son starts XC Monday, so he and I will be running together occasionally on the trails, which I'm looking forward to. While he's still not a real physical kid, I'm hoping he'll find that athletics can be fun (and I eagerly look forward to him leaving me in the dust sometime in the near future)!!

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coop-aero-06
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4:21p, 8/19/18
AG
Nice job! Not too many middle aged dudes can get up off the couch and run a 2:43 and follow that up with a 68. Good luck with the training!
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JimInBCS
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In reply to Sweep4-2 • 4:46p, 8/19/18
Great job! Lot faster than I would have thought.
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texagbeliever
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In reply to Sweep4-2 • 5:16p, 8/19/18
Impressive times!

I would encourage pilates. He should get the base miles in xc training but core strength and flexibility can make a huge difference in performance. Also for you it will help with injury prevention. I'm not saying go to a class but maybe look up some good poses and what not to do.

Ps you could probably run a 2:35 with a slower start.
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BTD
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In reply to rilloaggie • 5:30p, 8/19/18
rilloaggie said:
I ran both in high school. My pr's were 2:07 in the 800 and :51 in the 400. I was never great but my old school track coach's workouts were simple as can be and literally never changed. Had several kids that were more talented and harder working do the same workout and make to to the next level. We ran with our own stopwatches and he just made sure and called us out if it looked like we were slacking. I did something very close to this for all 4 years of high school:

Monday 8x200. Keep the splits sub 30. ~2-3 mins rest between sprints.
Tuesday 3x600 sub 1:45, 4-5 mins rest between
Wednesday was the suck. 6x400. Sub 60seconds. 4-5 mins rest
Thursday- easy mile and a half
Friday-Saturday's were meets.

You can adjust the times based on fitness. I was hoping to break 2:00 in the 800 so my times were based on that. Today as a 31yo that runs distance I could probably run 2:45 in the 800 but then I'd probably feel dead and not run for another week to recover. I don't do any speed work anymore but I used to think 1.5 miles was a long run. I don't feel like I'm running far now until I get up past 7-8 miles. Rambling complete, good luck to your kiddo!

At the hs level this is definitely on the light side for number of reps. For somebody in their forties, god bless you.
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Sweep4-2
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11:57p, 8/19/18
Thanks all, I really appreciate the advice from everyone here (and the nice comments too re my benchmark run time!!). Knowing that I'd be posting the results of my time here on this thread is what made me keep going....because my legs were screaming for me to give up on the second lap on the 800....

After today's run i decided to focus only on the 800m. Don't have any specific time in mind, but am just going to aim for a 12 week injury-free 800 training routine, while also spending time on the trails as a training partner with my son training for XC (first practice tomorrow).

So anyway, I'll keep track of my times (and my son's XC experience) and will be back with updates/results!!!



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theeyetest
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3:17p, 8/20/18
I ran the 800 my sophomore and junior year. I was district champion both years and qualified for regionals both years as well (obviously). The 800, in my opinion, is the hardest race there is (other than the 300 hurdles). I ran sub 2:00 800m on a regular basis. If I went and ran one right now, being in fairly good shape, I'd probably run around 2:30ish.

I'd suggest starting off with a ladder type of training.

Example:
100m
200m
300m
400m
400m
300m
200m
100m

It sucks but it's a good speed workout. We usually finished up with a mile "cool down" for endurance work.
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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4:41p, 8/21/18
I was forced into running the 800. As I advanced through high school, this white guy found his genetics working against him as I was slowly pushed out of the 400m, out of the 4X4, out of being the backup of the backup for the 4x4, leaving me with the 800m as the only event I could be competitive in. I was too slow for the sprints, but too large for the distant events (I played football too).

The 800m is by far the worst race out there. 800 meters of H E L L.
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Sweep4-2
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9:34p, 8/21/18
Oh man, so y'all are telling me I picked the worst distance possible to try and train for??? Dang it!!

Oh well, first workout is in the books so I'm sticking with it to support my son in his training.

Btw, watched some Masters track yesterday (60-65 Men's 800m). Thet looked little and old....but they didn't look old when the winner (67 years old) won with a 2:20. Wow!
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AggieOO
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9:37p, 8/21/18
Yep, 800 is the worst.

If you run the 400, you run 400 as hard as you can. If you are doing the 800, you run a 400 as hard as you can, and then when you feel like you are going to die, you run another 400 as hard as you can.
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AZAG08
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12:47p, 8/28/18
AG
When I ran track the 800 was used as a punishment for sprinters
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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In reply to AZAG08 • 2:07p, 8/28/18
AZAG08 said:
When I ran track the 800 was used as a punishment for sprinters


Maybe that was my issue; the track coach just didn't like me.
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dave99ag
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3:00p, 8/28/18
AG
Our best 800m runner always puked after. That was a sign he kicked ass. I was too slow and relegated to the standard 1600m / 3200m duo.

Those ladder workouts are rough, but will get you fast!
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htxag09
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4:31p, 8/28/18
AG
I get what everyone is saying about the 800 being the hardest race. And I agree for almost all athletes. However, when you get to a certain caliber athlete, aka Olympic runners, does the same hold true? I'd imagine the mile and 5k are essentially sprints for these athletes, thus harder than an 800?
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JimInBCS
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In reply to htxag09 • 6:22p, 8/28/18
htxag09 said:
I get what everyone is saying about the 800 being the hardest race. And I agree for almost all athletes. However, when you get to a certain caliber athlete, aka Olympic runners, does the same hold true? I'd imagine the mile and 5k are essentially sprints for these athletes, thus harder than an 800?


While far fromOlympic quality, I did go 1:52 and 3:47 (1500), and ran plenty of steeples, 5k's, and 10k's on the track. Each are difficult in their own respect...but to me the 800 hurt far worse than the others. As someone mentioned earlier, you pretty much ran a 400 at 95% effort, then followed it up with another 400 full out. Even my teeth hurt afterwards. The other races could hurt as bad if you ran them properly...but the short duration of the 800 made it easy to focus and go hard the whole way most every time you ran it. . More difficult to keep your focus and put out that degree of effort with the longer races.
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94chem
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10:40p, 8/29/18
My 7th grade daughter (last year) ran CC, and then played on the basketball team, and then ran the 800 in track. She ran 2:40, and finished 3rd in district. School record for 7th grade is 2:34. She actually likes track better than basketball. Takes a warped mind to enjoy the 800 more than hoops...
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rilloaggie
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7:46a, 8/30/18
AG
This thread motivated me to see how fast I could run an 800 again. Closest track to me is at an elementary school. The "track" is closer to 300m and it's a concrete square with rounded corners. Ended up running 2:27 based on GPS but I'm thinking I'll head to an actual track next week and see what I can do without the sharp corners!
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94chem
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3:17p, 8/30/18
Should just rename the 800 "Whitey's Last Stand."
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Sweep4-2
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In reply to rilloaggie • 11:16p, 8/30/18
Glad to see that someone else is trying this horrible 800m too so I'm not alone in my suffering. But you're moving a lot faster than me!!! Update us on how it goes on the track next week.

I'm really surprised at how painful and mentally taxing this 800m running/training is, both physically and mentally (especially the mental part.). Not a stranger to hard training/conditioning, but it's just way different than my normal training and much harder than I realized.
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JimInBCS
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In reply to Sweep4-2 • 8:39a, 11/20/18
Got an update for us?
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c-jags
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8:50p, 11/21/18
In my wife's hometown and went to do some sprints with my niece and son up at the track for fun since she's training for track and likes the work outs.

A) yes I beat her

B) 74 second dead sprint 400m. Strava says it's my record. 20+ seconds off of HS. I was scared to try an 800 after that and I hurt badly today.
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Sweep4-2
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In reply to JimInBCS • 9:45a, 11/22/18
Yeah, wish I had a better update. But my training hasn't gone as planned. I injured my ribs and sternum in late September (via Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu training) and couldn't run at all. Taking normal breaths hurt, and running was out of the question. Back to running in the past couple weeks, and am going to train thru year end and post the time.
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Sweep4-2
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5:42p, 1/1/19
Well, I promised an update...but it's a disappointing one. Injuries and a job change impacted training...but the real issue was that I just didn't realize how hard this type of training is and struggled mentally both in training and running for time. So here it is:

The bad: Was not able to put together another really hard 800 m that improved much on my original benchmark time. Either gassed early and blew up or ran too slowly and couldn't make up time.

The good: Ran a 28 second 200m and followed it up with a 1:03 400m today at the track. Felt good (for my age of course). Lol.

So overall a bit disappointed. But glad I tried this for a couple reasons. 1) I now realize how horrible the 800m is and have more sympathy for my son and the training he's doing 2) Running shorter distances for time pushed me out of my comfort zone (way out).

My son's track season starts soon and I'm looking forward to him running off and leaving me in the dust in the 800m!!!
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wcb
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In reply to Sweep4-2 • 8:52p, 1/1/19
AG
Sweep4-2 said:
The good: Ran a 28 second 200m and followed it up with a 1:03 400m today at the track.
Kudos man. That's a legit 400.
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Sweep4-2
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In reply to wcb • 9:54p, 1/1/19
Thank you!! It was fun training, and my son also got into training together (which was my original goal to begin with) and we 'raced' a number of times.

I'm going to rest for a few months and start running 400/200 when it's better training weather. And I've decided to never try the 800m again. My son can have that one. I'm too old!

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TommyGun
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10:21a, 1/2/19
AG
I ran track for one year in HS because our football coach mandated it if you were not playing another sport in the off-season. I got grouped into the 400m relay and 800m group. To this day, those three months of track practice and meets were the hardest physical challenges I've had in my life. I thought I was in pretty good shape from off season football conditioning and was quickly humbled after the first track practice. I ran my butt off in every district meet and my crowning achievement for the 800 was coming in 3rd from last in my final meet. I had been last in each one before that. After that year, I picked up soccer in the off-season and didn't touch the track again during high school.

The worst workout I can remember were 10 400s under 60s with 60s of rest in between. I think there maybe 2 guys on our team who could actually pull it off in the given time allotments. If coach wasn't pleased with you effort he'd just keep adding on laps. I would usually cramp up and have to spend about 20 minutes laid out on the track afterwards before heading to the locker room.
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Presley OBannons Sword
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10:33a, 1/2/19
An 800m run in combat boots and utilities is part of the annual combat fitness test we run in the Marines. Ran mine right before Christmas. 2:47. It's so painful.
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7yrplan
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3:27p, 1/2/19
AG
Every year some buddies from high school/ college meet up in Moab for an annual mountain biking weekend. Been doing it for more than a decade.

Part of the tradition is now a 400m race at the local high school track to relive the glory days since most were track/cc athletes.

Bunch of 40ish year olds having a near death experience for one lap of glory. I'm sore for days after.

Goal is always a sub 60. Not made it yet.
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