I started a thread 1.5 weeks ago about tracking micros and still not dropping the 5-10# I want to be in single digit BF% and someone recommended IF and to dropping my calories a little more (thanks wcb & Bigtruckguy).

I read up on IM and thought it sounded like a fun/new challenge. I began my fast on 7/17 (today is day 8). I have enjoyed the challenge and can see myself doing this for a while. It took a little getting used to not eat my 500cal protein shake at 7am after my 5:45am workouts, but come 12 noon, I make up for it! I'm on a 16:8 fast and it seems to work well for my schedule. I'm trying to get 1,650 cal per day (165g-protein, 165g-carbs and 37g-fat). I get within 90-100% of these numbers every day.

Here is my question(s).
Question #1 - I decided to step on the scale about 4-5 days after starting IF. The scale didn't show much change. I wasn't really surprised and kinda shrugged it off. Screw it! But that got me thinking. In the past, I was used to eating 2 larger meals during the day and 1 lighter meal at night. Then-when I weighed myself, I didn't really have a bunch of food in me. Well, now I eat 40-50% of my daily calories at night and always seem/feel more "full" when I wake up. Sure, I can drink a few cups of BLACK coffee and have my morning BM, but by then I will have had 8-12 cups of water from the water while at the gym +coffee. Anyone else have this issue? Again, I'm sure after doing this for 3-4 weeks the numbers will show for itself, but time will tell.

Questions #2 Coffee. I have read that coffee is fine and to just drink it black or with a splash of milk. I usually drink 1 cup in the morning. My cup/mug is equivalent to 4 measuring cups. I add 20 cals worth of creamer and 2 packets worth of sweet-n-low (sorry-can't do straight black coffee just yet). Then around 8 or 9am I drink another mug/cup (4-cups) worth of coffee. That brings my daily coffee to 8 measuring cups, 4 packets of sweet-n-low, and 2 dashes of creamers (40 cal total). What are y'alls thoughts on total coffee consumption? Is this too much? Or am I ok? My 2nd cup really help stop my 9am hunger craving!

Thanks for answering the rookie's questions! I read things online that contradict different opinions

It sounds like your on the right track... the 18:6 works really well for me as well, and my routine sounds pretty similar to yours, except that I workout in the evening after work, then have a big meal after that.

In regards to weighing yourself, try to be consistent with the time of day that you step on the scale as your weight can fluctuate throughout the day. I try to weigh myself first thing in the morning before consuming anything or putting on any clothes.

Coffee... I wouldn't worry about this too much. There are some people who say IF only works with 0 (or close to it) calories during the fasted time. In my experience, 40 calories worth of creamer won't be enough to upset that.

Since your at the 8 day mark, assuming your are truly eating at a deficit, you should see results on the scale now or very soon. Get ready for the "whoosh" when you start to lose the water weight.

I started doing the 16:8 a couple weeks ago after hitting a plateau in trimming weight. Over the first 1.5 weeks or so, I lost 2 lbs. All I've really given up is eating breakfast, as I've already watched what I eat on the diet I was doing (I might eat slightly more for lunch now). Exercising the same amount as before. I only drink black coffee, and about the same amount you do. I'm going to continue, mostly because I never liked eating breakfast and only forced myself to do so because I thought it was "right."

thanks for the feedback.
Ya, to me the scale is the ultimate answer to my success, but I do notice some good results in the mirror, but I know it will take me longer to get results since I already lost most of mt fat years ago. Just trying to shed off those last few lbs. In my mind, the first 10# are the easiest and the last 10 are the hardest!

I do that same in regards to weighing. Take my morning leak at 5am and hope in the scale. It's how I hold myself accountable. If I cheated too bad the day before, then the numbers won't lie and I try to motivate myself more by pushing myself harder at the gym.

Anything besides water activates your digestive enzymes so if you take anything else in than you are out of fasting. Some "plans" say black coffee is okay but with true fasting anything besides water is a no no. Your enzymes have a 12 hour window so that is the first area to stay within. In other words you are not fasting, just starving yourself.

Your ratios seem off as well, probably one reason you are so hungry. I have no idea of your muscle weight but a starting point would be closer to 40% fat, 30% protein, 30% carbs. I can miss a meal or do a 24 hour fast with no issues eating a diet based on fat and protein. Do I get hungry? A bit but no cravings. Remember humans can go for 30+ days without eating so suck it up, eating more fat will help your cravings.

A lot of people do not count calories when fasting, just focus on getting good food and going by hunger.

my ratios are 40%-C, 40%-P, 20%-F.

Why would I want to eat more fat if I'm wanting to still try to keep my protein high? Trying to still maintain muscle mass while eating in a deficit overall calories.

My protein count of 165g is 0.75g per 1# of my weight? Guess I'm just a creature of habit. When I lift heaver and try to bulk up in the winter i aim for 1-1.5g per 1# for protein. Then when trying to trim down, I am for 0.75g per #.

What kind of workouts do you IF people do?

Most people start IF/Leangains at 40% P, 30% C, 30% F. I'm still summer cutting; eating -20/0 and carb cycling. My rest days are 40% P, 15% C, 45% F and training days are 32% P, 50% C, 18% F. P is always 1g/# - cutting or recomp. I'm the worst at actually hitting macros and mostly ballpark things with MFP. Overall, CICO is king. I try to eat clean and weigh-in every morning w/ a mirror test. Adjust macro adherence and gym effort accordingly.

I'm also in the camp that coffee and creamer won't break your fast. Just an opinion, but I have an espresso and cappuccino every morning. Don't work out until lunch and take BCAAs before.

I've done P.H.U.L for a few years. Leangains protocol is RPT. I just can't get behind the low volume. I throw in 10 min. of HIIT after upper workouts and 30-60 min. of LIIT on rest days.

IF/IIFYM is stupid simple and I think sustainable forever. I'm not qualified to debate the physiological benefits of fasting. But planning and tracking only two meals a day and not fretting a donut makes life enjoyable.

Workouts on IF do not change

P.U.T.U said:

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Workouts on IF do not change

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I guess what I'm getting at is how can you lift weights while fasting? When I wasn't eating a proper afternoon snack before hitting the weights after work I would get dizzy at the gym. Then again, I was pushing pretty hard. I can't imagine trying to do the same workout while not having eating anything for 8-12 hours or more.

I guess I just don't totally grasp the concept.

Your body has around 2000 calories of glucose stored for immediate energy and around 75,000 available to use.

Your body will burn more carbs compared to on a higher fat diet your body will tend to use what it already has stored since it does not turn to glucose right away. That is why you should eat more fat instead of carbs.

I have said it before in past, do a 24 hour fast. If you feel like you are dying your diet sucks. Yes you will get hungry at first but after that it is not bad at all.

It's not about getting hungry. It's about getting lightheaded and dizzy. Big difference.

one thing I have notice about doing IF is that a cheat meal does not hurt my body like it used to. Last night I ate 4 slices of pizza (it was my anniversary) and I woke up and my stomach felt so much flatter than in the past when I would do something like that. Because I fit it in my window.

Not an expert by any means but I do IF but my macros are completely different. If you're trying to lose weight which usually means fat... then it sounds like you're carbs are wayyy too high. You're workouts are using your stored carbs and not burning fat. IMO cal deficit alone is a long process, not as immediate as you're making it sound with that many carbs.

I do IF. Started off at 180 lbs 21% BF, now I'm, 163-165 17% BF (BF% was measured by a DEXA scan) I lost 12 lbs within 2 weeks doing IF at 1400 cal/day but my carbs were limited to around 10-15%. Sure, workouts suffered a bit but not as much as I thought they would. The biggest difference was that I felt weak but I still put up plenty of weight. I'm now at 1800 cals/day and the workouts are have improved dramatically and I'm improving all around. My goal is to get to 10-12% BF and then at that time I'll start adding more carbs into my diet.

Again, not an expert but I don't see how your body will lose the weight/fat on the amount of carbs you're taking in. Your workouts are burning your stored carbs and unless you weigh 250 + lbs I don't see how your cal intake alone with that many carbs will produce the results you're wanting.

Junkhead said:

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P.U.T.U said:

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Workouts on IF do not change

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I guess what I'm getting at is how can you lift weights while fasting? When I wasn't eating a proper afternoon snack before hitting the weights after work I would get dizzy at the gym. Then again, I was pushing pretty hard. I can't imagine trying to do the same workout while not having eating anything for 8-12 hours or more.

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I strength train in the mornings 3 days / week and cardio 2 of the days. In the evenings I do crossfit. Morning strength felt A LOT better when I started 1800 cals/day.

Check your potassium and magnesium levels too. I supplement potassium chloride powder to help out with this. It's helped.

I take a bunch of supplements/vitamins under the direction of my PCP. I guess I will ask him what he thinks of IF next time I see him.

emando2000 said:

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Not an expert by any means but I do IF but my macros are completely different. If you're trying to lose weight which usually means fat... then it sounds like you're carbs are wayyy too high. You're workouts are using your stored carbs and not burning fat. IMO cal deficit alone is a long process, not as immediate as you're making it sound with that many carbs.

I do IF. Started off at 180 lbs 21% BF, now I'm, 163-165 17% BF (BF% was measured by a DEXA scan) I lost 12 lbs within 2 weeks doing IF at 1400 cal/day but my carbs were limited to around 10-15%. Sure, workouts suffered a bit but not as much as I thought they would. The biggest difference was that I felt weak but I still put up plenty of weight. I'm now at 1800 cals/day and the workouts are have improved dramatically and I'm improving all around. My goal is to get to 10-12% BF and then at that time I'll start adding more carbs into my diet.

Again, not an expert but I don't see how your body will lose the weight/fat on the amount of carbs you're taking in. Your workouts are burning your stored carbs and unless you weigh 250 + lbs I don't see how your cal intake alone with that many carbs will produce the results you're wanting.

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CICO is #1 in fat loss. You can aid that agenda with different macro splits. But at the end of the day, it's still net calorie deficit = fat loss.

I take the Leangains approach and cycle carbs/fats. It works. Weight creeps down and lifts maintain or slightly increase. Mirror test checks out and I'm dropping more fat than muscle. And life is just better when I get to eat 237g of carbs four days a week. Come recomp season that will jump up to 360g!

When I first started IF years ago I didn't really notice much difference in on the scale for the first 3 weeks (although I may have been recomping a bit), and then all of a sudden I dropped 5 pounds. Then the weight loss was a bit more steady.

My opinions:

I have nothing but water when fasting. But if you need coffee, and if you're going to add creamer to your coffee, try using pure heavy cream, or even butter/coconut oil. The thing that really intereferes with the effects of fasting is anything that causes insulin to spike. Fat has the lowest insulin peak out of protein/carbs/fat.

I workout the same when fasted as I do when not. In fact I feel better fasted. If you're getting light headed, you're probably on a very high carb diet to where your blood sugar is always high and your brain is always happy. When you're fasted, it takes a little while for your body to ramp up the metabolic machinery needed to easily free up stored sugar/fat, and for your brain to adjust to a more stable/lower blood sugar. If you think you need to "fuel up" before a workout, and then you workout without, that COULD explain your light headedness. And actually, your body releases adrenaline and growth hormone when fasted, your workouts really shouldn't suffer.


Calories in vs calories out, at the end of the day is probably all that matters. HOWEVER, what you eat and how/when you eat will affect the calories out part. When you're eating a caloric deficit, for example, you don't produce as much thyroid hormone, which means your metabolism slumps. When you eat an extra 2000 calories one day, you're not going to store a 1/2 pound of fat, because your body adjusts, hormones change, and how your body spends its energy changes.

A big advantage of IF is that you've got a low insulin state coupled with high cortisol, adrenaline, and growth hormone. All this together means that enzymes that free up and burn fat are upregulated, and enzymes that store fat are downregulated. All this helps minimize muscle loss. But I agree that the biggest advantage is it helps with your calorie balance.

Unless your PCP has an interest in sports nutrition, they likely aren't the person to talk to about special diets.

emando2000 said:

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Not an expert by any means but I do IF but my macros are completely different. If you're trying to lose weight which usually means fat... then it sounds like you're carbs are wayyy too high.

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Emando-yes, I'm trying to lose weight/fat. With a BMR of 2,365 and a TDEE of 2,600-2,800 5 days a week, one would think that my 40% carb level would be within range. I'll try dropping it and increase my fat% like PUTO suggested.

My daily calorie intake for the past 4-5 days is 1,650. So 715 calories below my BMR and roughly 1,050 cal below my TDEE (5 days a week). That SHOULD bring my weekly calorie deficit to 6,680 calories, or 1.91#. Again, I'm not wanting to lose 2# per week, but more of a gradual 1#/week weight lose would be fine. Today I was at 216# (down 2# from starting). I plan to keep at it and see how this turns out. I always have a hard time getting below 215#, so we will see how it goes! Thanks again for the feedback and comments!

P.U.T.U said:

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Your ratios seem off as well, probably one reason you are so hungry. I have no idea of your muscle weight but a starting point would be closer to 40% fat, 30% protein, 30% carbs.

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I'll try this out and see how things go. I appreciate your continued feedback and helping a newbie at this!

And because use asked (or at least mentioned it), here are my "official" numbers from my Body Analytics test last fall:

Weight - 211.9
RMR - 2,365
Lean # - 71.2
Fat # - 25
Water # - 115.7
Body Fat % - 11.8%

**Disclaimer** - I dropped down to 211.9# in probably an "unhealthy" fashion. I was cutting pretty hard the week of this test knowing that I wanted to be sub 215#. I was eating around 1200-1400 cal for 5-7 days beforehand. I'd like to get to 200-210 possibly, but space it out in a healthier fashion!

haha woops. Sorry P.U.T.U
I am dyslexic, does that count?!?!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/skipping-breakfast-may-double-risk-hard-arteries-study-190455410.html

Quote:

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People who skip breakfast or eat poorly to start the day are twice as likely to develop hardened arteries, which can lead to deadly heart disease, researchers said Monday.

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AgLiving06 said:

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https://www.yahoo.com/news/skipping-breakfast-may-double-risk-hard-arteries-study-190455410.html

Quote:

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People who skip breakfast or eat poorly to start the day are twice as likely to develop hardened arteries, which can lead to deadly heart disease, researchers said Monday.

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I saw this this morning.

I don't think this study really says anything about people who do intermittent fasting. There is a difference between skipping breakfast, and intermittent fasting. If I skip breakfast, it doesn't mean I'm not going to load up on a sugar filled coffee from star bucks. Or going to snack on donuts that someone brought into the office before I eat a real meal.

I haven't seen the actual study methods, however. Or who funded it (the breakfast industry, perhaps?).

Edit: not the whole article, but doesn't appear they accounted for quality of diet: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109717393178

I'd like to weigh in for those people reading this thread who are put off trying IF by the percentages and measurements and calorie counts.

Its not necessarily that much work. I've been doing 20:4 since May 1st. In that 4 hour window I eat whatever the hell I want. I usually have at least 1 day a week without IF. And, I eat whatever the hell I want on that day, too.

I've seen significant changes in my waistline and overall body fat. I dropped from a near 38 waist to a near 34 waist in the first 5 weeks. Last week my neighbor asked my wife if I've been working out (no). Now, I'm generally just maintaining. If my fitbit says I walked 10,000 steps, I maintain or drop weight that day. If not, I maintain or gain less than a pound.

The biggest benefit has been in afternoon work focus. My ADHD problems are easier to manage without lunch.

At this point, I can't see ever going back to a regular eating schedule. It's a lifesytle, not a religion, so off days don't bother me too much. It is tough to do on gameday weekends. Overall, a terrific choice.

Eating 1400 cal/day with 10% carbs, losing weight has nothing to do with IF...

Hard to imagine fasting for 20 hours and being able to run for an hour or cycle for 2.

claym711 said:

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Eating 1400 cal/day with 10% carbs, losing weight has nothing to do with IF...

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It does if IF is how you lose weight. Just a different route to get to a calorie deficit. Don't think anyone claims it's the only way.

Saw this thread get bumped!
Can't recall what my starting weight was when I began IF. I think in the 218-220 range.

I successfully got down to my goal weight of 210. Hovered there for a week or two. Then traveled a bit for work and didn't follow my routine as closely and now I'm back to 214-215. Not worried about it. Hope to hit the gym hard this week and get back on track.

I'm impressed with what IF did for me and I'm a believer now.

bam02 said:

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claym711 said:

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Hard to imagine fasting for 20 hours and being able to run for an hour or cycle for 2.

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Lots of stuff is hard to imagine when you have no clue what you're talking about.

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Ya? You're at peak physical performance fasted 20 hours? Tell me more wise sage.