You're right; their sales have been pretty flat:
2014 118,493
2015 118,880
2016 115,489
2017 116,285
2018 118,258

Not sure why their tech still seems lacking.

TRIDENT said:

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New RAM interior.

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Is it bad that I see this and instantly think of all the electronic systems that can fail? I mean, it looks really nice, I just don't trust anything in there to consistently/reliably work.

saltydog13 said:

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How is ford out if you want the v8 feel? They have the 5.0 v8 and the crew cab has a ton of room

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Gen 3 Coyote (18+) is not reliable. They dumped the steel cylinder liners in favor of a spray on coating and are replacing motors with less than 10K miles left and right.

The 5.0L is also a Mustang motor at heart and makes most of it's power in the upper rpm range. I would get a different power plant if I was doing a lot of towing.

Coming from the owner of a '16 5.0L F150.

Yeah I had a 2012 5.0 with starting issues that were never resolved. Just throwing it out to the OP that it's a v8 option.

Tradesman trim for the win to have as little electrical failure points as possible. You can still get them with the backup camera in the rear view mirror

Dead yet?

I went and looked at both the new ram and the new GMC. The ram Interior looks much better in pictures than real life and the GMC looks much better in person than pictures. It was strange, to the point where I thought the two had no clear winner on which I liked better. The ram I looked at was a Laramie with the smaller screen I should add.

I have a Silverado in the new crew cab body style. It has A LOT of room in the back. Both of my young boys easily fit in their car seats and have lots of room to spare. That's something GM fixed in the redesign.

The AT4 is awesome, btw.

'03ag said:

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The issue is not the exterior. The current Tundra looks great. IMO Ford and Chevy have both gone off the rails with their styling.

The problem is the Tundra is horribly outdated inside. You may not care but current shoppers care. And even if they don't, they still see that Ford and Chevy are both offering a lot more inside.

And as someone else said, most truck buyers aren't really shopping for "truck" utility. Most of their beds never see anything except yeti coolers and their kids bat bags.

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I've been looking at Tundras for several months -- every year from about 2010 to the current models (can't decide IF I want one at all; if I want a newer one as a DD; if I want an older one and keep my car...). Can you give me some examples of what you mean by "horribly outdated?" Compared to what? The interior feature set seems to me to be somewhat similar to what Ford has, depending on model and package. I would agree that the more basic lines (or whatever you call them) are a bit on the plain side but when you get to the limited, it seems to have just about everything I would need or want in a truck and more than I'd want (e.g. sunroof). If you're talking head units, well, that can be a few hundred dollar fix and the 2013 and 2014 Toyotas I had have had at the very least decent head units. Better than my 2013 Nissan. Way better than the crappy Ford models from that same era (may have been changed since).

If you want to talk styling, the great thing about the Tundras is that you can have the double cab, a VERY functional back seat (unlike the Ford supercab) with the long bed and the best of both worlds -- room in the seat and a big bed and still fit in the garage. Parks easier as well.

So, if you think the Tundra still looks cool from the outside, then what is the problem with the styling? I think Ford guys like to bash the Tundra and others just play along because they haven't really checked it out closely.

I've had my 2018 Tundra for about a year and a half. I came from a 2012 Ford F-150 Lariat. I know it's 6 years newer but there's really no comparison. My V8 F-150 was sluggish and didn't pull very well. Also...it wasn't very reliable.

The powertrain was designed about 15 years ago and the fuel economy is horrible. They do make good low rpm torque though.

91AggieLawyer said:

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'03ag said:

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The issue is not the exterior. The current Tundra looks great. IMO Ford and Chevy have both gone off the rails with their styling.

The problem is the Tundra is horribly outdated inside. You may not care but current shoppers care. And even if they don't, they still see that Ford and Chevy are both offering a lot more inside.

And as someone else said, most truck buyers aren't really shopping for "truck" utility. Most of their beds never see anything except yeti coolers and their kids bat bags.

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I've been looking at Tundras for several months -- every year from about 2010 to the current models (can't decide IF I want one at all; if I want a newer one as a DD; if I want an older one and keep my car...). Can you give me some examples of what you mean by "horribly outdated?" Compared to what? The interior feature set seems to me to be somewhat similar to what Ford has, depending on model and package. I would agree that the more basic lines (or whatever you call them) are a bit on the plain side but when you get to the limited, it seems to have just about everything I would need or want in a truck and more than I'd want (e.g. sunroof). If you're talking head units, well, that can be a few hundred dollar fix and the 2013 and 2014 Toyotas I had have had at the very least decent head units. Better than my 2013 Nissan. Way better than the crappy Ford models from that same era (may have been changed since).

If you want to talk styling, the great thing about the Tundras is that you can have the double cab, a VERY functional back seat (unlike the Ford supercab) with the long bed and the best of both worlds -- room in the seat and a big bed and still fit in the garage. Parks easier as well.

So, if you think the Tundra still looks cool from the outside, then what is the problem with the styling? I think Ford guys like to bash the Tundra and others just play along because they haven't really checked it out closely.

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Outdated means it doesn't look like gulfstream cockpit. It means there is no push button start, apple car play, remote start, etc.but that's never been what Toyota strives for. If you are looking for a truck that has all the bells and whistles, gets 20+mpg and has top in class payload capacity then the tundra is not for you. If you are looking at a truck that is functional and will last forever with basic maint/oil changes then the tundra is worth considering. I had a 2015 f150 3.5 boost and it had more tech (minus the safety sense) than my 2018 tundra but it was in the shop over 10 times in the first 35k. It had payload capacity of 1835 and drove almost like a fast car. MPG was 16.5 vs 14.5 on my tundra (live west of Austin in hills and stoplights on 290). The tundra drives like a big brut beast compared to the ford and it feels incredibly solid. Its plenty fast when u hit tow/haul mode but nothing like the 3.5 was. I like both trucks but after my issues with the ford I opted for reliability and something that will last. Very pleased with my decision so far.

A yeti cooler is about all you can carry in the bed of a Tundra anyways

I'm not a ford guy at all, in fact they'd probably be last on my list out of these 4. But I'm not really truck guy either.

It's mostly aesthetic. It looks like it's from another decade because it mostly is. Everyone else has had at least one major redesign since the current Tundra came out. Including a lot of other Toyota models. A coworker has a 2019 F150 Platinum and we've taken it to lunch several times. It looks and feels a lot nicer inside. It looks like Tundra is finally getting android auto next year. They're the last to do so. I haven't price shopped them in several months but I recall things like cooled seats being much harder/expensive to get on the Tundra, but could be wrong. The Ram Laramie gets you all of that in a much nicer looking(subjective of course) package, and for quite a bit less.

And personally I'm not buying a newish car and putting an aftermarket head unit in it ever. I hate messing with the interior look. So I'm going to prioritize how the OE head unit functions. I dont care for Toyota's interface buts that's also pretty subjective. Android auto will solve that problem though, as it works better than anyone's OE unit I've seen.

I'm of the opinion that Ford and Chevy have gone off the rails with their exteriors. I think that's why Ram has been able to take market share with a more conservative design and a fresh interior. I think Toyota could do the same with only subtle changes to the exterior.

'03ag said:

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I'm not a ford guy at all, in fact they'd probably be last on my list out of these 4. But I'm not really truck guy either.

It's mostly aesthetic. It looks like it's from another decade because it mostly is. Everyone else has had at least one major redesign since the current Tundra came out. Including a lot of other Toyota models. A coworker has a 2019 F150 Platinum and we've taken it to lunch several times. It looks and feels a lot nicer inside. It looks like Tundra is finally getting android auto next year. They're the last to do so. I haven't price shopped them in several months but I recall things like cooled seats being much harder/expensive to get on the Tundra, but could be wrong. The Ram Laramie gets you all of that in a much nicer looking(subjective of course) package, and for quite a bit less.

And personally I'm not buying a newish car and putting an aftermarket head unit in it ever. I hate messing with the interior look. So I'm going to prioritize how the OE head unit functions. I dont care for Toyota's interface buts that's also pretty subjective. Android auto will solve that problem though, as it works better than anyone's OE unit I've seen.

I'm of the opinion that Ford and Chevy have gone off the rails with their exteriors. I think that's why Ram has been able to take market share with a more conservative design and a fresh interior. I think Toyota could do the same with only subtle changes to the exterior.

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There will be an all new tundra in the next few years. New powertrain, interior, exterior, etc. so wait for that if you need to be on par with the big 3. I believe RAM is last in quality and has the most defects per hundred vehicles then the other three so while it might look nice it might also be in the shop. The other Toyota models such as the camry and RAV are major sellers for Toyota and will get more focus thus more periodic redesigns. The tundra sells the same amount every year and does not appear to be a major focus for Toyota. The 4 runner interior is rather basic as well depending on trim, rides rough, gets poor mpg compared to competition yet people keep buying them. You aren't going to see them rush products to the market just because everybody else does. Their goal is to make a reliable quality product and you can't do that making major changes every other year.

aggieforester05 said:

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The powertrain was designed about 15 years ago and the fuel economy is horrible. They do make good low rpm torque though.

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This isn't a discussion about the powertrain and gas mileage. It is about Toyota styling and interior design. You want to complain about that, its fine but that isn't relevant to anything I posted or responded to.

Tundra has push button start, at least on the limited. Not sure about remote start. As I stated, electronics are hit or miss with all brands. There's USB, power seats, steering wheel controls, decent enough head units, etc. Saying it is "horribly" anything is just inaccurate. It may not be what YOU want (or someone else) and that's fine. Get a Ford, Dodge, Chevy, whatever. But my point is that this argument that the Tundra styling not having been updated as a criticism is just absurd.

No one has to explain their tastes; it works for you, or it doesn't. If having Android whatever is more important to you than other things, then by all means, get the truck that satisfies that need. But don't try to justify that by saying the other truck is objectively lacking when whatever is missing or what isn't "updated" can be overlooked by many/most truck buyers.

Toyota's truck sales being 1/5 to 1/8th of other brands either hasn't gotten their attention enough to change or they've decided to play with what they've got. You make the choice as to what you want to do with that.

Push button in 2020 models and remote start from your phone with the new entune 3.0 as wel as android auto and CarPlay

Many what a weird discussion. Of course tastes are subjective. No one has claimed otherwise. People are just stating what they do and don't like about the big 4. Of course those will be influenced by their buying priorities.

It is objectively true that Toyota has not made much effort to update their styling. There's nothing inaccurate about that and I'm sure Toyota would tell you as much. They'd probably tell you they dont care too.

Go look at the two pics posted in this thread. Go look at every other vehicle made today. Whether or not the styling is to yours, or my, or anyone else's taste is 100% irrelevant. It is old and out of date.

The notion that most truck buyers don't care is objectively false though. Otherwise the most unreliable manufacturer in the segment wouldn't have picked up a huge chunk of market share in the last year.

Im afraid the last generation v8 Raptor, the 2008-2014 6.2 GM trucks, and the 2016 and earlier duramax's may be last real trucks that will ever be made. probably some of the hemi dodge's too.

whatever sick **** allowed software idiots to run car companies has destroyed the truck industry. They're all garbage now. mechanically pretty good but - ruined by the electronics.

and whatever democratic families scammed us into DEF fluid bull**** for their own profit need to be hung from a tree till their rotting bodies fall off their heads. Which severed worthless heads should then be soaked in DEF fluid and put on a shelf in the capitol building as a lesson to future would-be corrupt communist leftist environmental *******s that want to **** up our lives.

my 2017 duramax is absolute garbage, as was my 2015 6.2 GMC 1500.

in the LP5, DEF, delicate sensor placement only a ***** ass yuppie could dream up, ****ty transmission software (who the hell ever heard of allisons cratering themselves prior to the new generation bull**** LP5 setup?), you name it. Garbage.

My wife's 2016? Still forced to have the severe design defect of DEF bull*****.. but at least the truck tends to actually move on its own power.

ford's idiotic idea of a turbo 6, though a good motor for a minivan or something, is totally mission deficient for a truck that is actually used as a truck. and a 5 liter v8 in a full size truck? that's a severe design defect as well.

the dodge may actually be the best 1500 left with the hemi.

the dodge and ford 2500's are hampered by DEF, and are ridiculously non-nimble for a small truck... just clunky old chassis. I dont have personal experience long term with them. Both good diesels though, mechanically, but i assume the electronics and DEF bull**** are just as bad as the GM.

I dont have long term experience with yotas either, but they used to be notorious for defective engines and really poor quality wiring harnesses. the chassis are quite good though for a light duty semi off road capable mix wagon. they also dont have brakes.

actually, the last factory truck that had brakes even close to acceptable were the 1999-2004 HD GM trucks.

my 97 f250 went 7000 miles on front pads, 12-15000 on rotors.
my 2000 silverado HD went 182000 miles on pads and rotors.
my 2005 hemi went about 30000 miles on pads and 50000 rotors, but they were gone by the time i sold it
my 2008 6.2 GMC went about 15000 miles on pads, 30000 on rotors
my 2011 the same
my 2011 raptor went through pads every 10000, rotors 15-20000
that 2015 GMC 6.2 was such a horrible piece of **** i sold it after the first brake pad change at about 8000 miles.
my 2017 duramax goes through pads about 18000 miles, rotors 25000

all had the best brake options you could buy on that chassis that year.

I have found that transmissions tend to tie really closely to brake longevity, not sure why. One big difference though is a GM 6l80e is about $2200, where the ford equivalent 6 speed was over $6500 to replace.
not sure about dodge.



Bottom line, to wrap up my rant.... because no one makes an even remotely decent truck, I have built my own truck, and it is ten times the truck that my 2017 Duramax is so far. I've done just about everything now except a motor swap coming. But the brakes, trans, wiring, etc., are already done and i love it. details to come.

no key fob bull***** no onstar. no black box. no ****ty brakes. no ****ty transmissions. no DEF. no electronic bull***** just a stout mofo with tremendous HP and torque, (750/760 flywheel at 5400 rpm) brakes that will last the life of the truck, 8 speed overdrive, great AC, great stereo, no modules except stand alone ECM and TCM and the old style factory ECBM with no bull**** links to other modules. simple. reliable. easy to work on. cheap to replace parts. durable. just better.

hell, i may start a company to duplicate it because modern trucks absolutely suck.

I will say I feel your pain. My 2017 GMC 2500 was complete garbage, in the shop 7 time in less than 2 years all for sensor issues. I finally had enough and traded it in on a 19 F250, which I will say I've been pleasantly surprised by.

What I've gathered from this thread: all trucks suck.

Edit: Wait a minute, no one complained about Nissan. Let's all go buy Titans!

i wanna see this amazing self built truck

cbr said:

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.
My wife's 2016? Still forced to have the severe design defect of DEF bull*****.. but at least the truck tends to actually move on its own power.

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You need to delete that **** yo. Love my 2016 now.

gwellis said:

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Maximus_Meridius said:

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TRIDENT said:

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New RAM interior.

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Is it bad that I see this and instantly think of all the electronic systems that can fail? I mean, it looks really nice, I just don't trust anything in there to consistently/reliably work.

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I have a buddy in Rocksprings who's F150 KR won't let you change the time on the clock and the radio changes randomly. The windows won't always roll back up from time to time without double clicking and then holding the buttons. He just laughs at it.

All the manufacturers have issues with something or the other from time to time. Hell my F350 sunroof broke on about the 5th opening. Took it in, and they said, "Did it Pop, when you started to open it?" I said Yeah! guy then says, yeah they do that. The replacement parts wont do that. That was a $1300 fix. My bobcat guy had his sunroof do the same thing a month later on his F350. He traded his and got a RAM 3500. I'll probably go back to RAM on the next truck too.

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Oh, I'm right with you, man. I am very well aware that all trucks from all manufacturers have issues to one degree or another. I was more commenting on how everyone was saying that's a nice looking interior, and all I could see was electronic induced headaches.

What about the tundra and 5.7 v8?

saltydog13 said:

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What about the tundra and 5.7 v8?

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Not an expert on that model. Not enough of a fan of the truck overall to consider it. Iirc they make roughly equivalent power. When i first looked at them the wiring harness was such poor quality i never looked again

Corps_Ag12 said:

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cbr said:

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My wife's 2016? Still forced to have the severe design defect of DEF bull*****.. but at least the truck tends to actually move on its own power.

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You need to delete that **** yo. Love my 2016 now.

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I will. Just warranty and kommisar concerns.

ElephantRider said:

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sts7049 said:

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i wanna see this amazing self built truck

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Its a little smaller. Lol. Figure out how to post pics and i will. I dont have or particularly like photo hosting cites.