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Prop A

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riverrataggie
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9:43p, 10/25/22
AG
What's the consensus on this? Yes/No?

It seems face value this is being funded by tourist tax through hotels, etc but Dallas is pretty corrupt. Spinners on school buses, etc in hidden language? Typically gunsht on these as taxes are high enough. They need to figure out how to be more efficient.
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harge57
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8:27a, 10/26/22
AG
I will never support a new tax.
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powerbelly
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9:26a, 10/26/22
AG
Voted no. I do not like making hotel visitors pay for things they aren't going to benefit from.
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Kellso
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10:49a, 10/26/22
Vote Yes.

I don't see why anyone would vote no.
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riverrataggie
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In reply to Kellso • 11:48a, 10/26/22
AG
Kellso said:
Vote Yes.

I don't see why anyone would vote no.


Well because in previous props they have flat out lied that voting yes wouldn't raise taxes. I voted no in those but they still passed.
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Coates
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In reply to powerbelly • 1:01p, 10/26/22
powerbelly said:
Voted no. I do not like making hotel visitors pay for things they aren't going to benefit from.


I'm voting no because dallas is full of lying politicians like everywhere else, but this is part of traveling. Every major city does this since the large majority of travelers are business.
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riverrataggie
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In reply to Coates • 1:10p, 10/26/22
AG
Coates said:
powerbelly said:
Voted no. I do not like making hotel visitors pay for things they aren't going to benefit from.


I'm voting no because dallas is full of lying politicians like everywhere else, but this is part of traveling. Every major city does this since the large majority of travelers are business.


I'm more concerned with statements such as, 'if travel and tourism tax does not meet anticipated levels, then city of Dallas will levy the remaining allocation to be paid by the Riverrataggie household'.

Reason why this concerns me is when I glanced through it they will start said projects before taxes are collected. So what if the taxes aren't what you forecasted? Then what?
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powerbelly
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In reply to Coates • 1:19p, 10/26/22
AG
Coates said:
powerbelly said:
Voted no. I do not like making hotel visitors pay for things they aren't going to benefit from.


I'm voting no because dallas is full of lying politicians like everywhere else, but this is part of traveling. Every major city does this since the large majority of travelers are business.
Our hotel tax is already 13%. I don't want the lying politicians making local hotels more expensive.
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Kellso
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In reply to riverrataggie • 5:28p, 10/26/22
riverrataggie said:
Kellso said:
Vote Yes.

I don't see why anyone would vote no.


Well because in previous props they have flat out lied that voting yes wouldn't raise taxes. I voted no in those but they still passed.
Can you give some examples.......

I haven't seen why anyone would vote NO on this issue unless they secretly want the city to turn into Detroit.

Years ago...I remember there was this dumazz women that lived in Lewisville that was always trying to get city of Dallas residents to vote NO on its bond issues. Her biggest issue (in the late 90's) was that she didn't want the American Airlines Arena and Victory Park to get built off the hotel taxpayers.

Someone had to stick up for those visitors to Dallas, and sticking business travelers with higher hotel costs would be unfair.

Its turns out that deep down she really wanted the Mavs brass to build the Mavs and Stars new arena in Lewisville.
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riverrataggie
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In reply to Kellso • 7:35p, 10/26/22
AG
Kellso said:
riverrataggie said:
Kellso said:
Vote Yes.

I don't see why anyone would vote no.


Well because in previous props they have flat out lied that voting yes wouldn't raise taxes. I voted no in those but they still passed.
Can you give some examples.......

I haven't seen why anyone would vote NO on this issue unless they secretly want the city to turn into Detroit.

Years ago...I remember there was this dumazz women that lived in Lewisville that was always trying to get city of Dallas residents to vote NO on its bond issues. Her biggest issue (in the late 90's) was that she didn't want the American Airlines Arena and Victory Park to get built off the hotel taxpayers.

Someone had to stick up for those visitors to Dallas, and sticking business travelers with higher hotel costs would be unfair.

Its turns out that deep down she really wanted the Mavs brass to build the Mavs and Stars new arena in Lewisville.


It was this… https://www.dallasisd.org/domain/21963

They said this wouldn't increase taxes. That was a lie.
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Kellso
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In reply to riverrataggie • 8:34p, 10/26/22
riverrataggie said:
Kellso said:
riverrataggie said:
Kellso said:
Vote Yes.

I don't see why anyone would vote no.


Well because in previous props they have flat out lied that voting yes wouldn't raise taxes. I voted no in those but they still passed.
Can you give some examples.......

I haven't seen why anyone would vote NO on this issue unless they secretly want the city to turn into Detroit.

Years ago...I remember there was this dumazz women that lived in Lewisville that was always trying to get city of Dallas residents to vote NO on its bond issues. Her biggest issue (in the late 90's) was that she didn't want the American Airlines Arena and Victory Park to get built off the hotel taxpayers.

Someone had to stick up for those visitors to Dallas, and sticking business travelers with higher hotel costs would be unfair.

Its turns out that deep down she really wanted the Mavs brass to build the Mavs and Stars new arena in Lewisville.


It was this… https://www.dallasisd.org/domain/21963

They said this wouldn't increase taxes. That was a lie.
Where did your taxes increase?

Even if they did...who else is supposed to pay for improved school facilities, police, fire and road maintenance?

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double aught
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9:08p, 10/27/22
AG
It seems kind of outrageous that the city wants to build an entirely new convention center. Whenever they wanted money for a hotel ten or so years ago, they said that was what the convention center needed to be successful. Well, they got their hotel, so what happened?

I'm no convention center expert, but I've walked through the place plenty. Seems pretty impressive to me. City council says they've missed out on 900+ conventions due to the facility. I have a hard time believing that. Most likely they've missed out on conventions because Dallas is not Las Vegas or Los Angeles or New Orleans or Honolulu. No new convention center will change that. "Well, it was 102 in Dallas. There wasn't s*** to do cuz we were stuck indoors. But man that plumbing at the convention center kicked ass! Thank God we weren't in San Diego. I hear their plumbing backs up all the time!"

And are these things even that important to a city's economy? I've heard conflicting views. Seems like a lot of money to spend on something that's debatable. But hey, it's not their money.
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Kellso
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In reply to double aught • 7:22a, 10/28/22
double aught said:
It seems kind of outrageous that the city wants to build an entirely new convention center. Whenever they wanted money for a hotel ten or so years ago, they said that was what the convention center needed to be successful. Well, they got their hotel, so what happened?

I'm no convention center expert, but I've walked through the place plenty. Seems pretty impressive to me. City council says they've missed out on 900+ conventions due to the facility. I have a hard time believing that. Most likely they've missed out on conventions because Dallas is not Las Vegas or Los Angeles or New Orleans or Honolulu. No new convention center will change that. "Well, it was 102 in Dallas. There wasn't s*** to do cuz we were stuck indoors. But man that plumbing at the convention center kicked ass! Thank God we weren't in San Diego. I hear their plumbing backs up all the time!"

And are these things even that important to a city's economy? I've heard conflicting views. Seems like a lot of money to spend on something that's debatable. But hey, it's not their money.
"
I'm no convention center expert,"


This was obvious. Everything else you said was null and void after your first sentence.

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double aught
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In reply to Kellso • 9:12a, 10/28/22
AG
Thanks for the contribution.
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Kellso
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In reply to double aught • 12:41p, 10/28/22
double aught said:
Thanks for the contribution.
I deserved that. I didn't have time this morning to give a real detailed response to your post.

Quote:
It seems kind of outrageous that the city wants to build an entirely new convention center. [Not really. In major cities things are constantly in need of repair. Whether it be roads, stadiums, schools, convention centers...etc]Whenever they wanted money for a hotel ten or so years ago, they said that was what the convention center needed to be successful. Well, they got their hotel, so what happened? [The hotel has been a Godsend for the Dallas Convention Center, but the DCC is still a pretty half ass facility. Most major convention centers have an attached hotel. Dallas didn't get one until about 10 years ago. With the completion of the Omni this now means that the city of Dallas has four hotels with over 1K rooms. This means that theoretically Dallas can host its own Super Bowl without needing the Gaylord in Grapevine to complete its Super Bowl Bid. The plans for the new Convention Center connect the facility to the Cedars neighborhood south of downtown. You want entertainment options for those visitors to be walkable. Right now its not]

I'm no convention center expert, but I've walked through the place plenty. Seems pretty impressive to me. [Refer back to your first sentence about not being a convention center expert]. City council says they've missed out on 900+ conventions due to the facility. I have a hard time believing that. Most likely they've missed out on conventions because Dallas is not Las Vegas or Los Angeles or New Orleans or Honolulu. [Is there a walkable entertainment and restaurant district within walking distance of the Dallas Convention Center?] No new convention center will change that. [This is really forward thinking. Lets just keep things the way they are, and not improve the city. Why the hell does Texas A&M ever upgrade its stadium or facilities. The old stuff works fine right? No need to ever modernize or update a facility] "Well, it was 102 in Dallas. There wasn't s*** to do cuz we were stuck indoors. But man that plumbing at the convention center kicked ass! Thank God we weren't in San Diego. I hear their plumbing backs up all the time!"

And are these things even that important to a city's economy? [One of the best ways to grow your cities tax base to pay for things like police pensions, fire fighters, road repair, parks...etc is to get tax revenue from people that don't live in your city. Conventions bring visitors to your city. Those visitors spend money in local hotels, bars, malls, restaurants, gentleman clubs...you name it. Dallas will never be located near an ocean, or a nice beach....so it has to compensate in other ways. One of the ways is to make sure that your city is appealing enough so that people want to come back and spend their hard earned money] I've heard conflicting views. Seems like a lot of money to spend on something that's debatable. [What exactly is a lot of money?? The increase in tax hits visitors to Dallas. Dallas is not New Orleans or Vegas. Dallas is a business oriented city where a majority of the visitors are most likely business travelers.
Business travelers don't care about added hotel tax because in most cases their company lets them expense the hotel trip] But hey, it's not their money

[The next time you are on vacation, look at your hotel bill. Most major cities have a hotel tax geared toward visitors that stay in their local hotels. Dallas is no different from most major cities in this regard. Having opposition to improving your city because its going to increase the hotel expense for business travelers is asinine.]
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Bob Loblaws Law Blog
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2:54p, 10/28/22
AG
I don't have much to contribute other than the current convention center is complete dump. I don't know how the costs of improvements vs. a new facility stack-up, but some kind of upgrade/improvement is long over-due.
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riverrataggie
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4:24p, 10/28/22
AG
Did some digging…

'Ultimately, bonds are paying for the projects. The money collected with the HOT increase would go toward paying off those bonds, which is basically how the city borrows money for big projects. The projections on how much revenue the city will actually collect can often be rosier than reality, and opponents say that if the hotel industry took a hit (like it did during the pandemic), that would impact the city's ability to repay those bonds. If less is collected, even though the campaign promise is that taxpayers won't be on the hook, they could be on the hook when it comes to their property taxes, where the interest and sinking rate that services city debt could increase to accommodate repaying the bonds. But supporters point out that it's unlikely to happen because bond covenants typically require some kind of coverage that guarantees there is more revenue coming in than the bond is for (and the convention center has its own $66 million in reserves).'

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2022/10/proposition-a-is-on-the-ballot-what-is-it-and-what-do-you-need-to-know/
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YouBet
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10:25a, 10/29/22
AG
Thanks for the thread. Was wondering about this one. Tend to lean towards yes on this one, but haven't decided.

I will say I'm not sure why we keep throwing money at Fair Park. The whole property needs to be razed and rethought. Was one of the few topics I agreed with POS Philip Kingston back when he was on council.
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TMan86
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8:29a, 10/30/22
AG
I appreciate this kind of thread and it contributors. Thanks to each of you. I imagine the participants on this site are generally smarter and are better informed than your average voter.

Really would like to read everyone's thoughts on panhandling and the homeless situation. If I knew more about how to solve these issues maybe I should start another thread.
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YouBet
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In reply to TMan86 • 9:17a, 10/30/22
AG
TMan86 said:
I appreciate this kind of thread and it contributors. Thanks to each of you. I imagine the participants on this site are generally smarter and are better informed than your average voter.

Really would like to read everyone's thoughts on panhandling and the homeless situation. If I knew more about how to solve these issues maybe I should start another thread.
1. Do not incentivize it like some other cities who made it policy to do so.
2. Reinvest in mental health as a country. No idea what this would look like.
3. Get very strict on illicit drugs which includes securing the border which we are currently not doing.

All of the other homeless left over after you do those three things want to be homeless and there is nothing you can do about them other than push them into a corner so we don't have to deal with them.
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Decay
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7:23a, 10/31/22
AG
Stop giving panhandlers money and they go away
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riverrataggie
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In reply to Decay • 8:17a, 10/31/22
AG
Decay said:
Stop giving panhandlers money and they go away


Well said and heading here in a bit to vote no on prop A. We need to stop giving government money. It's not that I don't support refreshing fair park or convention center but there are other solutions to find this money besides asking for new money.


I suggest people go look at what the city spent funds on over the past year. It's down right theft. The money is there to improve Dallas. All I ask is to spend it wisely.
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AggieBarstool
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9:34a, 11/2/22
Which is worse: a "crappy" convention center that brings in some money, or being out of the convention center business (and associated funds to the tune of $200 million a year) for a couple years while a new convention center is built?

I'm leaning toward "no."
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riverrataggie
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10:24p, 11/8/22
AG
Kellso, if the tax revenue falls short I'm sending you a bill. Bc you know they won't cut budgets elsewhere. You just gave them free light it increase taxes.
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Kellso
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In reply to Kellso • 10:37p, 11/8/22
Kellso said:
Vote Yes.

I don't see why anyone would vote no.
Proposition A passed with a 70% to 30% margin.

This was a no brainer.

Tomorrow I want you all to look at the massive amount of traffic on the Dallas freeways. The metroplex is located in the middle of the country. This city won't stop being a hub for business and commerce.
Proposition A increases the hotel expense that business travelers get their corporations to reimburse them for.....boo-hoo.

Fair Park should be be a world class city park like something you would find in Chicago.

Did it ever seem backwards that the West End entertainment district is located on the other side of downtown from the Convention Center?
Up until 10 years ago there was not a connected hotel to the convention center.

These are a few of the little things that Dallas did that was backwards that are slowly being corrected.
The Convention Center can be improved to have better entertainment amenities.
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Kellso
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In reply to riverrataggie • 11:00p, 11/8/22
riverrataggie said:
Kellso, if the tax revenue falls short I'm sending you a bill. Bc you know they won't cut budgets elsewhere. You just gave them free light it increase taxes.
Back in the 1920's and 30's there were San Antonio residents that were against the city passing a Bond that would secure funding for a major city project called the River Walk.

Why should taxes go up for something no one would ever use?
Who the hell would ever want to vacation in San Antonio?

Do you all remember when Victory Park was a sewage waste facility?
That area looks totally different after the city decided to fund the construction of the American Airlines Center, and develop Victory Park.

Downtown Dallas has made tremendous strides over the past 10-15 years.
10 years ago who would have thought that Downtown Dallas would have a community gathering spot (AT&T Discovery District) that would would put Sundance Square in Ft Worth to shame?

There are 5 parks (Klyde Warren Park, Carpenter Park, Pacific Plaza Park, Main Street Garden Park, West End Square, and the AT&T Discovery District) in the Dallas CBD that were not there in 2010.

Proposition A taxes visitors while making long term improvements to the city.
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riverrataggie
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In reply to Kellso • 11:18p, 11/8/22
AG
Kellso said:
riverrataggie said:
Kellso, if the tax revenue falls short I'm sending you a bill. Bc you know they won't cut budgets elsewhere. You just gave them free light it increase taxes.
Back in the 1920's and 30's there were San Antonio residents that were against the city passing a Bond that would secure funding for a major city project called the River Walk.

Why should taxes go up for something no one would ever use?
Who the hell would ever want to vacation in San Antonio?

Do you all remember when Victory Park was a sewage waste facility?
That area looks totally different after the city decided to fund the construction of the American Airlines Center, and develop Victory Park.

Downtown Dallas has made tremendous strides over the past 10-15 years.
10 years ago who would have thought that Downtown Dallas would have a community gathering spot (AT&T Discovery District) that would would put Sundance Square in Ft Worth to shame?

There are 5 parks (Klyde Warren Park, Carpenter Park, Pacific Plaza Park, Main Street Garden Park, West End Square, and the AT&T Discovery District) in the Dallas CBD that were not there in 2010.

Proposition A taxes visitors while making long term improvements to the city.


You are missing the point. Things can be done without massive bonds. Nobody is against spending money to improve the city. I'm against the constant waist over blown budgets. They didn't even try to allocate excess spend. Just tax more.
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walton91
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In reply to Kellso • 12:24a, 11/9/22
Kellso said:
riverrataggie said:
Kellso, if the tax revenue falls short I'm sending you a bill. Bc you know they won't cut budgets elsewhere. You just gave them free light it increase taxes.
Back in the 1920's and 30's there were San Antonio residents that were against the city passing a Bond that would secure funding for a major city project called the River Walk.

Why should taxes go up for something no one would ever use?
Who the hell would ever want to vacation in San Antonio?

Do you all remember when Victory Park was a sewage waste facility?
That area looks totally different after the city decided to fund the construction of the American Airlines Center, and develop Victory Park.

Downtown Dallas has made tremendous strides over the past 10-15 years.
10 years ago who would have thought that Downtown Dallas would have a community gathering spot (AT&T Discovery District) that would would put Sundance Square in Ft Worth to shame?

There are 5 parks (Klyde Warren Park, Carpenter Park, Pacific Plaza Park, Main Street Garden Park, West End Square, and the AT&T Discovery District) in the Dallas CBD that were not there in 2010.

Proposition A taxes visitors while making long term improvements to the city.
I voted for this only because of the money that is desperately needed for Fair Park, which should be one of the premier parks in the country. Having said that, the convention center is such a huge waste of money and more importantly a huge waste of land it makes my head hurt. I lived downtown, near the conv ctr, and its an incredible dead spot in downtown. I've never understood sacrificing so much land and its opportunity (and its a lot) for people who don't live here. Dallas would be much better served developing that land into more residential tying it into the Cedars.
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double aught
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In reply to walton91 • 12:59a, 11/9/22
AG
No, you don't understand. We haven't spent enough of other people's money on the convention center. This time it's gonna be great!
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walton91
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In reply to double aught • 1:21a, 11/9/22
double aught said:
No, you don't understand. We haven't spent enough of other people's money on the convention center. This time it's gonna be great!

"This time its gonna be great" applies to so much about Dallas from Fair Park to the Convention center to the bike plan to Trinity Park. With a weak mayor system Dallas is destined to forever be a city mired under a pile of the latest proposals by consultants promising the next great possibility...that never happen
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double aught
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In reply to walton91 • 1:35a, 11/9/22
AG
I know! Let's white water raft on the trinity!
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Kellso
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In reply to riverrataggie • 7:24a, 11/9/22
riverrataggie said:
Kellso said:
riverrataggie said:
Kellso, if the tax revenue falls short I'm sending you a bill. Bc you know they won't cut budgets elsewhere. You just gave them free light it increase taxes.
Back in the 1920's and 30's there were San Antonio residents that were against the city passing a Bond that would secure funding for a major city project called the River Walk.

Why should taxes go up for something no one would ever use?
Who the hell would ever want to vacation in San Antonio?

Do you all remember when Victory Park was a sewage waste facility?
That area looks totally different after the city decided to fund the construction of the American Airlines Center, and develop Victory Park.

Downtown Dallas has made tremendous strides over the past 10-15 years.
10 years ago who would have thought that Downtown Dallas would have a community gathering spot (AT&T Discovery District) that would would put Sundance Square in Ft Worth to shame?

There are 5 parks (Klyde Warren Park, Carpenter Park, Pacific Plaza Park, Main Street Garden Park, West End Square, and the AT&T Discovery District) in the Dallas CBD that were not there in 2010.

Proposition A taxes visitors while making long term improvements to the city.


You are missing the point. Things can be done without massive bonds. Nobody is against spending money to improve the city. I'm against the constant waist over blown budgets. They didn't even try to allocate excess spend. Just tax more.
so what would be your plan?
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Kellso
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In reply to double aught • 7:28a, 11/9/22
double aught said:
No, you don't understand. We haven't spent enough of other people's money on the convention center. This time it's gonna be great!
You sound like a Texas A&M football fan.

Cities do improve over time with the correct amount of capitol investment.
But don't let me keep you from being a pessimist.

10 years from now no one will admit to being a part of the 30% that voted against Proposition A.
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double aught
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In reply to Kellso • 8:05a, 11/9/22
AG
Kellso said:
double aught said:
No, you don't understand. We haven't spent enough of other people's money on the convention center. This time it's gonna be great!
You sound like a Texas A&M football fan.

Cities do improve over time with the correct amount of capitol investment.
But don't let me keep you from being a pessimist.

10 years from now no one will admit to being a part of the 30% that voted against Proposition A.
Well, it's done now, so I hope you're right. But I've seen the city government in action for a while. There's a high likelihood of mismanagement and waste of funds.
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riverrataggie
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In reply to Kellso • 8:31a, 11/9/22
AG
Kellso said:
riverrataggie said:
Kellso said:
riverrataggie said:
Kellso, if the tax revenue falls short I'm sending you a bill. Bc you know they won't cut budgets elsewhere. You just gave them free light it increase taxes.
Back in the 1920's and 30's there were San Antonio residents that were against the city passing a Bond that would secure funding for a major city project called the River Walk.

Why should taxes go up for something no one would ever use?
Who the hell would ever want to vacation in San Antonio?

Do you all remember when Victory Park was a sewage waste facility?
That area looks totally different after the city decided to fund the construction of the American Airlines Center, and develop Victory Park.

Downtown Dallas has made tremendous strides over the past 10-15 years.
10 years ago who would have thought that Downtown Dallas would have a community gathering spot (AT&T Discovery District) that would would put Sundance Square in Ft Worth to shame?

There are 5 parks (Klyde Warren Park, Carpenter Park, Pacific Plaza Park, Main Street Garden Park, West End Square, and the AT&T Discovery District) in the Dallas CBD that were not there in 2010.

Proposition A taxes visitors while making long term improvements to the city.


You are missing the point. Things can be done without massive bonds. Nobody is against spending money to improve the city. I'm against the constant waist over blown budgets. They didn't even try to allocate excess spend. Just tax more.
so what would be your plan?


Get a quote that is transparent. Show it to everyone. Promote answer questions. Anyone see how this amount came to be? Nope

Then say here is what it costs, here is what we as a city will do. We think we can get this via hotel tax but let's say this amount is half. Here's what that means. Here are the organizations we will cut and this on annual that adds up to x. Trust me, look at the balance sheet lots of fat.

Be transparent. Just don't say. Oh my god, new convention center! People like conventions. Multi billion gimme gimme.
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