Metroplex
Sponsored by

Tornado Shelters

5,969 Views | 38 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Bird Poo
YouBet
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Isn't it kind of incredible that ground zero of all tornados on the planet is essentially the corridor from OKC to DAL and we don't do basements?

If there was one reason to do a basement it would be because you live here and yet almost no one has one. I get our soil has something to do with it, but the one person I know who has one is a Yankee who moved here terrified of tornados. She had one dug out in the floor of her garage.

But we just Lieutenant Dan every storm.
babyshark
How long do you want to ignore this user?
My parents in far north central texas got one put in a couple years ago. Paid for 100% by our tax dollars bc they signed up for it. Also they are fairly common for people w money in builds the last 25 years or so in more rural areas. Today's big box store suburbs aint putting in no tornado shelter.
AgBQ-00
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
There was a time when most homes had a cellar of some sort that would double as a tornado shelter. Lots have gotten ridiculously small and the cost to reinforce a basement enough to withstand the soil movement here is outrageous.
Communists aren't people. They are property of the state.
PatAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
YouBet said:

Isn't it kind of incredible that ground zero of all tornados on the planet is essentially the corridor from OKC to DAL and we don't do basements?

If there was one reason to do a basement it would be because you live here and yet almost no one has one. I get our soil has something to do with it, but the one person I know who has one is a Yankee who moved here terrified of tornados. She had one dug out in the floor of her garage.

But we just Lieutenant Dan every storm.
There are reasons most homes in North Texas don't have basements. It's not because they arent wanted
Ervin Burrell
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Isn't the ground/soil in North Texas completely incompatible with building basements? I've only been in/seen one basement in DFW.
YouBet
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
PatAg said:

YouBet said:

Isn't it kind of incredible that ground zero of all tornados on the planet is essentially the corridor from OKC to DAL and we don't do basements?

If there was one reason to do a basement it would be because you live here and yet almost no one has one. I get our soil has something to do with it, but the one person I know who has one is a Yankee who moved here terrified of tornados. She had one dug out in the floor of her garage.

But we just Lieutenant Dan every storm.
There are reasons most homes in North Texas don't have basements. It's not because they arent wanted


I know. Its the irony of it all.
Bonfire1996
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Isn't the water table to close to the surface? Aren't you guaranteed mold?

That's what I remember. Every basement I've seen in north Texas is where the house was built up, and the "basement" was more than half above ground.
Ornlu
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
YouBet said:

Isn't it kind of incredible that ground zero of all tornados on the planet is essentially the corridor from OKC to DAL and we don't do basements?

If there was one reason to do a basement it would be because you live here and yet almost no one has one. I get our soil has something to do with it, but the one person I know who has one is a Yankee who moved here terrified of tornados. She had one dug out in the floor of her garage.

But we just Lieutenant Dan every storm.


Several inaccuracies here. First, "tornado alley" isn't OKC to Dallas, it's Wichita KS to Wichita Falls TX. Dallas is on the periphery. Second, have you looked at the cost to do a basement? It's $350 to $400 per square foot of basement. For a reasonable shelter for 4 people, that's $50 grand. Can you imagine increasing the cost of every $130k tract house by 35% ?

In the actual heart of tornado alley (West of Fort Worth out to Amarillo, most of Southwest OK, and all of Kansas), people still build tornado shelters. They either build them above-ground as a concrete walled room somewhere in the house, or they do a separate below-ground structure that's very light weight. If they're below ground, they mold, are very dank, and periodically flood - but it doesn't matter because it's not inside your house and you only spend a couple of hours per year there.

I'm a civil engineer who deals in soils. Basements are a terrible idea here. However, we build above-ground shelters into every school and almost every public/government building.
GarlandAg2012
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
The story I've heard and what makes sense to me is that it is possible to engineer a basement that won't be affected by our expanding/contracting soil and shallow water table, but the cost is prohibitive compared to building an above ground panic room, thus people really concerned with tornadoes end up with rooms build to withstand them in the interior of their homes. I mean every high rise ends up digging much deeper than a basement would be and we have no problem building those. It's all about price.
hatchback
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Basements are also more prevalent up north because the foundations must extend below the frost line which can be 4 to 6 feet below grade. By the time you excavate for the foundation to that depth the additional work needed for a basement is minimal.
MW03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I'd think it would be far more cost effective to reinforce an interior closet.
JBLHAG03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
I like the Lt. Dan idea. My double wide aint going no wheres.
The Collective
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
IMO, when you consider the risk vs the $, it probably does not make sense to have shelters here. In a well-built house, you are probably safe. Per the tornado history project, we only have one F4 in the record book between Dallas & Tarrant counties. The long-range intense (high F3 - F5) tornadoes really aren't that common here. Can something like Jarrell happen here? Sure. But, the odds are pretty low. People aren't going to spend thousands upon thousands of $ for something that may never really be necessary.
MW03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
So check this out:

https://saferoom.nctcog.org/

Quote:

North Central Texas Safe Room Rebate Program is funded by a grant provided by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) through the Texas Division of Emergency Management (TDEM). This is a rebate program designed to help homeowners and developers in our region offset the cost of installing above or below ground safe rooms that meet the standards set by FEMA. The counties of Collin, Dallas, Denton, Erath, Ellis, Hood, Hunt, Johnson, Kaufman, Navarro, Palo Pinto, Parker, Rockwall, Somervell, Tarrant, and Wise qualify for this program. This rebate covers half the cost of the construction or installation of an individual safe room, up to a reimbursement cap of $3,000.

Quote:

To participate in the program, applicants must:
  • Be accepted into the program and sent an award packet before installing a safe room.
  • Be living or developing in one of the sixteen counties in the NCTCOG region.
    • Eligible counties include: Collin, Dallas, Denton, Erath, Ellis, Hood, Hunt, Johnson, Kaufman, Navarro, Palo Pinto, Parker, Rockwall, Somervell, Tarrant, and Wise.
  • Own a single-family home. Builders and developers may also apply.
    • Owners of manufactured homes must own structure and land.
    • Cannot be renting.
    • Name must be listed on the proof of homeownership.
    • Builders and developers are capped at 3 safe rooms each and will not qualify for rebate funds until all citizens on the waitlist have been given an opportunity to participate in the program.
  • Allow a review from the State Historical Preservation Office for any home 45 years old or older.
  • Share their Taxpayer Identification Number (Social Security number) with NCTCOG for use in internal financial processing procedures.
  • Agree to allow a final inspection of the installed safe room by a local government official.
  • Allow NCTCOG to share the GPS coordinates of their safe room with first responders in their jurisdiction.
  • NOT be living or developing in a 100 year floodplain (FEMA Flood Zone A/AE) or listed in the Special Flood Hazard Area (SFHA).


Here's a company that will build you an under-the-stairs one that qualifies under FEMA for $6,000

https://www.armoredcloset.com/

So theoretically, you could apply or that rebate program and build a tornado safe room for $3,000. You could probably even mod it into a panic room if that's something that interests you.
saltyoldguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
CJS4715 said:

IMO, when you consider the risk vs the $, it probably does not make sense to have shelters here. In a well-built house, you are probably safe. Per the tornado history project, we only have one F4 in the record book between Dallas & Tarrant counties. The long-range intense (high F3 - F5) tornadoes really aren't that common here. Can something like Jarrell happen here? Sure. But, the odds are pretty low. People aren't going to spend thousands upon thousands of $ for something that may never really be necessary.
Are you counting the 2015 F4 in Rowlett? Thats a F3 and F4 in Dallas County in the last 4.5 years.
For a basement, I agree with your assessment, but not a safe room or the bolt down in garage,etc. type.

For the record, my personal belief is that tornado alley has swung further south, not based on any hard research, just observation. I've lived E of Dallas for 15 years and seen too many (Forney, Canton, Van, Rowlett, Rockwall) just in my area to think something has changed, but again, not a meteorologist.
PatAg
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Bonfire1996 said:

Isn't the water table to close to the surface? Aren't you guaranteed mold?

That's what I remember. Every basement I've seen in north Texas is where the house was built up, and the "basement" was more than half above ground.
Split level houses are always interesting to me when I enter one. I don't know how much of a pain they are to own compared to a "normal" house though.
Texker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Our lot has a fairly significant slope to it which places much of the garage below grade such that stairs are required to enter the back of the house from the garage creating a shelter under the stairs.
The Collective
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
No, let's count that one since it did start in Dallas County. There was also a short lived F4 around Lancaster in the mid 90s.

In fact, if you box off the area from with the following points Sherman to Hillsboro (N to S) and Weatherford to Canton (W to E), there has been 6 F-4 tornadoes and zero F-5 tornadoes. Look at a similar sized area around Oklahoma City, and there is 3x the number of F4s & a few F5s. Another difference up there is the track is much longer, so there is a greater area impacted per tornado.

There has been some talk that tornado alley has shifted more to the east recently. North Texas just doesn't see the powerful, long life tornadoes that are more typical to the north or the east (specifically Mississippi & Alabama).
saltyoldguy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Interesting info. Thanks for sharing.

Now 9 tornadoes confirmed by NWS from Sunday storms.
CowtownEng
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I live in an old neighborhood near downtown Fort Worth. Our house has a basement, as do many of the other houses in our neighborhood. I am also a Civil Engineer (for whatever that is worth) and there is absolutely no reason that a basement cannot be properly designed and installed in North Texas. There are very few areas in this region of Texas where the water table would present a significant issue. Additionally, I assure you that highly plastic shrink/swell soils are found in many other parts of the country where basements are common.

There are a few reasons why basements are not as common in this part of the country:

1. The frost heave potential is quite low considering the mild climate.
2. Basement foundations are more expensive to build than other typical foundation types (e.g. slabs, etc.).
3. It's not common (or necessary) so buyers don't expect it, and therefore the actual knowledge base within most homebuilders is quite low.

With all that being said, for a relatively marginal price increase it's definitely possible to build a new home with a partial or full basement. Assuming one can find a competent contractor (which is a big assumption) it's relatively easy to get a rock solid basement by simply following the ACI code requirements.
Duncan Idaho
How long do you want to ignore this user?
babyshark said:

My parents in far north central texas got one put in a couple years ago. Paid for 100% by our tax dollars bc they signed up for it. Also they are fairly common for people w money in builds the last 25 years or so in more rural areas. Today's big box store suburbs aint putting in no tornado shelter.


All of the lowes and home depots in Alabama sell tornado shelters that you anchor in your garage.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Survive-a-Storm-Shelters-Twister-Pod-4-ft-x-6-ft-Tornado-Storm-Shelter-SASAS04D/205312401
ElephantRider
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
saltgap said:

CJS4715 said:

IMO, when you consider the risk vs the $, it probably does not make sense to have shelters here. In a well-built house, you are probably safe. Per the tornado history project, we only have one F4 in the record book between Dallas & Tarrant counties. The long-range intense (high F3 - F5) tornadoes really aren't that common here. Can something like Jarrell happen here? Sure. But, the odds are pretty low. People aren't going to spend thousands upon thousands of $ for something that may never really be necessary.
Are you counting the 2015 F4 in Rowlett? Thats a F3 and F4 in Dallas County in the last 4.5 years.
For a basement, I agree with your assessment, but not a safe room or the bolt down in garage,etc. type.

For the record, my personal belief is that tornado alley has swung further south, not based on any hard research, just observation. I've lived E of Dallas for 15 years and seen too many (Forney, Canton, Van, Rowlett, Rockwall) just in my area to think something has changed, but again, not a meteorologist.
I lived in Van Zandt County until I went to college (2009), and moved back last year. There have probably been more tornadoes in the last 5 years than we had in the previous 20. It definitely seems like something has changed.
Yep66
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Old Tom Morris
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I have a co-worker that grew up in Moscow and was freaked out enough about Texas weather that she had one of the Lowes/Home Depot above ground versions installed.
sawthemoffxx
How long do you want to ignore this user?
ElephantRider said:

saltgap said:

CJS4715 said:

IMO, when you consider the risk vs the $, it probably does not make sense to have shelters here. In a well-built house, you are probably safe. Per the tornado history project, we only have one F4 in the record book between Dallas & Tarrant counties. The long-range intense (high F3 - F5) tornadoes really aren't that common here. Can something like Jarrell happen here? Sure. But, the odds are pretty low. People aren't going to spend thousands upon thousands of $ for something that may never really be necessary.
Are you counting the 2015 F4 in Rowlett? Thats a F3 and F4 in Dallas County in the last 4.5 years.
For a basement, I agree with your assessment, but not a safe room or the bolt down in garage,etc. type.

For the record, my personal belief is that tornado alley has swung further south, not based on any hard research, just observation. I've lived E of Dallas for 15 years and seen too many (Forney, Canton, Van, Rowlett, Rockwall) just in my area to think something has changed, but again, not a meteorologist.
I lived in Van Zandt County until I went to college (2009), and moved back last year. There have probably been more tornadoes in the last 5 years than we had in the previous 20. It definitely seems like something has changed.
The atmosphere is getting warmer. There is no denying it at this point.
GarlandAg2012
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Don't tell forum 16 that.
The Collective
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Warming and it's impact on intensity, duration, & location of severe weather is an interesting discussion. The difficult part in comparing to history is that tornadoes and severe storms are so localized that the overall history is admittedly pretty weak. Also, we've put a ton of development right in the heart of areas prone to severe weather. I've always wondered how many hail storms used to occur in a place like Collin County, but nobody really knew the severity of the event.

All things considered and what I said earlier about risk, if you have a F4 bearing down on your home, you probably won't be sad that you dropped $10k on a safe room.
Phat32
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
But the problem is there is a 0.0000002% chance that ever happens. So no one builds them.
Enviroag02
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
IMO, alot of people confuse tornado shelters with survival shelters/panic rooms. There is no need for large amounts of food and water supplies, beds, etc in a tornado shelter. If you desire peace of mind from potential tornados your goal should be to get a shelter that is as small as possible, as aerodynamic as possible, as strong as possible, and with as strong an anchoring system as possible (if above ground). If tornadoes are what you are considering, then time spent inside the shelter is only 15-20 minutes or less, especially if the door can be lifted straight off the hinges in the case of being blocked by debris. When people see my shelter their first response is, "damn how can you fit food and water in there?!". Tornado shelters shouldn't be built for that purpose. If you want a multi purpose shelter, then sure, go bigger. For me, I had a specific space in my garage, it's only me/wife/2 dogs, so this is perfect.

https://www.newdaytornadoshelters.com/

It's 1/4" thicker than the similar Home Depot brands. It's padded and lighted, and also has a ton of additional features not found in the Home Depot ones. In the age of tv and radar technology, there is no need to immediately get into a storm shelter as soon as a Tornado Warning is issued. These days I get text messages from the Rockwall County Office of Emergency Management that has hyper localized information including intersection and direction of travel for any tornadoes. With this last outbreak we had one spotted about 3 miles North of us but it was moving Northeast so we didn't spend any time in the shelter. We just hang out close to it with the door open while watching and listening to tv, live streams, etc. In the event of a tornado that destroys our house, we'd only be in the shelter a few minutes.
The Collective
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
yukmonkey said:

But the problem is there is a 0.0000002% chance that ever happens. So no one builds them.


Yep.
Duncan Idaho
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I agree with you but they tend to fall into the never ending cycle of "well for another grand we can add this..and then since we are looking at $10k.what is an extra 5? Hell that's almost $20k. At this point we might as well add the safe door and route all of our storage in there and I mean I guess we should make it comfortable if we are going to be in it for a while so let's drop a tv in there. And while we are at it...."
Locknload
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Quote:

The atmosphere is getting warmer. There is no denying it at this point.
Quote:

Don't tell forum 16 that.

Tornadoes like this never happened before. Oh except that tornado in May of 1976 in Dallas that followed the nearly identical path as this one so I am sure it is climate change!
Sure the 1976 tornado destroyed a church on Midway Road across the street from the now destroyed Walnut Hill Elementary and then hit the same Orchid Lane just behind Preston Royal shopping center but go ahead and tell us all about how different things are now smart guy Al Gore, Jr.
Genius.
ElephantRider
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Locknload said:

Quote:

The atmosphere is getting warmer. There is no denying it at this point.
Quote:

Don't tell forum 16 that.

Tornadoes like this never happened before. Oh except that tornado in May of 1976 in Dallas that followed the nearly identical path as this one so I am sure it is climate change!
Sure the 1976 tornado destroyed a church on Midway Road across the street from the now destroyed Walnut Hill Elementary and then hit the same Orchid Lane just behind Preston Royal shopping center but go ahead and tell us all about how different things are now smart guy Al Gore, Jr.
Genius.

Triggered
Phat32
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Tornados are becoming more frequent due to climate change.

Or they're the exact same frequency and our detection/reporting has improved exponentially over the past 100 years.

Hmmm.
Bonfire1996
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
yukmonkey said:

Tornados are becoming more frequent due to climate change.

Or they're the exact same frequency and our detection/reporting has improved exponentially over the past 100 years.

Hmmm.

This. In years passed, the situation in Dallas would have been one, maybe two, confirmed tornadoes.

But with today's technology, it's nine.
Page 1 of 2
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.