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Any escaped lawyers out there?

5,580 Views | 38 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by proc
CostanzaWallet
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Posted this on the Job Network forum and it didn't get much traffic. I'm based in Dallas, so I figured I would throw it out here and see if any of my fellow D/FW area residents have successfully escaped the billable hour.

If so, how did you go about making the switch out of law practice and what do you now?

I've been practicing litigation about 4 years and have come to the conclusion that I'm gonna lose my mind if I come to work for the next 40 years and crank out the same documents and listen to the same depo testimony over and over again.

I've thought about getting into legal tech in a business development role, going in house for awhile, or getting out of the legal field altogether.

Any thoughts, advice, encouraging stories would be appreciated.
Battered.Ag
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sorry I can't answer your question, but as a 1L, this is scary to read!!!
SuzyQ06
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I know your pain.

I've been in practice 10 years now, 4.5 at a firm, 5.5 on my own (well, technically, I have a partner, but we are eat what you kill). I still bill by the hour, but I work for myself. I only have myself to blame (and clients who can't pay, which ultimately is my fault) if I don't make money.

I vastly prefer this life to the one when I was a cog in the big firm machine. I do enjoy my work (family law) and I think I'm fairly good at it.

Call me if you want to chat, or meet for lunch. I'm on the state board for young lawyers here in Texas and this year we are focusing entirely on mental health. The issues you are facing are real and common.

To the 1L: you can still quit. Really. Some of my friends quit law school, and while I'm sure that decision was painful for them, one made it on the cover of Time magazine (or a similar stature publication) for a nonprofit he started right after he quit law school. If you don't like being a 1L and you don't like your classmates, guess what, there are just more *******s out there after you graduate.

We should get a TexAgs lawyers group together for a HH sometime and take our *****ing offline.
Battered.Ag
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thank you so much for your response... I think I'm doing well academically so far, and am not yet at the point where dropping out is really on the radar for the near future, but I do get extremely doubtful when I think about future employment options. I would love if we all did a happy hour some time soon. I'm going back to college station for the game this weekend but next week is my fall "break"... just sayin'!
SuzyQ06
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Costanza,

Really, hit me up. Hanging my shingle was the best thing I did.

As personal insight to me, and maybe an overshare on a public forum: I quit my job at a large firm in Fort Worth at what I thought was a good time. Except it was the worst time. I didn't know that I was almost two months pregnant then. I learned I was pregnant the night before my firm opened. The game changed entirely. I went from "could afford to fail" to "must succeed and make money now" in less than 24 hours.

I made a $15 profit my first month in business. My third call after I hung a shingle was from an old friend needing a divorce. Except she was gay. And married out of state. And Texas didn't allow "gay divorce." That call changed my trajectory. I accidentally landed on the front page of the Star Telegram twice, gave 5 televised interviews (three at the beginning, one at the court of appeals, and one back at the trial court when the court finally granted the divorce).

I have since had two kids. I can leave my office right now if I want. I still bill by the hour and I NEVER bill more than 5 hours in a day (usually...unless I'm in court). I am tech support, plumbing, billing, and a lawyer all rolled into one. Sometimes I hate it, sometimes I love it. Most of the time I like it. And that is good enough for me. Right now, I'm fairly burned out with all the family drama that always surrounds me, but I have a tolerance for it.

If I can do it, you can too. Really. You can.

You will get help from places you never expect. And then you won't receive help from those that should extend a hand. It is hard, but I would almost never go back to a big firm where someone else is monitoring my hours. I am never doing the same thing every day.

Please feel free to reach out. I'm happy to share my experiences.
DevilYack
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I switched over to higher ed, then made a move into compliance. It's been fun and easy on the family. There is currently lots of growth in compliance work in general as the regulations aren't stopping anytime soon.
MW03
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What kind of litigation are you in?
MW03
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And for the record, I think an Aggie Attorneys group is a solid idea, be it metroplex-based or otherwise.
Keeper of The Spirits
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Lit Tech isn't bad, especially the sales. I run lit tech projects and sell our services
Decay
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Keeper of The Spirits said:

Lit Tech isn't bad, especially the sales. I run lit tech projects and sell our services

Lit tech?
hbc07
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MW03 said:

And for the record, I think an Aggie Attorneys group is a solid idea, be it metroplex-based or otherwise.
There is the Aggie Bar Association, which I've been meaning to join. But I don't think they do happy hours locally.
CostanzaWallet
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battered.ag said:

sorry I can't answer your question, but as a 1L, this is scary to read!!!

I would highly encourage to research and give a lot of thought to how law firms and lawyers actually make money. Then ask yourself: do I want my compensation and my value to the place I work to be measured exclusively by the amount of hours I can force myself to keep my butt glued to a chair in front of a computer every year?

I would also encourage you to start reading up on legal tech because I believe traditional law practice will be in decline over the course of our careers. Tomorrow's Lawyers by Richard Susskind is a good place to start.

Think outside the box, don't just think about finishing in the top 10% so you can burn a hole through your eye sockets doing doc review and writing BS motions at a big firm
CostanzaWallet
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SuzyQ06 said:

Costanza,

Really, hit me up. Hanging my shingle was the best thing I did.

As personal insight to me, and maybe an overshare on a public forum: I quit my job at a large firm in Fort Worth at what I thought was a good time. Except it was the worst time. I didn't know that I was almost two months pregnant then. I learned I was pregnant the night before my firm opened. The game changed entirely. I went from "could afford to fail" to "must succeed and make money now" in less than 24 hours.

I made a $15 profit my first month in business. My third call after I hung a shingle was from an old friend needing a divorce. Except she was gay. And married out of state. And Texas didn't allow "gay divorce." That call changed my trajectory. I accidentally landed on the front page of the Star Telegram twice, gave 5 televised interviews (three at the beginning, one at the court of appeals, and one back at the trial court when the court finally granted the divorce).

I have since had two kids. I can leave my office right now if I want. I still bill by the hour and I NEVER bill more than 5 hours in a day (usually...unless I'm in court). I am tech support, plumbing, billing, and a lawyer all rolled into one. Sometimes I hate it, sometimes I love it. Most of the time I like it. And that is good enough for me. Right now, I'm fairly burned out with all the family drama that always surrounds me, but I have a tolerance for it.

If I can do it, you can too. Really. You can.

You will get help from places you never expect. And then you won't receive help from those that should extend a hand. It is hard, but I would almost never go back to a big firm where someone else is monitoring my hours. I am never doing the same thing every day.

Please feel free to reach out. I'm happy to share my experiences.

Thanks for the encouragement. I will reach out.
CostanzaWallet
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MW03 said:

What kind of litigation are you in?

I had a very hard time finding a job out of law school (went to Tech, finished at top of class but couldn't find a job for the life of me for some reason). I still didn't have a job after I took the bar, but I had a friend at an insurance defense firm in Austin that reached out to me. Insurance defense was about the last thing I thought I wanted to do, but I also didn't want to be one those post-law school saps that moves back in with their parents so I took the job.

I figured out after about 6 months that I didn't have the stomach for it and became really jaded on the legal profession due to the waste and inefficiency I saw. Plaintiff's firms just file as many cases as possible, and those insurance defense firms just bill as much as possible. The partners don't have an earthly clue what is going on in the cases, so I taught myself everything. (I actually had a buddy start at a pretty well respected insurance defense firm in Dallas be told on his first day of work as a lawyer that he should be in the office for 8 hours a day but bill 10 to 10.5 during that time. So much for the noble profession BS they harp on in law school.)

I thought I would like it better if I got to a different firm, so I got a job with a construction litigation firm in Dallas. It has been a lot better than my last job and the partners are much more engaged. Even so, it is still fundamentally the same thing over and over again. We represent sureties so the cycle goes like this: construction project goes bad, owners or subs make claims on performance or payment bond, we fight about/ pay those claims for a few years and rack up loss and attorneys' fees, then we turn around and sue the bond principal under their indemnity agreement. I sit at my desk every day and crank out the same type documents over and over. I have handled 1 substantive hearing in 4 years (and I get very good feedback and they tell me I perform like a much older lawyer, meaning that I feel I'm doing everything I can do to be entrusted with more). I have taken one deposition in 4 years.

I just can't see myself becoming a partner at this firm and still be looking at the exact same stuff in 20-25 years.

Sorry for the long rant. I really do work hard and do my best to be a great employee, but I'm just ready to find something else.
CostanzaWallet
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Keeper of The Spirits said:

Lit Tech isn't bad, especially the sales. I run lit tech projects and sell our services

What type of services are you selling?

80085
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You all are making me rethink patent bar as an engineering escape
MW03
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CostanzaWallet said:

MW03 said:

What kind of litigation are you in?

I had a very hard time finding a job out of law school (went to Tech, finished at top of class but couldn't find a job for the life of me for some reason). I still didn't have a job after I took the bar, but I had a friend at an insurance defense firm in Austin that reached out to me. Insurance defense was about the last thing I thought I wanted to do, but I also didn't want to be one those post-law school saps that moves back in with their parents so I took the job.

I figured out after about 6 months that I didn't have the stomach for it and became really jaded on the legal profession due to the waste and inefficiency I saw. Plaintiff's firms just file as many cases as possible, and those insurance defense firms just bill as much as possible. The partners don't have an earthly clue what is going on in the cases, so I taught myself everything. (I actually had a buddy start at a pretty well respected insurance defense firm in Dallas be told on his first day of work as a lawyer that he should be in the office for 8 hours a day but bill 10 to 10.5 during that time. So much for the noble profession BS they harp on in law school.)

I thought I would like it better if I got to a different firm, so I got a job with a construction litigation firm in Dallas. It has been a lot better than my last job and the partners are much more engaged. Even so, it is still fundamentally the same thing over and over again. We represent sureties so the cycle goes like this: construction project goes bad, owners or subs make claims on performance or payment bond, we fight about/ pay those claims for a few years and rack up loss and attorneys' fees, then we turn around and sue the bond principal under their indemnity agreement. I sit at my desk every day and crank out the same type documents over and over. I have handled 1 substantive hearing in 4 years (and I get very good feedback and they tell me I perform like a much older lawyer, meaning that I feel I'm doing everything I can do to be entrusted with more). I have taken one deposition in 4 years.

I just can't see myself becoming a partner at this firm and still be looking at the exact same stuff in 20-25 years.

Sorry for the long rant. I really do work hard and do my best to be a great employee, but I'm just ready to find something else.

It sounds like you know yourself pretty well, which is an excellent start. You're also young enough not to be pigeon-holed to the point where "starting over" in a new area of the law would set you back that much in terms of salary. It's an easier decision 2 years in, less so 4 years in but still relatively easy, and near impossible 10+ years in.

I want to encourage you to follow your gut, but with a couple of important caveats.

First, be mindful of your finances and your obligations. As Seneca wrote 2000 years ago, "If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable." Looking for work you're passionate about it a worthy pursuit, but it has to be tempered by what you owe others. And I'm not just talking about money lenders. I'm also talking about your parents and your partner, and of course any dependents you might have. By the way, your face time with those people is valuable as well, and evaluating what you gain there compared to being in your office chair is also part of the tempering process.

Second, I'd offer that while you can find passion in your work, that is an exception to the rule from my experiences. Lawyers, by nature, are driven, Type A people. Litigators especially so. We're also used to being tested and excelling at those tests. At some point, the testing stops and the work begins, and I think everyone fears waking up and being 50 and unhappy. We all glorify what we do a little too much. We go to school prepared to be excellent, then have altruistic dreams of changing the world or putting away drug lords or whatever. Then, that first student loan payment comes due. Next thing you know, a number of years have gone by and you're miles away from where you thought you would be. Everything feels rote. Everything feels routine. But to a certain extent, that is the professional life, whether it's a general practitioner treating the same cold symptoms every October or the general contractor watching concrete poured at the same mini-mall he's built 100 times. That's why we all have an obligation to ourselves to make our lives mean more than our paychecks. Whether that's Church or friends or kids or hobbies or volunteering or whatever. You have to be vigilant to look for passion outside work at least as much - if not more so - than you do at work.

However...

Life is too short to be miserable 10 hours a day, 5 days a week. Like I said above before I started rambling, you sound like a person who knows themselves pretty well, and that's invaluable. Your instincts, if measured and evaluated the right way, are as valuable as any advice anyone can give you.

So I'm going to go back to Seneca for my last thought on the matter: "True happiness is to understand our duties toward God and man; to enjoy the present, without anxious dependence on the future; not to amuse ourselves with either hopes or fears, but to rest satisfied with what we have, which is abundantly sufficient."

End diatribe.
SuzyQ06
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Costanza,

You are me when I was 4 years in. I went to court maybe once every 6 months. I was skittish as hell in a courtroom, and I knew I wanted to be in a courtroom. All I was doing was research, discovery motions, memos to the file, and attend depos where I didn't do any questioning. The dearth of trial experience is real and growing in the bigger firms. Hell, most firms send their SENIOR associates and junior partners to trial academies to get courtroom experience. I knew I wouldn't get the type of legal experience I wanted in a large firm.

Possible changes for you: 1) move to a FW firm. We practice law completely different over here (better, in my opinion ). 2) hang a shingle; 3) leave law practice entirely to something else.

I don't know if court is your thing, but if it is, consider family law. It's not as bad as you would think. Your construction experience will actually give you a leg up. Yes there are ****ty family law attorneys out there. But if you know the TRCP, you'll have a leg up. Now, most family lawyers will eat your lunch in the courtroom if you've been behind a desk and haven't put on an evidentiary case in a courtroom yet. Thats a common misconception about family lawyers, while they may be less "on point" with the TRCP, most will know the courtroom like the back of their hand. Family lawyers and criminal attorneys are the real "trial lawyers" these days (yeah, I said that, bring it all you "civil litigators"!)

I'm in court twice a week on average; sometimes less, sometimes more. If that thought makes your mouth water a little, let's talk. If your heart plummets, then you have your answer.

Read MW03's response a couple times. I did, and I should probably read it a couple more times. Good stuff in there.

Is the CALSiT thread still alive? That was an "orgy of blow hard lawyers" over on the Politics board, but it may have evaporated when Texags split Politics from Religion, or whatever other board it was at the time. I think it was started back in 2004 or something, and continued for YEARS.


***

What about a HH in Arlington or mid-cities area in November? On a Tuesday or Thursday?

Keeper of The Spirits
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Lit Tech = Litigation Technology but more broad I guess is legal technology

Everything from legal hold and eDiscovery solutions with technology assisted review that use machine learning, linguistics and basic AI, to Automated contract review, Contract Life Cycle Management tools, spend and matter management tools, collaboration and document management platforms really any software that touches legal or a law firm.

Not surprisingly most law firms and legal departments are less than modern when it comes to technology. That being said it helps to practice some before diving into the tech so that your understand the marketplace
John Francis Donaghy
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Quote:

Everything feels rote. Everything feels routine. But to a certain extent, that is the professional life, whether it's a general practitioner treating the same cold symptoms every October or the general contractor watching concrete poured at the same mini-mall he's built 100 times. That's why we all have an obligation to ourselves to make our lives mean more than our paychecks. Whether that's Church or friends or kids or hobbies or volunteering or whatever. You have to be vigilant to look for passion outside work at least as much - if not more so - than you do at work.

There aren't enough blue stars in the world for this.

I made the jump to legal tech. I like what I do and I like my company, but at the end of the day I still spend my days in an office looking at computer screens. I'm just doing different things on those screens. If you're looking for a job change to solve all your problems, you're in for a disappointment. Work is work. There's a reason they have to pay you to get you to show up.
Decay
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Very cool, I'm in IT and I was trying to figure out if it meant technology-focused legal or legal-focused technology... for sure that's not my field but I try to keep my ears open anyway, you know?

Thanks for the explanation!
BoDog
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My son is leaning towards law school. I have always had my "concerns" but this tells me a lot. The few lawyers I know don't really love what they do. All really seem beaten down when they talk about their careers.
TXAggieMom11
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There is good information here. My future DIL is a 1L and is absolutely loving it and scored high on mid-terms. She is a TAMU class of '19 but graduated a full year early and spent last year working in a law firm in the office. I think it opened her eyes in many ways. I am not sure what type of law she is looking at but the firm she was working at promised one if she went into litigation.
PoppaB05
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I really liked law school and at the same time hated the people I went to law school with. Had a unique situation due to Hurricane Katrina but had a hard time finding a job I didn't hate. Figured out that the profession was little like law school and I was surrounded by people I didn't like doing something that was soul crushing. Finally left, got into education and it was the best decision I have ever made other than marrying my wife. You couldn't pay me enough money to go back. Life is too short to do something every day just for money.
CostanzaWallet
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BoDog said:

My son is leaning towards law school. I have always had my "concerns" but this tells me a lot. The few lawyers I know don't really love what they do. All really seem beaten down when they talk about their careers.

Tell him to research the reality of law school cost and be very realistic about employment post law school. Law school is not a gravy train to the upper middle class as long as you make decent grades like it used to be.

Tell him to read:

  • The Lawyer Bubble by Steven Harper
  • Don't Go to Law School Unless by Paul Campos
  • Tomorrow's Lawyers by Richard Susskind
  • Glass Half Full: The Decline and Rebirth of the Legal Profession by Benjamin Barton.

All books I wish I would have read before deciding to go to school instead of after starting work.

Tell him to work in a law firm environment for an extended time. Don't just talk to lawyers about it. When lawyers talk to people considering law school, they tend to speak in generalities like: "intellectual challenge," "collegial environment," "relationships with clients." He needs to see what is actually is before he decides to go.
double aught
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You guys are making me feel better about my profession.
Pelayo
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Ditto
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Ornlu
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Me too.

I had a pretty "meh" day as an engineer today. Circled back to this post, and yep: I feel better about my profession now.
SuzyQ06
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Ornlu said:

Me too.

I had a pretty "meh" day as an engineer today. Circled back to this post, and yep: I feel better about my profession now.

My husband is an engineer. Sometimes, I ask him what it feels like to actually make something, that lasts, for longer than a few years. He laughs.

One of my biggest frustrations is that all of my efforts, my mental labor, my agonizing over strategy and options for clients, which can take hours, are encapsulated in either a sentence or a paragraph on a page. And then the other attorney on the other side fights about that sentence. Litigation has been compared to surgery except that the other surgeon is trying to kill the patient that you are trying to save--it really does feel that way sometimes. And then you get the clients that **** the bed and make a mess of their own case.

P.C. Principal
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BoDog said:

My son is leaning towards law school. I have always had my "concerns" but this tells me a lot. The few lawyers I know don't really love what they do. All really seem beaten down when they talk about their careers.
I think that every single college student considers law school at one point. Like "hmm that may be a good degree to have" especially in this world where a college degree means less and graduate degrees are becoming more of a necessity.

Lots of these students drop the idea after a while, some study for an take the LSAT, some apply to schools then drop it, some actually matriculate in law school, and some stick it out through. Many of these kids do it without giving it the serious consideration it deserves. Do you actually want to be a lawyer? Do you know what law practice is like? Are you ready to take out this much in loans to pursue this?

In reality, a lot of kids in college (and recent grads) have no idea what they really want to do in life, so they consider law school because they find it interesting and it gives them a few more years to be a student and think it all through, all while earning a respected degree.

I know because I was one of these kids. I applied to law school thinking it was my thing because I have always found the law interesting, I like to argue, and I like problem solving. That's all fine and dandy but I still did not fully appreciate what REAL LIFE LAW PRACTICE is like. The insane pressure to bill, the cutthroat competition, the BS from opposing counsels, judges, so many deadlines to meet. Some people love this and it excites them. Some people put up with it and work in a sweatshop big firm then are stuck in the golden handcuffs living an unhappy life.

I don't hate law practice and there are parts of it I actually enjoy. I like representing real life people and talking them through their legal problems. I like appearing in court and taking depos. But if I could do it all over again would I still go? Probably not. I could make more money doing something more fulfilling if I took some time off after high school to really consider what I wanted out of life, and then go into college with a much better idea of the career I want to pursue. I didn't do that. I gave into the pressure of going straight to college because I "ought to" and everyone else is, and chose a major I wasn't really sure about because clock's a tickin' and I gotta pick something.

Bottom line is this: It's okay to not know what you want to do. Take some time to think about it and discover your strengths and in the mean time work somewhere just to pay bills.

Again, practicing law is rewarding at times and I am overall a happy person. But I do get where people come from when they complain about the law. And I do fear waking up at age 50 (I'm 30 now) as a miserable, unhappy lawyer wishing I did something I enjoyed more. For that reason I don't think I'll practice forever. What will I do after? I don't know. I just know I can't be in a firm until retirement.
P.C. Principal
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SuzyQ06 said:



We should get a TexAgs lawyers group together for a HH sometime and take our *****ing offline.
I'd love to do this. Maybe meet at some cool bar in Dallas.
Schall 02
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AG
Cant agree more with SuzyQ: hanging a shingle was the best thing I ever did. I'm 2 years in and wish I would have done it sooner.

Little do they know, SuzyQ and PoppaB once played nintendo wii together on the edge of the earth (or at least the USA).
Schall 02
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P.C. Principal said:

SuzyQ06 said:



We should get a TexAgs lawyers group together for a HH sometime and take our *****ing offline.
I'd love to do this. Maybe meet at some cool bar in Dallas.


Would love this. If it could happen over the holidays, I'd do my best to make it.
Mr. White
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AgLaw
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Schall 02 said:

P.C. Principal said:

SuzyQ06 said:



We should get a TexAgs lawyers group together for a HH sometime and take our *****ing offline.
I'd love to do this. Maybe meet at some cool bar in Dallas.


Would love this. If it could happen over the holidays, I'd do my best to make it.
Same.
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