TAMU MGT Consultant Report is Out
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Last: 2 yr ago by jja79
Thanks for volunteering to summarize it for all of us.
trouble said:
Thanks for volunteering to summarize it for all of us.
You're the best.
Lots of reshuffling of departments. None being eliminated.
Looks like some staff will be reduced, maybe admins too?
It's a long report.
Did not have time to read fully but saw nothing eye-popping or head double-take inducing at first glance.
Looks like some staff will be reduced, maybe admins too?
It's a long report.
Did not have time to read fully but saw nothing eye-popping or head double-take inducing at first glance.
"Recommendation #3: Establish a Department of Journalism"
I've been at A&M long enough to watch them take apart the journalism program only to have a recommendation made to bring it back!
I've been at A&M long enough to watch them take apart the journalism program only to have a recommendation made to bring it back!
Good summary here if you're willing to venture to the Politics Board:
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3242644/replies/60560840
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3242644/replies/60560840
Same.
[Add to the discussion if you are going to post on this board but do not derail threads by talking about other boards. -Staff]
Not a fan at all of the first recommendation, to combine College of Geoscience, College of Science, and College of Liberal Arts into one big "College of Arts & Sciences". It detracts from the value of each college, and indicates to prospective students that A&M doesn't do arts or sciences particularly well if they are just lumped together. Bigger does not always equal better in a large school that boasts a "small school" feel.
while I tend to agree, it is done at many universities.Slagathor said:
Not a fan at all of the first recommendation, to combine College of Geoscience, College of Science, and College of Liberal Arts into one big "College of Arts & Sciences". It detracts from the value of each college, and indicates to prospective students that A&M doesn't do arts or sciences particularly well if they are just lumped together. Bigger does not always equal better in a large school that boasts a "small school" feel.
Slagathor said:
Not a fan at all of the first recommendation, to combine College of Geoscience, College of Science, and College of Liberal Arts into one big "College of Arts & Sciences". It detracts from the value of each college, and indicates to prospective students that A&M doesn't do arts or sciences particularly well if they are just lumped together. Bigger does not always equal better in a large school that boasts a "small school" feel.
Yes because math, physics, chemistry and biology students have so much in common with English history and comminications. I would be very much opposed to this. Gives to much room for liberal arts to exert influence of actual science.
skeetboy3 said:while I tend to agree, it is done at many universities.Slagathor said:
Not a fan at all of the first recommendation, to combine College of Geoscience, College of Science, and College of Liberal Arts into one big "College of Arts & Sciences". It detracts from the value of each college, and indicates to prospective students that A&M doesn't do arts or sciences particularly well if they are just lumped together. Bigger does not always equal better in a large school that boasts a "small school" feel.
There is no argument weaker in my book then an appeal to a majority or commonality of something.
What's MGT?
Grab some popcorn...why the ongoing cover-up? The Phenomenon: FF to 1:22:35 https://tubitv.com/movies/632920/the-phenomenon
An est. 68 MILLION Americans, including 19 MILLION Black Children, have been killed in the WOMB since 1973-act, pray and vote accordingly.
TAMU purpose statement: To develop leaders of character dedicated to serving the greater good. Team entrance song at KYLE FIELD is laced with profanity including THE Nword..
The greater good?
An est. 68 MILLION Americans, including 19 MILLION Black Children, have been killed in the WOMB since 1973-act, pray and vote accordingly.
TAMU purpose statement: To develop leaders of character dedicated to serving the greater good. Team entrance song at KYLE FIELD is laced with profanity including THE Nword..
The greater good?
Keep in mind it is simply a recommendation.
Will everything in the report be followed, I doubt it.
Even if it did, it would take years to implement everything that was detailed in the report.
But, if it is done at Purdue….
Will everything in the report be followed, I doubt it.
Even if it did, it would take years to implement everything that was detailed in the report.
But, if it is done at Purdue….
"Gimme a diablo sandwhich and a dr. pepper...to go"
There were a few things that caught my eye when quickly reviewing the bold text yesterday.
To me, this is important for the campus and the community. It's crazy how frequently I visit other (smaller) campuses with these things and A&M just doesn't. The gardens and Aggie Park are definitely a start, but I'd be pleased with this focus as a whole.Quote:
Recommendation #4: Invest in cultural centers, including a performing arts center, a museum and hospitality center, and campus gardens
This is a great idea. If A&M is going to develop here, using Visualization to anchor this is brilliant. That's the program A&M is known for in this realm and gives credibility to this school. And those pursuing Viz didn't like that it was under ARCH in the first place...Quote:
Recommendation #2: Establish a School of Visual and Performing Arts with new departments in music, performing arts, and fine 25 ACADEMIC REALIGNMENT arts, and relocate the Department of Visualization to anchor this new school.
No brainer. Everyone has been saying this since they inexplicably scraped the program originally.Quote:
Recommendation #3: Establish a Department of Journalism
That school has always felt like a secret. It doesn't get much publicity on-campus or off, so this makes sense. Plus poli sci shouldn't be under Liberal Arts anyway.Quote:
Recommendation #4: Elevate and expand the Bush School of Government and Public Service to be a highly visible and accessible part of the university portfolio through significant investment and a merger with the Department of Political Science.
Brilliant. A conservative university shouldn't have a LIBERAL arts college. I'm sure F16 will count this as a win.Quote:
Recommendation #1: Combine the College of Liberal Arts, the College of Science, and the College of Geosciences to create a new College of Arts and Sciences.
An Arts and Sciences College has nothing to do with whether this is a "conservative" school or not; it's a very common model among peer R1 institutions. U. Illinois is but one example.
Weird watching this report becoming ideological fodder of any kind...when it isn't.
Weird watching this report becoming ideological fodder of any kind...when it isn't.
Are the MGT contributors aware of the entrance tune at KYLE Field for our fb team? How did the admin drop that ball? Is there an agenda here as well?
Grab some popcorn...why the ongoing cover-up? The Phenomenon: FF to 1:22:35 https://tubitv.com/movies/632920/the-phenomenon
An est. 68 MILLION Americans, including 19 MILLION Black Children, have been killed in the WOMB since 1973-act, pray and vote accordingly.
TAMU purpose statement: To develop leaders of character dedicated to serving the greater good. Team entrance song at KYLE FIELD is laced with profanity including THE Nword..
The greater good?
An est. 68 MILLION Americans, including 19 MILLION Black Children, have been killed in the WOMB since 1973-act, pray and vote accordingly.
TAMU purpose statement: To develop leaders of character dedicated to serving the greater good. Team entrance song at KYLE FIELD is laced with profanity including THE Nword..
The greater good?
I was obviously being factitious (thus the winky face) because of the F16 thread posted aboveFlyRod said:
An Arts and Sciences College has nothing to do with whether this is a "conservative" school or not; it's a very common model among peer R1 institutions. U. Illinois is but one example.
Weird watching this report becoming ideological fodder of any kind...when it isn't.
No worries, wasn't accusing you of ideologizing the report (which, again, struck me as very un ideological).
At some point I'll dig into it a little deeper but right now it all seems pretty common-sense.
I've heard more confusion from TAMU folks then panic or applause this far. I guess we'll get more details in December.
At some point I'll dig into it a little deeper but right now it all seems pretty common-sense.
I've heard more confusion from TAMU folks then panic or applause this far. I guess we'll get more details in December.
it was a joke...FlyRod said:
An Arts and Sciences College has nothing to do with whether this is a "conservative" school or not; it's a very common model among peer R1 institutions. U. Illinois is but one example.
Weird watching this report becoming ideological fodder of any kind...when it isn't.
But if we're being honest, there are quite a few wasted resources in the College of Liberal Arts, and Geosciences as well. There was even talk a few years ago of Geosciences being broken up and sending their departments to the College of Science, it's a small college that's had struggles and leadership issues over the years. It wouldn't come as a shock.Slagathor said:
Not a fan at all of the first recommendation, to combine College of Geoscience, College of Science, and College of Liberal Arts into one big "College of Arts & Sciences". It detracts from the value of each college, and indicates to prospective students that A&M doesn't do arts or sciences particularly well if they are just lumped together. Bigger does not always equal better in a large school that boasts a "small school" feel.
I think we're more likely to cut the dead weight by creating a College of Arts & Sciences. They referenced the University of Michigan and the University of Florida as elite institutions that have done this. I think it makes sense.
The Dept of Visualization has been incredibly successful and had students go on to work at Pixar and Disney. I think it's a great idea to get out from under Architecture and anchor a new school of visual and performing arts. I think this would provide better support to the performing arts at A&M, instead of being off in the corner like it is now in the College of Liberal Arts.
The journalism degree was brought back several years ago, but most people don't realize it. Like performing arts, it gets lost in the numerous degrees within the College of Liberal Arts. Hopefully a change like this can help rejuvenate it and bring it into the modern age. We need good, honest, Aggies in the media at all levels. Now more than ever. Seems like a partnership with TexAgs and the SECN would have some potential as well.
I never understood why political science was separate from the Bush School. They were even in the same building. Never made sense. Merging them into the Bush School seems logical.
Overall I think the effort to elevate programs that have potential could be a huge positive for the university and rejuvenate some colleges/programs that need to adapt more to today's world of education and digital technology.
Change is never easy. But there are several stagnate programs that could use some of it.
My original post was nuked by staff because I quoted a post that was first nuked.
My takeaway from the report is that in many instances the consultants were influenced by the client, and repeated in their report things they heard the client say, rather than give an objective outlook.
This is not evident in the recommendation to combine Liberal Arts, Geosciences, and Science. There are a number of schools who do that successfully. We could too with time, but I would not want to be the first dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. I do not think it will be a happy merger.
The real evidence is in a number of the smaller recommendations. The consultants have not done enough research to see how their suggestions would actually play out when implemented. I could list numerous issues here, but I'd rather list them at the comment web site, and I don't want anyone connecting the dots...
My takeaway from the report is that in many instances the consultants were influenced by the client, and repeated in their report things they heard the client say, rather than give an objective outlook.
This is not evident in the recommendation to combine Liberal Arts, Geosciences, and Science. There are a number of schools who do that successfully. We could too with time, but I would not want to be the first dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. I do not think it will be a happy merger.
The real evidence is in a number of the smaller recommendations. The consultants have not done enough research to see how their suggestions would actually play out when implemented. I could list numerous issues here, but I'd rather list them at the comment web site, and I don't want anyone connecting the dots...
lost my dog said:
My takeaway from the report is that in many instances the consultants were influenced by the client, and repeated in their report things they heard the client say, rather than give an objective outlook.
Yeah this is obvious. Everyone I know that has worked with Banks knows that she is very authoritarian/micro-manager/her-way-or-the-highway textbook dictator. So it's really no surprise that the major theme from this study was "centralize everything and bring it more under the power of the president and even further away from the colleges and their deans or the provost." This company that got paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for this study definitely knew what she wanted. There have been audits and other studies done in years past under different administrations that called for the complete opposite (more decentralization), for the most part these companies are just trying to please the person writing their check. The "study" gives them cover when they start implementing their changes.
A good summary and in line with what a lot I've heard as well.
Looking around the country and seeing that liberal arts and natural sciences are combined in many universities says a lot more about history than about whether it's the best model going forward. The University of Michigan for example was founded in 1817, and I'd bet that the natural sciences have been housed in the same unit (whatever that has meant over time) as the humanities for most or all of that time. Kind of hearkens back to the days when science was viewed as "natural philosophy" or some such. So there a College of Arts and Sciences has a long history. Arguing that other universities have "done" this really doesn't make much sense, unless you can point to them having combined pre-existing and long-standing separate colleges in the modern era. That's what is being proposed here, not maintaining a structure that's been around in some form for a hundred years or two.Gigem314 said:I think we're more likely to cut the dead weight by creating a College of Arts & Sciences. They referenced the University of Michigan and the University of Florida as elite institutions that have done this. I think it makes sense.Slagathor said:
Not a fan at all of the first recommendation, to combine College of Geoscience, College of Science, and College of Liberal Arts into one big "College of Arts & Sciences". It detracts from the value of each college, and indicates to prospective students that A&M doesn't do arts or sciences particularly well if they are just lumped together. Bigger does not always equal better in a large school that boasts a "small school" feel.
I'm also not sure that much dead weight will be cut, administratively speaking. Look at UM's org chart for that college, and you'll see that they have a dean, plus associate deans for each of the subareas (natural sciences, etc.). So you're basically going to take the existing deans and stick an expensive super-dean over all of them.
Quote:
So you're basically going to take the existing deans and stick an expensive super-dean over all of them.
I wonder how that would work. There is no search commissioned for a new Dean of Liberal Arts, so presumably when the reshuffling takes place, the Interim Dean will return to his department, and that deanship will be eliminated.
How many other (if any) situations like this I don't know, but it seems overall there will be fewer deans.
FlyRod said:Quote:
So you're basically going to take the existing deans and stick an expensive super-dean over all of them.
I wonder how that would work. There is no search commissioned for a new Dean of Liberal Arts, so presumably when the reshuffling takes place, the Interim Dean will return to his department, and that deanship will be eliminated.
How many other (if any) situations like this I don't know, but it seems overall there will be fewer deans.
Same situation in the College of Education right now too
Glad someone else has noticed this. I said essentially the same thing when it was announced that she's become the president. She has some die-hards working directly for her that will speak up about how great she is, but she never cared about the rest of the staff when she came out to the departments. Completely different attitude towards staff vs the faculty and students.althormoon said:
Yeah this is obvious. Everyone I know that has worked with Banks knows that she is very authoritarian/micro-manager/her-way-or-the-highway textbook dictator.
We were told weeks ago that dean searches will not begin until the new provost is in place and that the provost search wouldn't begin until after the report came out. There are multiple colleges without deans right now.
Right now we have three deans (one each for science, geo, and liberal arts). If we move to having a liberal arts and sciences college, we'll have one dean for the whole college, plus associate deans for each of science, geo, liberal arts, and possibly also visual and performing arts if that gets thrown in (probably; there are different ways to organize that). SeeFlyRod said:Quote:
So you're basically going to take the existing deans and stick an expensive super-dean over all of them.
I wonder how that would work. There is no search commissioned for a new Dean of Liberal Arts, so presumably when the reshuffling takes place, the Interim Dean will return to his department, and that deanship will be eliminated.
How many other (if any) situations like this I don't know, but it seems overall there will be fewer deans.
https://lsa.umich.edu/content/dam/lsa-site-assets/documents/office-of-dean/org-charts/Deans%20Office%20Org%20Chart%20draft%2009152021.pdf
It may be possible to eliminate other redundancies, but at the top level you're starting out by adding administrators, not eliminating them.
Roman General Petronius Arbiter once said (and I paraphrase) "we occasionally reorganized to give the illusion we were making progress" .
One can make a great living doing this...
One can make a great living doing this...
scs01 said:Looking around the country and seeing that liberal arts and natural sciences are combined in many universities says a lot more about history than about whether it's the best model going forward. The University of Michigan for example was founded in 1817, and I'd bet that the natural sciences have been housed in the same unit (whatever that has meant over time) as the humanities for most or all of that time. Kind of hearkens back to the days when science was viewed as "natural philosophy" or some such. So there a College of Arts and Sciences has a long history. Arguing that other universities have "done" this really doesn't make much sense, unless you can point to them having combined pre-existing and long-standing separate colleges in the modern era. That's what is being proposed here, not maintaining a structure that's been around in some form for a hundred years or two.Gigem314 said:I think we're more likely to cut the dead weight by creating a College of Arts & Sciences. They referenced the University of Michigan and the University of Florida as elite institutions that have done this. I think it makes sense.Slagathor said:
Not a fan at all of the first recommendation, to combine College of Geoscience, College of Science, and College of Liberal Arts into one big "College of Arts & Sciences". It detracts from the value of each college, and indicates to prospective students that A&M doesn't do arts or sciences particularly well if they are just lumped together. Bigger does not always equal better in a large school that boasts a "small school" feel.
I'm also not sure that much dead weight will be cut, administratively speaking. Look at UM's org chart for that college, and you'll see that they have a dean, plus associate deans for each of the subareas (natural sciences, etc.). So you're basically going to take the existing deans and stick an expensive super-dean over all of them.
The term is "Executive Dean," I think.
I read the whole report. Two thoughts. First, it calls for the creation of a Fine Arts Department, not a fan of the idea. Second, too many times to count it uses the phrase "peer institutions" have so and so as a justification for making the recommendation. In other words, everyone else is doing it, so we should too. Robert Gates, former A&M President calls A&M a "unique American Institution". Why aren't we envisioning a university that everyone else emulates rather than trying to be like everyone else? Not that there aren't some good ideas in there, but the rationale of doing things because everyone else is doing them reminds me of my childhood when my parents said, "If everyone else jumped off a cliff does that mean you should too?"
What uniqueness would be lost if the report's recommendations go through?
And would that loss of uniqueness be exceptional compared to how TAMU has changed in the past (or at least since Earl Rudder)?
And would that loss of uniqueness be exceptional compared to how TAMU has changed in the past (or at least since Earl Rudder)?