lost my dog said:

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cavscout96 said:

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FlyRod said:

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That last sentence rings true. Lots of discussion I'm hearing about what the options are if non-compliance occurs. Most likely one seems to be, the class will just be cancelled, assuming the students not wearing masks don't agree to leave voluntarily. It won't be a police or security issue.

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sounds like a suit waiting to happen. Folks are shelling out a lot of cabbage for an "education."

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Sounds like a lot of wasted money on lawyers. TAMU imposed PPE requirements for labs for many years before this. No one ever suited for being forced to wear goggles in chem lab. If you can mandate it in lab, you can mandate it in a lecture, especially if students who do not wish to wear a mask can take the course online (which they will be able to do.)

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you missed the point. What about the compliant folks whose instruction is cancelled without notice because another chooses not to comply?

lost my dog said:

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agrab86 said:

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oldyeller said:

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Txmoe said:

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The State of Texas and the A&M System have both come out and said that masks are recommended but not required. My questions are whether Young can impose a policy that is more restrictive than his two governing bodies, and whether it is enforceable.

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The enforcement will likely come from the statement that everyone who took the mandatory TrainTraq had to agree to before completing the training. As a condition of returning to work one had to agree to a number of actions intended to cut contagion risk, e.g. a self-diagnostic symptoms check each day before going on campus, with dismissal as a possible consequence of noncompliance. if you signed off on that, but refuse to abide by the facemask policy, the university can use the threat of dismissal to enforce compliance. The agreement to abide by TAMU policies would likely allow for more restrictive workplace PPE as mandated by the employer, would it not?

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I don't know the answer to your question. However, there are many of non-TAMU employees on campus who are employed by other parts of the TAMUS who are subject to TAMUS policies as opposed to TAMU policies. And many of those differ.

But Young's order isn't an employee order, it's an order that applies to anyone in any campus building or any outside area where distancing is not possible. There are no civil or criminal penalties that accompany this policy, nor can there be, so TAMU police won't be enforcing it. The only actual recourse for a non-face-coverer is a request they leave the building/area, and threats to personnel and those businesses that have contracts with TAMU. Won't be able to enforce it on students or other visitors, and the whole thing comes unraveled on Aug 19 - first day of fall classes.

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If you think Sharp isn't on-board with Young's email, and hence system people are going to be exempt from this on main campus, I think you're wrong. I won't speak to what will happen at Tarleton State (for example.) But I don't foresee TTI or TEEX people walking around the MSC getting a pass on wearing a mask because they're "system people"

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My point was the Young order is not an employee mandate, not even for TAMU employees. It's an anyone on campus mandate for which they really have leverage over TAMU staff and those businesses with contracts. You can't kick students out of class en masse, and cancelling class when there are compliant students is a problem. And profs want to teach, not police.

To your example, Say a TEEX person, or a student, or a visitor, or even a TAMU employee, walks into the MSC and is told to put on their mask and that person says no. What are your options? What is your name? No answer. Who do you work for? No answer. Etc. Cops won't get involved. Unless the person asking knows everyone on campus and their role, what recourse is there? I'm not advocating this type of behavior- my choice will be to not go to the MSC or anywhere inside on campus except to my office - it's called distancing which I support. Others may not take the same approach.

lost my dog said:

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cavscout96 said:

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lost my dog said:

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cavscout96 said:

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FlyRod said:

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That last sentence rings true. Lots of discussion I'm hearing about what the options are if non-compliance occurs. Most likely one seems to be, the class will just be cancelled, assuming the students not wearing masks don't agree to leave voluntarily. It won't be a police or security issue.

---

sounds like a suit waiting to happen. Folks are shelling out a lot of cabbage for an "education."

---

Sounds like a lot of wasted money on lawyers. TAMU imposed PPE requirements for labs for many years before this. No one ever suited for being forced to wear goggles in chem lab. If you can mandate it in lab, you can mandate it in a lecture, especially if students who do not wish to wear a mask can take the course online (which they will be able to do.)

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you missed the point. What about the compliant folks whose instruction is cancelled without notice because another chooses not to comply?

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With all due respect to FlyRod, I don't think he/she gets how it can be enforced.

You put in the syllabus - "Wearing a face mask during class time is mandatory. This is required per SAP 34.99.99.M0.03. Accommodations can be made per 34.99.99.M0.03.4 Exceptions to the Procedure. Please consult with your instructor for exceptions.

There are 42 meeting of this class (14 weeks MWF). In each class meeting if you follow the TAMU masking rule, you will get X points (in an attendance grade.) If you do not follow the rule, you will receive a zero for the attendance grade.

Please note that this attendance grade makes up a sufficient portion of your grade that you cannot receive and A (B depending on how mean the prof is) without fulfilling it."

I am sure that there will be some students who will sacrifice their grade for their principles. I am also sure that the majority will see the light and wear a mask.

And yes, profs can do this. Especially if the online option for non-mask wearers is available

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Technically true, but the rub is where a student actually attends class but is not awarded points since he/she failed to wear a mask. Taken to it's logical conclusion, the University could, in theory, mandate that everyone wears purple polka dot dresses to class as long as they put it in a SAP. If Joe wears a green striped jumpsuit, and the prof refuses to give him credit for attendance.......

I've seen in other states where they are going to fine the businesses $500 if they have a employee or customer without a mask - so it is up to the business to enforce it.

agrab86 said:

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lost my dog said:

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agrab86 said:

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I don't know the answer to your question. However, there are many of non-TAMU employees on campus who are employed by other parts of the TAMUS who are subject to TAMUS policies as opposed to TAMU policies. And many of those differ.

But Young's order isn't an employee order, it's an order that applies to anyone in any campus building or any outside area where distancing is not possible. There are no civil or criminal penalties that accompany this policy, nor can there be, so TAMU police won't be enforcing it. The only actual recourse for a non-face-coverer is a request they leave the building/area, and threats to personnel and those businesses that have contracts with TAMU. Won't be able to enforce it on students or other visitors, and the whole thing comes unraveled on Aug 19 - first day of fall classes.

---

If you think Sharp isn't on-board with Young's email, and hence system people are going to be exempt from this on main campus, I think you're wrong. I won't speak to what will happen at Tarleton State (for example.) But I don't foresee TTI or TEEX people walking around the MSC getting a pass on wearing a mask because they're "system people"

---

My point was the Young order is not an employee mandate, not even for TAMU employees. It's an anyone on campus mandate for which they really have leverage over TAMU staff and those businesses with contracts. You can't kick students out of class en masse, and cancelling class when there are compliant students is a problem. And profs want to teach, not police.

To your example, Say a TEEX person, or a student, or a visitor, or even a TAMU employee, walks into the MSC and is told to put on their mask and that person says no. What are your options? What is your name? No answer. Who do you work for? No answer. Etc. Cops won't get involved. Unless the person asking knows everyone on campus and their role, what recourse is there? I'm not advocating this type of behavior- my choice will be to not go to the MSC or anywhere inside on campus except to my office - it's called distancing which I support. Others may not take the same approach.

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Who says you can't kick students out of class for violating University rules? You aren't allowed into labs of most courses without PPE, and that's a syllabus requirement, not a University rule. But honestly, I think some of you think the students are going to protest this like it's the 60's and kids were getting drafted for Vietnam. I think this will not be a big deal for them, especially if the University were to provide free masks at the classroom door for those students who forgot their mask. I think the students will be so glad just to be back in the classroom they won't sweat the mask rule.

You are right that there is no way to force visitors to wear a mask on campus, other than to ask them to leave. But there is also no way to force a visitor to take off his/her hat in the MSC; cops won't arrest you for that either. People take their hat off at the MSC because it's considered the socially correct thing to do. We all do certain things not from threat of law, but because of social expectations. You wouldn't walk into campus buildings wearing nothing but your underwear, would you?

(Just a point of info - students can't refuse to identify themselves to University employees - student rule 1.1.2)

cavscout96 said:

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lost my dog said:

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cavscout96 said:

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lost my dog said:

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cavscout96 said:

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FlyRod said:

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That last sentence rings true. Lots of discussion I'm hearing about what the options are if non-compliance occurs. Most likely one seems to be, the class will just be cancelled, assuming the students not wearing masks don't agree to leave voluntarily. It won't be a police or security issue.

---

sounds like a suit waiting to happen. Folks are shelling out a lot of cabbage for an "education."

---

Sounds like a lot of wasted money on lawyers. TAMU imposed PPE requirements for labs for many years before this. No one ever suited for being forced to wear goggles in chem lab. If you can mandate it in lab, you can mandate it in a lecture, especially if students who do not wish to wear a mask can take the course online (which they will be able to do.)

---

you missed the point. What about the compliant folks whose instruction is cancelled without notice because another chooses not to comply?

---

With all due respect to FlyRod, I don't think he/she gets how it can be enforced.

You put in the syllabus - "Wearing a face mask during class time is mandatory. This is required per SAP 34.99.99.M0.03. Accommodations can be made per 34.99.99.M0.03.4 Exceptions to the Procedure. Please consult with your instructor for exceptions.

There are 42 meeting of this class (14 weeks MWF). In each class meeting if you follow the TAMU masking rule, you will get X points (in an attendance grade.) If you do not follow the rule, you will receive a zero for the attendance grade.

Please note that this attendance grade makes up a sufficient portion of your grade that you cannot receive and A (B depending on how mean the prof is) without fulfilling it."

I am sure that there will be some students who will sacrifice their grade for their principles. I am also sure that the majority will see the light and wear a mask.

And yes, profs can do this. Especially if the online option for non-mask wearers is available

---

Technically true, but the rub is where a student actually attends class but is not awarded points since he/she failed to wear a mask. Taken to it's logical conclusion, the University could, in theory, mandate that everyone wears purple polka dot dresses to class as long as they put it in a SAP. If Joe wears a green striped jumpsuit, and the prof refuses to give him credit for attendance.......

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Well, it's already true that if you wear burnt orange in some classrooms, you will fail the course...

Quote:

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think the students will be so glad just to be back in the classroom they won't sweat the mask rule.

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Agreed. A small price to pay to avoid a return to online instruction, or worse, a sick/dead instructor and a terminated class.

Quote:

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you wouldn't walk into campus buildings wearing nothing but your underwear, would you?

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Why, what have you heard? Undergrad was a long time ago. No, not anymore - you're all welcome.

I've seen students come to class in PJs...underwear can't be far off.

lost my dog said:

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Who says you can't kick students out of class for violating University rules? You aren't allowed into labs of most courses without PPE, and that's a syllabus requirement, not a University rule. But honestly, I think some of you think the students are going to protest this like it's the 60's and kids were getting drafted for Vietnam. I think this will not be a big deal for them, especially if the University were to provide free masks at the classroom door for those students who forgot their mask. I think the students will be so glad just to be back in the classroom they won't sweat the mask rule.

You are right that there is no way to force visitors to wear a mask on campus, other than to ask them to leave. But there is also no way to force a visitor to take off his/her hat in the MSC; cops won't arrest you for that either. People take their hat off at the MSC because it's considered the socially correct thing to do. We all do certain things not from threat of law, but because of social expectations. You wouldn't walk into campus buildings wearing nothing but your underwear, would you?

(Just a point of info - students can't refuse to identify themselves to University employees - student rule 1.1.2)

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I agree. They will be, largely, compliant.

-------------

When was the last time you were on campus when classes were in session? Or at FB tailgates..... Or Ring Day.....

you might be shocked was to how much folks don't wear

lost my dog said:

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agrab86 said:

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lost my dog said:

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agrab86 said:

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I don't know the answer to your question. However, there are many of non-TAMU employees on campus who are employed by other parts of the TAMUS who are subject to TAMUS policies as opposed to TAMU policies. And many of those differ.

But Young's order isn't an employee order, it's an order that applies to anyone in any campus building or any outside area where distancing is not possible. There are no civil or criminal penalties that accompany this policy, nor can there be, so TAMU police won't be enforcing it. The only actual recourse for a non-face-coverer is a request they leave the building/area, and threats to personnel and those businesses that have contracts with TAMU. Won't be able to enforce it on students or other visitors, and the whole thing comes unraveled on Aug 19 - first day of fall classes.

---

If you think Sharp isn't on-board with Young's email, and hence system people are going to be exempt from this on main campus, I think you're wrong. I won't speak to what will happen at Tarleton State (for example.) But I don't foresee TTI or TEEX people walking around the MSC getting a pass on wearing a mask because they're "system people"

---

My point was the Young order is not an employee mandate, not even for TAMU employees. It's an anyone on campus mandate for which they really have leverage over TAMU staff and those businesses with contracts. You can't kick students out of class en masse, and cancelling class when there are compliant students is a problem. And profs want to teach, not police.

To your example, Say a TEEX person, or a student, or a visitor, or even a TAMU employee, walks into the MSC and is told to put on their mask and that person says no. What are your options? What is your name? No answer. Who do you work for? No answer. Etc. Cops won't get involved. Unless the person asking knows everyone on campus and their role, what recourse is there? I'm not advocating this type of behavior- my choice will be to not go to the MSC or anywhere inside on campus except to my office - it's called distancing which I support. Others may not take the same approach.

---

(Just a point of info - students can't refuse to identify themselves to University employees - student rule 1.1.2)

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Not being allowed is much different than being not being able.

MaroonBloodedAg2010 said:

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It's not hard to get a doctor to write a note to say that you shouldn't be wearing a mask, bypassing TAMU's policy.

I hope the governor comes out and shuts down these idiotic rules. I guess if College Station passes their ordinance, I'll only be shopping in Bryan or online.

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This is the route I'll probably take if this foolishness continues into the fall. Smile at everybody and keep that note in my pocket to thrust in the face of any Karen yelling at me to put a mask on.

Quote:

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Thursday night CS City Council will vote to require masks in all businesses, y'all aren't going to be happy on Friday.

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There will be a discussion, but no vote.

From KBTX: https://www.kbtx.com/2020/06/23/nearly-half-of-recent-covid-19-cases-in-brazos-county-are-18-24-year-olds/
"College Station Mayor Karl Mooney said he was more open to having a hearing from others about the idea of mandating businesses to require employees and customers to wear masks. The matter will be discussed further at Thursday's city council meeting, but no formal action is expected. "

tb9665 said:

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Is it really that hard to wear a mask for the little amount of time people are in a retail store? How would you feel if you worked in retail for 8+ hours a day and were around people that did not have masks on? Considering a mask is to stop you from spreading germs. Why do you think surgeons wear them when during surgeries? What if you had a 16 year old and the only first job that they could get was in retail?

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Farm?
Construction?
Multitude of other options?

I thought this thread was about masks at TAMU, not about local businesses, or techno's convictions. Or have we beat the A&M and mask issue to death by now?

lost my dog said:

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I thought this thread was about masks at TAMU, not about local businesses, or techno's convictions. Or have we beat the A&M and mask issue to death by now?

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Tangential but related in the additional time spent for GP/HCP and TAMU in handling as there are students, faculty, and staff with legitimate issues.

lost my dog said:

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I thought this thread was about masks at TAMU, not about local businesses, or techno's convictions. Or have we beat the A&M and mask issue to death by now?

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No, not all the way. The Eagle entering deeper into the fray today with this article:

https://www.theeagle.com/news/state-and-regional/texas-biggest-public-universities-will-require-masks-this-fall-enforcement-will-be-a-challenge/article_116e04aa-6432-5ace-a5db-4a106ccd2247.html

MaroonBloodedAg2010 said:

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It's not hard to get a doctor to write a note to say that you shouldn't be wearing a mask, bypassing TAMU's policy.

I hope the governor comes out and shuts down these idiotic rules. I guess if College Station passes their ordinance, I'll only be shopping in Bryan or online.

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A doctor's note isn't a "get out of jail free" card, it simply means that reasonable accommodation must be provided. In the case of students, they already are putting in place cameras for remotely joining the class, so I would imagine the response will be to join remotely if one's physician states you cannot wear a mask in the classroom. Providing accommodation for employees who have a doctor' note may be trickier, but not impossible. So I'm not seeing where a note is going to allow one to smugly thumb their nose at the policy.

aggiepaintrain said:

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Thursday night CS City Council will vote to require masks in all businesses, y'all aren't going to be happy on Friday.

Poor snowflakes and their parents will have to wear a mask

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For more inside info, follow me on twitter

https://www.kbtx.com/2020/06/26/college-station-mayor-could-soon-sign-emergency-order-requiring-face-masks/

I still see some areas not following the mask policy. Maybe a reminder should be sent out agian.