FM 2818 and the "Super Street" corridor

5,821 Views | 33 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by etmydst
PS3D
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I don't know how I missed this. Why on earth is it soon going to be impossible to be able to go straight across Holleman (or George Bush) or turn left from it?

https://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/studies/bryan/fm2818.html
threecatcorner
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It sounded like they have this design pretty much set, but there is a survey.

https://fm2818.metroquest.com

They are supposed to start the project December 2019, and their site says it should take 18 months. Expect a total nightmare during that timeframe.

I briefly saw the large printouts they had of the "super street" plan and think it looks confusing. Someone from A&M's police department was telling them that they will need to have plenty of signage to tell people in advance if they are going to need to get into a different lane.
helloag99
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I thought superstreets was such a failure in Austin that txdot gave up on it.
Kitten With A Whip
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Oh, yay. Bicycle and pedestrian lanes will be a feature.
LOYAL AG
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AG
Got to think this isn't necessary if COCS does what it should have several years ago and extends the Wellborn overpass to cover Holleman. hey but at least our library matches our entrance signs.

What issues will this cause on game day with no left turn off of Bush onto 2818? That's a major means of traffic egress from campus. So basically they are going to take all that traffic and force it to turn right then force it to do that uturn. I guess that'll work out fine.
cslifer
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It is a TXDot project, not city.
Flatlander
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Estimated cost of the project is over $34 million. Seems like a lot of money to spend and not even get a grade separation.
HortAg09
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AG
Sounds like College Station is turning into New Jersey!
FlyRod
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The current arrangement is a cluster. Looking forward to the new (and overdue) improvements.
Stucco
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I only go straight in this segment so it will only help me, but I feel for the folks that cross at the lights. I think at least one overpass at holleman would be reasonable.
Expert Analysis
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AG
https://www.txdot.gov/inside-txdot/projects/studies/bryan/fm2818.html
Here is all the project information. There are simulations showing traffic flow. The design in the simulations are not quite the same design in the schematic that is provided, but the general layout is the same. Im not sure the traffic volumes are accurate either since the survey indicates a value about 10k less than what TxDOT has on their website...

COCS should not have balked when the 2818/Wellborn project was conducted. The Holleman nightmare is a result of their poor planning and unwillingness to work with TxDOT.

To grade separate Holleman and 2818 would add around 10 mil (rough guess) to the project and make it take way longer. I'm not sure why they cannot just redo the jones butler area to what should have been done in the first place 7 or 8 years ago.

Game day traffic should flow better and allow for less opportunities for idiots to drive around traffic control and make unpermitted turns.
sornman
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Yay! Lets double the traffic lights on 2818 so we can have U turns. That sounds great!
ratfacemcdougal
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Did not count....however, this program looks like an awful lot of added stop lights. And I am guessing those lights will NOT be synchronized, so not matter where you are, you will have to stop at EVERY light on your journey.
PS3D
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HortAg09 said:

Sounds like College Station is turning into New Jersey!
In terms of traffic circles or just generally being awful?

(I will accept "Both" as an answer).
agnerd
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AG
Build standard intersections so that when they eventually run a freeway down the middle they won't have to tear anything up! I know it's a new concept, but let's at least TRY to plan for the future and see if that works out...
LOYAL AG
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AG
cslifer said:

It is a TXDot project, not city.


I know that. When the overpass for 2818 over Wellborn was put in apparently TxDOT offered to extend it to beyond Holleman if the city would cover $2m of the cost and the city declined crating this Charlie Foxtrot.
Chris98
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AG
Isn't this the same design as 281 North of SA (Canyon Springs area)? That area is a complete cluster. They need to just build feeder roads, for future freeway, with grade separations as needed (similar to 40 & 47)
TexasAggie_02
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AG
lol, so to turn left onto 2818 from George bush, you have to:
  • Sit at red light
  • Turn RIGHT
  • get into the two left most lanes
  • Sit at another red light
  • Turn Left
  • Hit the red light at George Bush intersection again
  • continue on your way

They tripled the number of red lights required for a left turn.
biobioprof
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TexasAggie_02 said:

lol, so to turn left onto 2818 from George bush, you have to:
  • Sit at red light
  • Turn RIGHT
  • get into the two left most lanes
  • Sit at another red light
  • Turn Left
  • Hit the red light at George Bush intersection again
  • continue on your way

They tripled the number of red lights required for a left turn.
Whether that's bad depends on how many light cycles you would be creeping forward through in a regular intersection.
ChoppinDs40
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AG
Cowtown way of handling one of the most busy roads in a city/cities of half a million people.

CS city council at it again. Face it, morons on the city board - the city is growing at a break neck pace.
Ornlu
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AG
agnerd said:

Build standard intersections so that when they eventually run a freeway down the middle they won't have to tear anything up! I know it's a new concept, but let's at least TRY to plan for the future and see if that works out...


No, build the actual FREEWAY! It's time for this section to go full freeway, with overpasses, access roads, off ramps, etc. The traffic volumes are high enough, the crash statistics are bad enough, and the money is there. TXDOT will need to supplement (okay, triple...) their current t budget, but it's needed.

If TXDOT drops $36M on this, this section will never become a real freeway. Better to get nothing now, and a real freeway later, then a partial solution that will preclude us frI'm fixing 2818.
PS3D
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There was a Super Street intersection in Austin (near 45 and 71) that only existed for three years before it was torn up again for a freeway with a traditional interchange (two stoplights on the frontage road, turnaround lanes). But sticking with super streets for three years still sounds miserable. They should do continuous flow intersections since that doesn't waste the huge right of way they have and you can still go straight across Holleman.
BQ_90
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AG
Since when did Levy get into traffic planning business.
Expert Analysis
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The problem with a freeway design is the spacing out there. Luther would not have full access and holleman area is messed up with thr crap they did with jones butler. Jones butler needed to be graded seperated instead of closed and or desiged with a freeway plan for the future.
Rexter
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It seems like the best option would be to raise 2818 on a berm, bridge over Holleman, then go under Luther and over Bush. The Luther intersection is already on a small knoll, and the dirt from going under could be used to raise 2818. If 2818 was moved to freeway design, the feeders could butt up against the road with a concrete wall and it wouldn't require a lot of right-of-way.

The left turns could be // design so both sides go at the same time. This design is in use in Clearwater FL, and it moves traffic pretty quickly.

It seems like that would be a lot better than the impending cluster.
AggiePhil
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PS3D said:

There was a Super Street intersection in Austin (near 45 and 71) that only existed for three years before it was torn up again for a freeway with a traditional interchange...

How on earth do you keep up with this stuff?
FlyRod
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etmydst
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AG
Ornlu said:

agnerd said:

Build standard intersections so that when they eventually run a freeway down the middle they won't have to tear anything up! I know it's a new concept, but let's at least TRY to plan for the future and see if that works out...


No, build the actual FREEWAY! It's time for this section to go full freeway, with overpasses, access roads, off ramps, etc. The traffic volumes are high enough, the crash statistics are bad enough, and the money is there. TXDOT will need to supplement (okay, triple...) their current t budget, but it's needed.

If TXDOT drops $36M on this, this section will never become a real freeway. Better to get nothing now, and a real freeway later, then a partial solution that will preclude us frI'm fixing 2818.

I guess none of you attended the public meeting.

The proposed design is building the access roads for a future freeway section now. As a result, it will require minimal tear out if/when a freeway with overpasses is built along this corridor. The cost to build a full freeway section today would be over $60M.

If the corridor were just widened with raised medians and standard traffic signals, it would all have to be torn out to build a freeway in the future. The traffic study showed that standard design would be at capacity 10 years from the time construction is complete. I think they said the super street concept will not be at capacity for at least 25 years.

I read the links within the links that others have posted and think the super street concept makes sense. If there are fewer traffic signal cycles, resulting in longer green lights, it seems reasonable that more traffic can flow through the intersections. Also, is it really that big of a deal to drive a few hundred feet further to take a left by way of a U-turn if you spend less time overall than sitting and waiting for the lights to change?

Sounds like most you that are writing off the concept haven't even spent any time to try and understand it. Sounds like it accomplishes everything that is typically complained about in this forum - planning for now and the future, efficient use of tax payer dollars ($36M vs. $60M), addressing known congestion and safety issues.
PS3D
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AggiePhil said:

PS3D said:

There was a Super Street intersection in Austin (near 45 and 71) that only existed for three years before it was torn up again for a freeway with a traditional interchange...

How on earth do you keep up with this stuff?
I stumbled across it on Google Earth while trying to keep up the freeway construction there. I'm not sure if it was intended to be "temporary". They added permanent stoplight structures, concrete medians, repaved roads with fresh striping, and all that came and went in a period of less than four years.
techno-ag
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AG
PS3D said:

AggiePhil said:

PS3D said:

There was a Super Street intersection in Austin (near 45 and 71) that only existed for three years before it was torn up again for a freeway with a traditional interchange...

How on earth do you keep up with this stuff?
I stumbled across it on Google Earth while trying to keep up the freeway construction there. I'm not sure if it was intended to be "temporary". They added permanent stoplight structures, concrete medians, repaved roads with fresh striping, and all that came and went in a period of less than four years.
Austin has a long history of poor infrastructure decisions.
BQ_90
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AG
etmydst said:

Ornlu said:

agnerd said:

Build standard intersections so that when they eventually run a freeway down the middle they won't have to tear anything up! I know it's a new concept, but let's at least TRY to plan for the future and see if that works out...


No, build the actual FREEWAY! It's time for this section to go full freeway, with overpasses, access roads, off ramps, etc. The traffic volumes are high enough, the crash statistics are bad enough, and the money is there. TXDOT will need to supplement (okay, triple...) their current t budget, but it's needed.

If TXDOT drops $36M on this, this section will never become a real freeway. Better to get nothing now, and a real freeway later, then a partial solution that will preclude us frI'm fixing 2818.

I guess none of you attended the public meeting.

The proposed design is building the access roads for a future freeway section now. As a result, it will require minimal tear out if/when a freeway with overpasses is built along this corridor. The cost to build a full freeway section today would be over $60M.

If the corridor were just widened with raised medians and standard traffic signals, it would all have to be torn out to build a freeway in the future. The traffic study showed that standard design would be at capacity 10 years from the time construction is complete. I think they said the super street concept will not be at capacity for at least 25 years.

I read the links within the links that others have posted and think the super street concept makes sense. If there are fewer traffic signal cycles, resulting in longer green lights, it seems reasonable that more traffic can flow through the intersections. Also, is it really that big of a deal to drive a few hundred feet further to take a left by way of a U-turn if you spend less time overall than sitting and waiting for the lights to change?

Sounds like most you that are writing off the concept haven't even spent any time to try and understand it. Sounds like it accomplishes everything that is typically complained about in this forum - planning for now and the future, efficient use of tax payer dollars ($36M vs. $60M), addressing known congestion and safety issues.
So you're stating this will work with longer green light cycles? Do,you drive in this town? Because syncing up lights is the worst thing about traffic in this town. So this plan is based on going thru three lights to make a left turn and were to expect that more lights will make it faster?

If this,plan is so much better then why didn't they do it at Ville Marie intersection?
AggieBarstool
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FlyRod said:

The current arrangement is a cluster. Looking forward to the new (and overdue) improvements.
+1

Why anyone is opposed to something that improves the current situation is beyond me. 2818 for that 3.2 mile stretch is a cluster that I avoid at all costs. The simulations make it look passable, at worst.
Ornlu
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AG
Quote:

Why anyone is opposed to something that improves the current situation is beyond me. 2818 for that 3.2 mile stretch is a cluster that I avoid at all costs. The simulations make it look passable, at worst.

Yes, this is a mild-to-moderate improvement on the SNAFU that is 2818. However: due to the politics around here, it's not "spend a little money on this, and then in a few years we'll spend more money on a freeway". It's more like "well we just spent money on all those signals. We can't justify tearing that all out for a freeway for at least 25, maybe 30 years".

It's cheaper to build a freeway now that it will be in 25 years. Unfortunately, this project means that 2818 will never be a freeway. Not for any physical obstruction, but because of TxDOT's politics.

sornman
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I don't think the issue is TxDOT, look at the city as for the people making poor decisions.
etmydst
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AG
I don't quite follow how what you describe is politics. Seems like smart money management to me.

If you feel that strongly about the need for a freeway, I suggest you contact the BCS MPO and recommend they allocate the additional $25M+/- required for a freeway by using the funds they currently have allocated for the SH 6 widening or Wellborn Rd. widening projects they have planned.
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