Our 30 year old Trane unit is finally going to the graveyard. I am needing an expert to comment on these two bids.

new Trane 16.25 SEER two speed heat pump system (MD# 4TWX8060H1000 heat pump condenser and MD# TEM6AOC60HS1S Air Handler)....... $13,403.00

or

new Bosch 19.00 SEER Variable Speed heat pump system (MD# BOVA-60HDN1-M20G heat pump condenser and MD# BVA-60WN1-M20 air handler)..... $12,0723.00

The price is so close that it is not important. I am mostly looking for comments comparing the SEER ratings vs using the Trane which has a long history, vs the Bosch which has a much shorter history.

Thanks in advance !

We put in a 2 stage Trane (XR17) last October and love it. While I definitely wasn't excited to have to spend the money, I couldn't be happier with the system. The house is much more comfortable now due to lower humidity and we can barely even tell it is running. If you're in the Houston area, I highly recommend Enviromax Services.

mneisch said:

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We put in a 2 stage Trane (XR17) last October and love it. While I definitely wasn't excited to have to spend the money, I couldn't be happier with the system. The house is much more comfortable now due to lower humidity and we can barely even tell it is running.

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I cannot comment on the Bosch, but my experience with the 2-stage Trane system is the same as this. Could not be happier with the system. Had it installed last spring and what a difference in made in the comfort of our home and was SO much more energy efficient than the dinosaur it replaced.

Just replaced upstairs and downstairs units with Trane, because I'm a huge Trane fan.

Seer rating is negligible in terms of energy savings on residential units.

Buy the one that's adequately sized for your space and has the best warranty or reliability rating.

Your savings will come from how you run it, now how it runs.

While I do t have a Bosch AC, I do have Bosch dishwasher, fridge and ovens. They're great!

But as a facility and energy manager, I say buy Trane or Goodman. Make sure you run smart thermostats and pick a temperature range of ~4* you're comfortable at and NEVER EVER TOUCH IT EVER AGAIN.

Goodman? Seriously?

Buddy who is a tech nerd just compared the two systems and went Boush. Take it for what is worth. He paid 9k

nortex97 said:

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Goodman? Seriously?

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Yes. When Daikin bought them they suffered in support and service for a while but they're back and doing just fine. For up to ~7.5 ton, they're good units.

Not a fan of my Bosch dishwasher. Euro dishwashers don't dry and I didn't realize that until after I installed it. I do think Bosch makes quality products in general though. I'm not sure about their A/C systems, must be a recent market entry.

jayelbee said:

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No comment on the Bosch, but I have a variable speed Trane and variable speed is the *****

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My folks put one of these in their new house and I can be standing next to it outside and barely tell it's running. It combined with foam insulation equals miniscule bills.

Yeah since Daikin purchased Goodman their quality has gone up. Goodman's past reputation still haunts them though.

Just another data point...my current system is a Trane and is 13 years old and I have to replace it now, was hoping to get 15-20 years out of it. In those 13 years, I've replaced the starting capacitor 4 times, and the thermal expansion valve once. Currently the condenser has a leak and needs replaced, which is literally half the cost of a new unit, so I'm biting the bullet. All that to say, my Trane has not been trouble free over the years.

But you can't stop a...

we replaced our 25 year old trane 5 years ago. did not think to ask about the coil just assumed erroneously it would be copper like the old one. Wrong. Aluminum not copper. so everything working great cooling great then started having problems keeping the house cool. seems the Al coil developed holes and lost Freon. well warranty covered the cost of the coil but not the labor. Trane supposedly fixed the problem and we got a new IMPROVED Al coil. never had a Bosch air conditioner and cannot comment on them.

2 5 ton variable apples comfortmaker carriers here.

Love em.

Only a year of experience with the Bosch BOVA but it does its job (in that we do not notice it). I like that it does not require a proprietary thermostat - the compressor adjusts to demand based on refrigerant pressure. The Trane should do better at dehumidification but i went the Cadillac route and put in a whole house dehumidifier as a separate item and run both with a Honeywell T10. My total system cost was still lower than the Trane variable.
Good luck. I am on the next stage, trying to leak seal this swiss cheese house.

Allen76 said:

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Our 30 year old Trane unit is finally going to the graveyard. I am needing an expert to comment on these two bids.

new Trane 16.25 SEER two speed heat pump system (MD# 4TWX8060H1000 heat pump condenser and MD# TEM6AOC60HS1S Air Handler)....... $13,403.00

or

new Bosch 19.00 SEER Variable Speed heat pump system (MD# BOVA-60HDN1-M20G heat pump condenser and MD# BVA-60WN1-M20 air handler)..... $12,0723.00

The price is so close that it is not important. I am mostly looking for comments comparing the SEER ratings vs using the Trane which has a long history, vs the Bosch which has a much shorter history.

Thanks in advance !

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You answered your own question with the first sentence. 30 years is a good run.

I'm gonna throw in a recommendation for lennox. I have one at my house that's about 25 years old and i needed a capacitor. Went to an hvac shop and mentioned to the dude how old my unit was and he acted surprised that a unit that old was still kicking. He asked me what kind it was and i told him lennox, he said "ah, that makes sense"

I own Enviromax Services and we are a TCS Trane dealer here in the Cypress/Houston area. If you are in this neck of the woods then please give us a call and we can come out to discuss the options. We have taken care of TONS of fellow Ags with their AC needs. Thanks in advance for the opportunity. 713-466-7555 is my office number and my mobile is 832-347-0807 Jim Wolf class of '88.

+1 for Enviromax. Good people

https://www.greenleafair.com/product-category/trane-hvac-system/


Paid 13k for a 5 and a 3.... installed!

aggieforester05 said:

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Not a fan of my Bosch dishwasher. Euro dishwashers don't dry and I didn't realize that until after I installed it. I do think Bosch makes quality products in general though. I'm not sure about their A/C systems, must be a recent market entry.

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Yeah ours came with the house so when it goes we'll be getting something else for sure. It IS quiet though... very very quiet.

Allen76 said:

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Our 30 year old Trane unit is finally going to the graveyard. I am needing an expert to comment on these two bids.

new Trane 16.25 SEER two speed heat pump system (MD# 4TWX8060H1000 heat pump condenser and MD# TEM6AOC60HS1S Air Handler)....... $13,403.00

or

new Bosch 19.00 SEER Variable Speed heat pump system (MD# BOVA-60HDN1-M20G heat pump condenser and MD# BVA-60WN1-M20 air handler)..... $12,0723.00

The price is so close that it is not important. I am mostly looking for comments comparing the SEER ratings vs using the Trane which has a long history, vs the Bosch which has a much shorter history.

Thanks in advance !

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Need to look at HSPF just as much as SEER with a heat pump. It's a rating for how well it does in the winter.

Also, you need to make sure you have a thermostat that is capable of taking advantage of multiple stages and variable speed air handlers to achieve the efficiency they're designed for. Not every thermostat is capable of varying the fan speed or staging the compressor. The wrist thing you can do is spend $12k-$13k on a system and cheap out on the thermostat.

Personally, I have a Trane XR17 and really like it. Haven't had it super long, but it's been great so far. Indoor and outdoor units are very quiet. Sometimes I don't even realize they're on. Our last Trane was original to the house and started to go downhill after 23 years.

V8Aggie said:

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Yeah since Daikin purchased Goodman their quality has gone up. Goodman's past reputation still haunts them though.

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I find most Japanese companies are quality minded and produce really good stuff. If you read The Toyota Way, it's an interesting look at how their company culture has been built on quality and process. Some of it is a cultural thing and being an island nation. Most things in Japan have to be really efficiently designed or constructed, and quality is a natural byproduct of efficiency.

Went with variable speed American standard. Which is equivalent to a Trane I believe. It was between that and a Carrier according to a buddy of mine in the AC business...

I've been in the Diakin facility in Waller, it's pretty amazing actually watching everything happen to build small window units to large industrial sized ones all in the same place.

Thanks for all of the replies. I am located near San Antonio.

Our 30 year old Trane was one of the first variable speed units outside and inside both. It had its problems but just about every problem was covered by warranty. The biggest thing was the Trane techs had to call the factory every visit to get help with the system.

I read an article about it in Popular Mechanics in either 1989 or 1990 and we ended up putting it in our new home in 1990 as one of the first variable speeds in a regular home in our area.

Look at Flo-Aire Mechanical if you're in SA. They specialize in Trane. I work for a GC and they do a lot of work for us. Also worked with their residential side and was very happy.

Regardless of equipment, if it's not installed well, it won't be good.

The exception to that is Goodman, it sucks regardless of install quality.

OnlyForNow said:

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I've been in the Diakin facility in Waller, it's pretty amazing actually watching everything happen to build small window units to large industrial sized ones all in the same place.

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If you can, you should check out the Toyota plant in San Antonio. I believe you have to schedule a tour and have a large enough group, but it's a really cool facility.

Another cool tour is seeing prefab operations for large mechanical contractors. We worked with one that did turnkey MEP. All of the main lines for everything were prefabbed and put together in assemblies veggie being shipped to the site. Ducts, conduits, drains, water lines... Everything was put together and hung as a big unit. They'd even build entire wall assemblies for things like bathrooms or head walls in hospital rooms. They just pieced them together like Legos in the field. All of the branch lines had everything labeled and perfectly laid out in little packages with labeled shop drawings, tracked down to the nut and bolt. They had some really cool machines for CNC'ing ductwork, folding and lining ducts, and making spiral round duct. They also had a 7 axis plasma cutter for metal pipes that could cut any joint imaginable and left an edge so perfect they didn't even need to clean it before welding. Very little was done by hand aside from things like PVC glue up and assembly. Just super cool to watch things go from CAD straight to assembly on a truck waiting to be installed.

EMY92 said:

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The exception to that is Goodman, it sucks regardless of install quality.

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242 tons of air handling at our site in Webster teach me otherwise. I have trouble with my York and Leibert units but my Trane, McQuay and Goodman never have an issue. Daikin is hit/miss depending on the specific unit.

ETA - I did a quick review and I manage some 14,000 tons of HVAC from various makers. The above statement stands true for all 14k tons, with one exception... My Leiberts at other sites run great. The ones in Webster are old so we have issues there. The problem is getting a service company that can work on them. They're an odd ball.

In SA, I've had better luck with Chilly Willy than any other A/C contractor. Funny name, but have been very happy with their service.

I've seen Goodman upright/horizonal air handlers (residential) sag when installed horizontally. Bracing needed to be added under the length of the unit to prevent that.

That wasn't the case for Lennox, Trane/Am. Standard, Carrier, and most other brands.

I've also seen Goodman squirrel cages explode.