If his point is correct then I guess I agree that it isn't poaching game but killing livestock. Hopefully the poacher/livestock killer is caught though.

I guess it depends on what type of deer it was. I have a client who has a high fence ranch and he told me that white tail deer are the "property" of the state regardless of whether he buys and breeds them. But he may have been FOS.

Alta said:

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If his point is correct then I guess I agree that it isn't poaching game but killing livestock. Hopefully the poacher/livestock killer is caught though.

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If they are stupid enough to shoot a 200" deer, they are stupid enough to talk or get it mounted.

200" high fence deer grow on trees. Reload! A - Whoop!

If you own a high fence near a county road I would leave a sliver of brush or some type of cover along the fence to hide those high dollar antlers !

Ownership of native wildlife is such that they are held in trust for the people by the state (recall that the people ARE the state).

Therefore the state (people) own the white tail.

1) Whitetail are not owned by an individual - someone smarter than me can lay it out in legal terms. As someone above stated, the state (people) owns them. This is why a whitetail with an ear tag is 100% fair game the second it escapes a high fence.

2) screw poachers! Absolute scum... you're going to poach a deer like that and then hide it away for decades because you can't tell anyone the true origin of the trophy? Makes me sick.

3) I hope they catch them and throw the book at them.

Whitetail... behind a high fence or not are considered as property of the state and governed on laws by the TPWD.
Exotics are considered "alternative livestock" under State of Texas Ag law.
If Exotics are poached or stolen, the Cattleman's Ranger is the investigative body in most instances. However most good GW's will work on the case with them.
Texas Rangers work on high profile cases of animal theft.
About 21 years ago our two local GW's worked very diligently to bust a poaching ring in the hill country. It was amazing how organized the group of poachers were. There was a total of six of them, including two women that had the poaching planned as we'll as a bank robbery. Our Game Wardens worked very hard to bust them.

Well. Not necessarily. We had a fairly large high fence place in the hill country. We never bought any deer or raised them in any pens. We never touched them. Just planted food sources and fed them supplemental protein and tried to manage them and the rangeland.
Largest deer we ever had was a 1861/8 typical pretty whitetail with long times.
He was 8-1/2 yrs old.
We just tried to let our true native born hill country deer reach the best they could be.

GW's told me it was all about their egos and mounts. They admittedly did it for The thrill of doing it but also had the animals as mounts in their homes.
It was pretty amazing how he said they planned it out. They even had UHF marine band radios they communicated on.
They would be a road or area and scout it for3-4 weeks then plan a night to do it.
Each of the 6 had a designated job. Two watched for traffic, one did the spotting and location of the deer, then two did the drive by shooting and kept going. Then the women had a late model suburban and would pull over close to the deer. The women would be in dresses and would pull off the road simulating car problems. When given the all clear two of the guys would drive up. Load the deer in the suburban with the women and drive off. Women would transport the animal. Who would stop two women in a Denali for poaching?
They had it down to a science for sure.

normaleagle05 said:

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Ownership of native wildlife is such that they are held in trust for the people by the state (recall that the people ARE the state).

Therefore the state (people) own the white tail.

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This is my problem with high fenced operations in general. Property owners don't have the right to trap publicly owned wildlife for their personal observation or consumption.

If you want to erect a high fence, you should have to show proof that a reasonable effort has been made to remove all native game animals from the property.

Buy and breed all the deer you want, those are your deer. The native deer, however, do not belong exclusively to you.

Sounds like the ole case of, spend more time focusing your time and effort on how to the cheat and pass the test vs. actually using your intellectual abilities to study and pass it on your own, and likely with less time.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised...

The landowner is a resident of Texas. He is paying the same property taxes as you. (Usually a heck of a lot more) The same sales taxes as you etc. etc. therefore the game animals are as much his as yours.
Most high fence places I have worked for (Many Aggies own them) intensely manage them so the population dynamics are kept in check and the rangeland is managed with the help of TPWD to insure a much healthier herd as compared to open range.
I.E. The typical population in Llano County is one deer per 7 acres. The range can not consistently support that kind of population.
The MLD programs that 95% of high fences are on(With the guidance of TPWD) populations are at 12-14 acres per deer.
To qualify for the MLD the landowner must do a plan and implement his plan under the watchful eye of his local biologist. These practices are: one or a combination off:
Brush control, Cedar Clearing, *****ly Pear control , Erosion Control, water source development, pasture renovation and reseeding and intensive population dynamics that insures proper buck to doe ratios. ( ideally 1/1) , proper range carrying populations and the harvesting of inferior specimens to enhance the overall quality of the herd and allow same herd to be able to fully mature to reach their maximum health and potential.
TWA has statistics that only 21% of the high fence ranches in Texas commercially sell hunts. Most being managed for personal achievement and individual and family enjoyment only.
Also please understand that TPWD developed and encouraged these management programs and procedures.
I know of many high fence places that never raise a deer in a pen. Never make a dime in return for any of there time and money spent and have never bought or sold a deer.
Most high fence places use the high fence to keep unwanted specimens out rather than "trap" them as you say.
How many low fence ranches do you know are on MLD's? Can you give me the statistics of how many low fence ranches in Texas are on the MLD program?
According to TPWD info in 2017 only 23% of the free range low fence ranches in Texas are utilizing the MLD Level two program.
So why is that? If they are everybody's deer how come the low fence guys don't put out the effort and implement all the requirements of the program to improve the population ratios and quality of the deer herds in Texas?
Where are all the people who own all the deer in Texas when we have harsh droughts and the rangeland is devastated from overpopulation? Are all the people in Texas donating time and effort to clear the cedar in Texas so it enhances our water sources for the deer or donating protein pellets or other food to help the deer in these times? Most people don't even fill their feeders till September and then it's with corn. Which has barely 6% protein content., and stop as soon as deer season is over.
So who does the most for the quality of the range and the deer herds?
A landowner who has a high fence is breaking no laws and is in fact bettering the ecosystem and entire rangeland by intensely managing his land and the native deer herd.
It always gets me about guys arguing who owns the deer while they move into their newly built home in the new subdivision that just destroyed acres and acres of deer habitat.
So hypocritical. Like democrats.

Man... you never fail to show up on these threads and show your ass. Who cares what the deer herd is like on a high fence place if the general public can't access that state resource? I'm so glad the high fence guys manage their herds so well and get help from TPW, not like 99.999% of the population will ever see any benefits from all that. You are so damn clueless.

The high fence owner has just as much right to those deer as anyone sure, but does he have the right to restrict others access to them??? If I have a river running through my property do I have the right to dam it and not let any water leave my place to the people down stream?

It's theft, plain and simple.

I absolutely don't condemn poaching but don't agree with the high fencing of native game animals. They aren't breaking the laws because the rich and influential helped pass those laws. Meggy's comment on river issue hits the nail on the head.

The premise that "intensely managed habitat" makes any long term sense for deer populations is absolute clown shoes.

It's not sustainable.

Gunny456 said:

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The landowner is a resident of Texas. He is paying the same property taxes as you. (Usually a heck of a lot more)

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This is the most ignorant statement I'll read all year.

Gunny456 said:

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....The same sales taxes as you etc. etc.

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I can admit when I'm wrong. I was wrong. Taken together, these are the most ignorant statements I'll read all year.

meggy09 said:

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Man... you never fail to show up on these threads and show your ass. Who cares what the deer herd is like on a high fence place if the general public can't access that state resource? I'm so glad the high fence guys manage their herds so well and get help from TPW, not like 99.999% of the population will ever see any benefits from all that. You are so damn clueless.

The high fence owner has just as much right to those deer as anyone sure, but does he have the right to restrict others access to them??? If I have a river running through my property do I have the right to dam it and not let any water leave my place to the people down stream?

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This is not universally accurate depiction of high-fence habitats. There's a lot of stupid **** happening under the watchful eye of TPWD. I had a neighbor in the hill country that had 180ac under high fence. 180ac!! Deer were never meant to be confined to 180ac. Where the deer and the antelope roam indeed! Citing your animal load per acre he would have only had like 15 animals. Through feed plots and lots of year round automatic feeders there were more deer than that in the lockup. All so he could go and shoot a handful of animals a year. It's dumb. TPWD should give preference to low-fence habitat if they really wanted to improve the deer and have those improved deer propagate. At a minimum there should be a lower limit on the acres you can enclose with high-fence.

My neighbors with Ag and wildlife exemptions pay 1/10th the taxes I do, but my property is markedly better wildlife habitat overall. Just saying the distribution of tax burden with regards to wildlife benefits isn't exactly fair when you get down to moderately sized properties.

That being said, back to the argument about game vs wildlife, the GW are state officers so they can be involved in state law enforcement and they would have the general experience in dealing with game species.

I think the laws might need a bit of tweaking to better distinguish between livestock and game in the case where one species can really be both. The current law is fairly clear that it is species based, but I find it really strange that it is seemingly permissible to handle, purchase and sell game like livestock or property in some cases, but not others. That type of treatment is the only way you end up with high fences and tags and genetic lineages and breeding programs, etc. i'm Not one for excessive regulation, however, so maybe it is best left alone.

Also, how trash are you that you prioritize game trophies so highly that you are willing to commit a conspiracy of multiple felonies to have an Big ass set of antlers on your crappy place that you will have to lie about for the rest of your life?

You said that better and nicer than I would have. I was going to reply with that's a bunch of bull *****

This issue has been hashed out hundreds of times on the OB over the years. You won't convince the other side to change their mind. Personally I think both sides have some valid arguments. As a non landowner(well 1/4 acre in a subdivision) I'd probably lean slightly toward no high fences, but not strong enough to argue about it.

Well, this thread went about how I expected. You guys do amazing consistent work!

I chop mine up to put in my chili with beans