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Robbed [from general]

10,894 Views | 81 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by 91AggieLawyer
dds08
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I posted this on the general board and was told to come here.

My father, brother and I had a situation last night where someone ran off with my father's lawnmower.

What are the consequences (both good and bad) for putting a bullet in someone in the act of a robbery on one's father's property?

It's happened too many times. I don't want to shoot some idiot teenager, but whoever this is has gotten too brazen.


paging hawg.


PS. I'm open to being told what I don't want to hear.

Edit: I'm in Houston
SanAntoneAg
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Was it after dark?
Gig 'em! '90
highvelocity
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In today's cultural climate id shoot someone only if I was in fear for my life. Shooting someone for stealing a lawnmower will probably get your ass thrown in jail.

Rule of thumb if you do end up shooting someone - if they're fleeing don't shoot them in the back, court will side with person shot (fight or flight) rule. Make sure they're in your house - see reason above.

Don't shoot to wound, shoot to kill. Dead person can't sue you in civil court.

Thank you for coming to my ted talk
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FIDO*98*
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highvelocity said:

Don't shoot to wound, shoot to kill. Dead person can't sue you in civil court.



A dead person's family can sue for wrongful death just as easily as a survivor can sue for bodily injury
aggiedent
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I guess ask yourself the following question.

Is a lawnmower (or whatever) worth the stress of shooting someone and the possible risk of getting entangled in the legal system, both criminal and civil?

Different people will have different answers. Part of me would put a bullet in a thief in a second, but part of me also knows that things would never be the same.
highvelocity
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You're right, but, no eye witness (assuming it's a 1v1 altercation) tilts things in your favor I would think
Owner of Texas Strap Company use code TEXAGS for 15% off
www.txstrapco.com

Sales Director for BCA Firearms
www.bcafirearmstx.com
Central Committee
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I carry religiously these days. But lawn and garden property isn't worth a life much less the attorneys fees you pay.
dds08
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highvelocity said:

In today's cultural climate id shoot someone only if I was in fear for my life. Shooting someone for stealing a lawnmower will probably get your ass thrown in jail.

Rule of thumb if you do end up shooting someone - if they're fleeing don't shoot them in the back, court will side with person shot (fight or flight) rule. Make sure they're in your house - see reason above.

Don't shoot to wound, shoot to kill. Dead person can't sue you in civil court.

Thank you for coming to my ted talk
It was at 12:45 am last night and the person hit the siding of our house, in the act, causing two loud crashes. Our gate/fence isn't so easy to get in/out of.
dds08
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What I wanna know is, if I confront whoever it is in the act of robbing me, would I be justified in pulling my gun and demanding it back, yes or no.

Second, if they pull out a firearm, am I justified to shoot, yes or no.
dds08
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BTW, the neighbors are having the same problem.
DiskoTroop
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dds08 said:

What I wanna know is, if I confront whoever it is in the act of robbing me, would I be justified in pulling my gun and demanding it back, yes or no.

Second, if they pull out a firearm, am I justified to shoot, yes or no.


This is a touch situation. A savvy lawyer would say you escalated the situation by producing the firearm first. Not saying he'd win, but it's be a tough battle.

Secondly, if you have a camera system to catch such a confrontation on film, that might help significantly. Who's to say you didn't just shoot the guy in cold blood? Video footage would help.
ttha_aggie_09
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Non legal opinion:

Yes, you're absolutely justified but understand that it if someone is robbing you, there is a good chance they're armed and are threat to you and your family. Treat them as such from the beginning, if you decide to intervene.

I don't know that I would be willing to shoot someone over a lawnmower, but I would be very quick to defend my family if someone is burglarizing my house at night.

agsalaska
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Central Committee said:

I carry religiously these days. But lawn and garden property isn't worth a life much less the attorneys fees you pay.
Absolutely. I do not know of any property worth killing a man for.
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
tlh3842
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highvelocity said:

Rule of thumb if you do end up shooting someone - if they're fleeing don't shoot them in the back, court will side with person shot (fight or flight) rule. Make sure they're in your house - see reason above.


This is the biggie.
C@LAg
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Sine poena nulla lex.
agfan2013
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agsalaska said:

Absolutely. I do not know of any property worth killing a man for.


Most general stuff I'd agree (Including lawnmowers), but I wouldn't say never. My grandfather brought back a lot of stuff from WWII, and specifically left me some stuff from it. If I came home and some guy was trying to make off with something like that, old family heirloom, etc. no question.....
shalackin
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Lot of misinformation here. Good luck.
highvelocity
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Care to enlighten the group?
Owner of Texas Strap Company use code TEXAGS for 15% off
www.txstrapco.com

Sales Director for BCA Firearms
www.bcafirearmstx.com
highvelocity
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Bring back the days of SSS
Owner of Texas Strap Company use code TEXAGS for 15% off
www.txstrapco.com

Sales Director for BCA Firearms
www.bcafirearmstx.com
TheEyeGuy
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I am not a lawyer, just a gun dealer. I believe what I am about to say is true, but I may be off on some of the finer points.

In Texas, you are allowed to use force on someone who is trespassing. However, that is not deadly force. So, pulling a gun on someone simply trespassing would not be a smart move.

Now if they are stealing property, you are allowed to use deadly force to recover said property. However, this is predicated on the perpetrator already having your property and you not having any other way of getting it back because they are fleeing.

Do you hunt? If so, think back to the first time you killed an animal. It changed you. Taking a human life, especially one that is not directly threatening your or a loved ones life is going to change you. Is that something you want on your conscience? It's easy to say that it was a bad person so what's the problem? I hear this weekly in my store. However, I don't believe that. From talking to those that have had to kill someone, I'd rather not unless I had to. And that's what I teach in store.

You're mad. You have every right to be. However, I think you need to take a step back and think of this in non personal terms. If the ****head comes back, and you shoot him before he takes anything, do you really think a jury will acquit you? Do you really want to pay for the defensive lawyers, possibly both civil and criminal to defend you? And keep in mind, even if you do everything according to the letter if the law, all it takes is a district attorney that wants to make a name for himself or a family member of the perp to realize that you are a possible pay day for them to sue you and for you to be out thousands and thousands of dollars because you killed someone over a $500 lawn mower.

On top of all that, if you go out to confront him, what if he is armed? What happens it he kills you instead?

These are things I discuss in store with people daily. Just because you can do certain things with a firearm, didn't mean that you should.

Again, I may be off on some of the finer points here. If your handle means you are a dentist, I assume you have a relationship with a lawyer. You need to talk to him or her about this to get into the details.
Owner of Texian Firearms:
Dealer in Firearms, Optics, Night Vision and other shooting accessories.
US importer/distributor of Rudolph Optics
Supporting bad financial decisions since 2015
C@LAg
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Sine poena nulla lex.
OverSeas AG
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Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess
TheEyeGuy
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OverSeas AG said:

EyeGuy,

I think you give wise counsel.

Taking a life - regardless of the reason - justified or not - is going to change you. Outside of an imminent threat of death to someone (you or someone else), it just isn't worth the cost IMHO. Emotional, Spiritual or Material costs... it isn't worth it. And there is a cost in all three realms - even when justified.


I try not to get deeply philosophical on the board, but the truth is that this is something that I think about a lot because of what I do. When I first started down this road, I had to come to grips with the fact that over the course of my career, guns that I sold would most likely be used to kill people at times. Even that indirect knowledge has changed my outlook on life, and I wasn't even directly responsible. I take solace in the fact that I do my best to weed out the turds, educate new gun owners, and genuinely try to put guns into the hands of good people. I do know for a fact that I sold a gun that was used in a suicide. It's rather sobering, and I didn't even directly kill a human being. I also still remember the range of emotions that I felt with my first deer kill. There was a lot of elation, but also remorse. Being directly responsible for the death of a living thing was sad to twelve year old me. Thank God Dad was there and immediately discussed those feelings with me. I can honestly say that one moment shaped my life more than any other. And to this day, there is a sorrowful respect I have for any life I take out in the field (except for pigs.... Running Texian joke is that they have no souls). And I wouldn't have it any other way, it keeps me well grounded. As such, I know for a fact, that considering all that, if I ever have to use a gun to defend myself or a loved one, it would greatly affect me in ways that I don't yet understand, nor do I want to.
Owner of Texian Firearms:
Dealer in Firearms, Optics, Night Vision and other shooting accessories.
US importer/distributor of Rudolph Optics
Supporting bad financial decisions since 2015
TheEyeGuy
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And op, I'm in Houston. If your want to come by the shop to talk about this in person, I'll always more that happy to help.
Owner of Texian Firearms:
Dealer in Firearms, Optics, Night Vision and other shooting accessories.
US importer/distributor of Rudolph Optics
Supporting bad financial decisions since 2015
cuz-i-can
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There are important distinctions between robbery (theft with force or threat), burglary (theft from a building while tresspassing), theft from non-habitation, etc...

There are different penalties associated with each as well as some defense to prosecution protections.

Shooting someone for trying to commit a robbery (violent crime) vs shooting someone for theft (property crime) is vastly different.
Charismatic Megafauna
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We're talking Texas, right? Last i checked we still have one of the strongest castle doctrines in the union. Moral issues aside, my understanding is that if someone is on your property and you feel threatened, you can kill them dead. And if someone is in possession of property that was stolen from you, on your property or not, you can kill them dead. And then there's some gray area about killing someone in possession of property that belongs to a relative or friend or whatever. I know that there's at least one poster here who has been through this and i believe their take on it is that the strain on your life is not worth it (i.e. just let them have the mower) , but legally i don't think there's any question in the scenario you presented.

Eta: this talk about what a jury would do...in the scenario presented this would be a no-bill, correct? That means no charge, no jury, yes?
Old Tom Morris
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The first hour you pay a good attorney is going to cost more than the mower. And you are going to want and need that lawyer no matter how squeaky clean your shoot is. So my advice on this (and most) is to save it for when you are truly threatened. Any property worthy of a big legal bill from shooting someone should already be insured.
TheEyeGuy
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NRD09 said:

We're talking Texas, right? Last i checked we still have one of the strongest castle doctrines in the union. Moral issues aside, my understanding is that if someone is on your property and you feel threatened, you can kill them dead. And if someone is in possession of property that was stolen from you, on your property or not, you can kill them dead. And then there's some gray area about killing someone in possession of property that belongs to a relative or friend or whatever. I know that there's at least one poster here who has been through this and i believe their take on it is that the strain on your life is not worth it (i.e. just let them have the mower) , but legally i don't think there's any question in the scenario you presented.

Eta: this talk about what a jury would do...in the scenario presented this would be a no-bill, correct? That means no charge, no jury, yes?


Depends on the district attorney and what they are seeking. Most situations like this would not get to a jury trial, but let's say you're in a liberal metro area, the perp was of a certain group and you are another, there is a large outcry from the community for the death because "he was such a good boy" regardless of his very definitive sketchy past. You don't think something like that could go to a jury trial? And keep in mind, on these thought experiments, I tackle them from a worst case scenario perspective. Most likely, most people would see this for what it is and not let it fester, but with how our media and political machines work, I have little faith in either local group.
Owner of Texian Firearms:
Dealer in Firearms, Optics, Night Vision and other shooting accessories.
US importer/distributor of Rudolph Optics
Supporting bad financial decisions since 2015
alvtimes
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dds08 said:

I posted this on the general board and was told to come here.

My father, brother and I had a situation last night where someone ran off with my father's lawnmower.

What are the consequences (both good and bad) for putting a bullet in someone in the act of a robbery on one's father's property?

It's happened too many times. I don't want to shoot some idiot teenager, but whoever this is has gotten too brazen.


paging hawg.


PS. I'm open to being told what I don't want to hear.

Edit: I'm in Houston


Reading OP's post, I see "its happened too many times"....... where do you draw the line on repetitive theft.... mower gets stole, you get another.... it gets stolen... you get another.... Lord knows everyone has read stories where police come out and take report and thats the last you ever hear....... whats the answer????? A person shouldnt be subjected to repeated thefts with no recourse!
BuddysBud
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TheEyeGuy said:

NRD09 said:

We're talking Texas, right? Last i checked we still have one of the strongest castle doctrines in the union. Moral issues aside, my understanding is that if someone is on your property and you feel threatened, you can kill them dead. And if someone is in possession of property that was stolen from you, on your property or not, you can kill them dead. And then there's some gray area about killing someone in possession of property that belongs to a relative or friend or whatever. I know that there's at least one poster here who has been through this and i believe their take on it is that the strain on your life is not worth it (i.e. just let them have the mower) , but legally i don't think there's any question in the scenario you presented.

Eta: this talk about what a jury would do...in the scenario presented this would be a no-bill, correct? That means no charge, no jury, yes?


Depends on the district attorney and what they are seeking. Most situations like this would not get to a jury trial, but let's say you're in a liberal metro area, the perp was of a certain group and you are another, there is a large outcry from the community for the death because "he was such a good boy" regardless of his very definitive sketchy past. You don't think something like that could go to a jury trial? And keep in mind, on these thought experiments, I tackle them from a worst case scenario perspective. Most likely, most people would see this for what it is and not let it fester, but with how our media and political machines work, I have little faith in either local group.


You should take into account that Houston and Harris County suffered greatly from the Beto effect and have crazy liberal DA's.
NCNJ1217
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If I were the OP, I would invest in a security /camera system, spotlights, etc. make your property more of a hard target.

My concern with such repeated theft is, what if the perps decide at some point to up the ante, and my own personal safety is compromised. Given this, I would definitely arm myself, get the appropriate training, and chat with a lawyer regarding certain scenarios.

I don't know if I would ever go outside in the middle of the night to confront a crook. Nothing good happens after midnight. If making my property a hard target didn't work, I honestly would think about moving.
TheEyeGuy
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BuddysBud said:

TheEyeGuy said:

NRD09 said:

We're talking Texas, right? Last i checked we still have one of the strongest castle doctrines in the union. Moral issues aside, my understanding is that if someone is on your property and you feel threatened, you can kill them dead. And if someone is in possession of property that was stolen from you, on your property or not, you can kill them dead. And then there's some gray area about killing someone in possession of property that belongs to a relative or friend or whatever. I know that there's at least one poster here who has been through this and i believe their take on it is that the strain on your life is not worth it (i.e. just let them have the mower) , but legally i don't think there's any question in the scenario you presented.

Eta: this talk about what a jury would do...in the scenario presented this would be a no-bill, correct? That means no charge, no jury, yes?


Depends on the district attorney and what they are seeking. Most situations like this would not get to a jury trial, but let's say you're in a liberal metro area, the perp was of a certain group and you are another, there is a large outcry from the community for the death because "he was such a good boy" regardless of his very definitive sketchy past. You don't think something like that could go to a jury trial? And keep in mind, on these thought experiments, I tackle them from a worst case scenario perspective. Most likely, most people would see this for what it is and not let it fester, but with how our media and political machines work, I have little faith in either local group.


You should take into account that Houston and Harris County suffered greatly from the Beto effect and have crazy liberal DA's.


Oh trust me, I have had wonderful experiences with the DAs office. Apparently, burglarizing a gun store and committing about two dozen federal felonies is worthy of landing someone on probation
Owner of Texian Firearms:
Dealer in Firearms, Optics, Night Vision and other shooting accessories.
US importer/distributor of Rudolph Optics
Supporting bad financial decisions since 2015
NCNJ1217
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DAs office in Houston is worthless. Crime has gone up because criminals know they aren't going to jail.
texAZtea
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OB bait lawn mower sting?

shoot with a camera instead of a winchester?
PA24
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If u can drag the dead over to your neighbors yard I think you will be okay.

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