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Comanche Ranch Study: Culling Doesn't Work

11,848 Views | 65 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by ElAmericano
TxLawDawg
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Quote:

"Culling" in the deer-hunting sense is the idea that removing bucks with less-than-desirable antler characteristics for their age will increase antler quality of future bucks by changing the genetics of the population. To test this idea, Donnie and his co-researchers Dr. Charlie DeYoung, Ph.D. student Masa Ohnishi, and Dr. Randy DeYoung of Texas A&M-Kingsville and Dr. Bronson Strickland of Mississippi State University set up three areas on the Comanche Ranch for study. They included an "intensive" culling treatment area (3,500 acres), a "moderate" treatment (18,000 acres), and a "control" area where no culling would be performed (5,000 acres). Other than size, the three areas were similar in habitat and herd characteristics.

Each fall from 2006 to 2015, researchers used helicopter net-gun crews to capture bucks in all three treatment areas (this area of southwest Texas is virtually treeless brush country where aerial capture is feasible). Researchers estimated each buck's age based on tooth replacement and wear, collected a DNA sample, measured the antlers, and inserted a microchip PIT tag in the ear.
Quote:

These were the culling criteria used:

Intensive
(3,500 acres): Yearlings with less than 6 antler points, 2-year-olds with less than 8 points, 3- to 4-year-olds with less than 9 points, and bucks 5 or older scoring less than 145 gross Boone & Crockett inches were culled.

Moderate
(18,000 acres): 3- to 4-year-olds with less than 9 points and all bucks 5 or older scoring less than 145 gross Boone & Crockett inches were culled (the same criteria as the intensive treatment except no yearlings or 2-year-olds were culled in this area).

Control
(5,000 acres): No culling at all. All captured bucks were evaluated, tagged and released.
Quote:

Intensive: Buck Population Crash
The stringent culling criteria in this area of the ranch resulted in predictably extreme culling. Each year, 85 to 100 percent of yearlings captured in this area met the culling criteria, even though DNA studies ultimately revealed that many of them had fathers that were not cull bucks.

"Culling yearlings with less than 6 points essentially crashed the buck population," said Donnie. "The intensive criteria equated to a 93 percent cull rate of every yearling we captured. When you add in natural mortality factors like predators and drought, we were basically removing recruitment. The population couldn't compensate through reproduction."
Quote:

Moderate: Zero Benefits

Without culling yearlings and 2-year-olds, the moderate treatment did not produce the negative effect on the buck/doe ratio that led to cascading effects on fawn birth dates in the intensive treatment. But after seven years of culling was complete, no evidence emerged of successful genetic change.

The average Boone & Crockett score of the standing crop of bucks in the moderate area was the same as it had been at the outset. That was also true in the control area. Despite one area being subjected to high-tech helicopter capture and culling for seven years, overall antler quality in that area remained the same as in the study area where zero bucks were culled.
Quote:

Why It Didn't Work
The Comanche Ranch study is the second major study of wild Texas deer to find that culling was ineffective. Dr. Mickey Hellickson's King Ranch study also found no change in antler quality after many years of intensive culling. But Comanche's more recent study had something the King Ranch study did not: DNA analysis.

Through DNA, Masa Ohnishi and Dr. Randy DeYoung were able to connect offspring to 963 buck fathers and build family trees of relationships for immediate relatives (fathers, sons and brothers). By studying these family connections in combination with the known antler measurements for each buck in the tree for some of them across multiple years the team established a "breeding value" for individual bucks: a buck's genetic value based on the antler quality of its offspring relative to the average for the population. A buck that produced offspring with above-average antlers for the population earned a higher breeding value, and vice versa.

If culling is to work, the criteria would need to remove bucks with lower breeding values while leaving bucks with higher breeding values to make more fawns. But the family trees revealed a brick wall: antler size was not correlated to breeding value. Therefore, you cannot predict the breeding value of a buck by looking at his antlers.

Over years of data, the research team found cull-worthy bucks with low-quality antlers that produced fawns that went on to have above-average antlers. They also found bucks with large antlers for their age that produced fawns with below-average antlers. Without being able to trust antler quality as a guide to a buck's breeding value, a hunter has no way to selectively cull.
Quote:

Focus on What Works
"I have no hesitation, no doubt, that culling in wild deer does not work," said Donnie. "Those who think they've had success aren't considering all the other factors involved."

Those factors include age, which is achieved by protecting most yearling bucks and increasing numbers of adults. They include nutrition, which is enhanced through habitat management techniques that increase forage production, like food plots, forest management, and prescribed fire, or though an intensive supplemental feeding program. They include techniques for encouraging mature bucks to use the land you hunt, like pressure management, sanctuaries, and cover production. Unlike culling, these techniques work.
https://www.qdma.com/qdm-works-culling-doesnt/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2019-10-17&fbclid=IwAR3LODb32Jh91jlAM-Ezd9KDXG2G3MV1xsMcNNnvn1ZrHYMcK-BFcT21uDU

Interesting article for sure, and it seems to be the first long term study on culling with the benefit of DNA testing. I'm one that has always logically believed and followed the idea of culling. To me the biggest surprise of this study was that bucks with the highest breeding value to produce large antlers often didn't have large antlers themselves.
Furlock Bones
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the more and more we learn. the more find out age is what matters. get your average age up and you'll see bigger antlers.
AnScAggie
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MS St did a study over a decade ago showing the same thing. They also found that the bucks you wanted to do the breeding tended to have about 0.88 male offspring make it to harvest/breeding age.
Ark03
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There was also a podcast done from this work a year or two ago. See episode 32 of Deer University's podcast series: http://deeruniversity.libsyn.com/episode-032-culling-to-improve-genetics-fact-or-fiction

It's been a while since I listened to this and sent it to the other folks on my lease, but IIRC one sidenote was that they found when left alone, many "cull bucks" with so-called inferior genetics were observed with a perfectly typical, well-defined rack in subsequent years. And, some deer would have "cull" rack in the middle of a series of perfectly typical racks.

There's a lot going on that isn't related to genetics, or even necessarily age.
ttha_aggie_09
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Quote:

"Looking at antlers is the only way we know how to cull," said Donnie. "We don't know how to cull a doe."

Every program is limited to just controlling the bucks because you can't cull a doe based on any observed trait (for antler production). This has been known and makes herd antler improvement very difficult.

That being said, managing deer numbers, supplemental feeding and allowing bucks to mature, is absolutely effective. I have seen it first hand after hunting a place for 15+ years.

The hardest thing I have trouble with on this study, and this is probably more related to what I have been trained that any scientific data, is letting a mature (4.5+) whitetail walk when it has subpar antlers. For example:

You have 4 bucks consistently on camera/in person that are 4.5-5.5. 3 are 130"+ 10pt + and one is a 120" 8pt.... why would you not shoot the 8, let the others breed and increase the amount of available food breeding rights for the better deer?

Definitely makes you think and I appreciate you sharing. The fact is we're all just trying to understand antler management in wild herds and the only things proven to grow bigger deer are age and supplemental feeding/food plots/habitat improvements. I will still have a hard time deviating from shooting cull bucks but this makes you think.
AgLA06
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Sigh.

What works is keeping population numbers in check and healthy for the carrying capacity of the land. Culling is part of that (both sexes). So is improving the cover, forage, and water supply.

No logical person is going to remove young bucks with lots of potential over traditional cull bucks. So in essence culling does work as better potential deer thrive and reach older age.

These studies reach a conclusion that contradicts the entire point of culling. Older, healthier, mature deer.
Ark03
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The point is that what you are calling a "cull buck" in one year is not a good indication that it will be a "cull buck" in a future year. Sure, if you have options shoot what you want, but your "cull" one year may be a better deer than your "better potential deer" the next year.
TxLawDawg
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AgLA06 said:

Sigh.

What works is keeping population numbers in check and healthy for the carrying capacity of the land. Culling is part of that (both sexes). So is improving the cover, forage, and water supply.

No logical person is going to remove young bucks with lots of potential over traditional cull bucks. So in essence culling does work as better potential deer thrive and reach older age.

These studies reach a conclusion that contradicts the entire point of culling. Better deer.
I either misunderstand your post or I think you're missing the point of the study. Of course the point of culling is to improve the herd (i.e. "better deer"). For most managing a deer herd, better deer = large antlers. Of course managing the herd also includes maintaining the right balance of does to bucks, culling sick or injured animals, etc, but the most desirable trait among hunters is larger antlers.

The traditional culling program would follow the practice of maintaining the herd size while encouraging large racks by killing bucks that don't meet certain antler characteristics based on age. Consequently, the theory goes, by the time remaining bucks reach full maturity (6+ years), they are more likely to be trophy bucks with very large racks.

In my view, the most important and ground-breaking conclusion of this study, is that DNA evidence shows that the best breeding bucks (i.e. most likely to produce male off-spring with larger than normal antlers) do not necessarily have above average racks themselves. That means in a traditional culling system you're just a likely to cull one of your best breeder bucks, taking his superior genes out of the gene pool.

So, if traditional culling doesn't increase the chances of off-spring with larger racks, herd management should focus on habitat, nutrition, and herd size. Basically, don't shoot young deer unless they are infirm or injured, and don't feel like large mature bucks have to necessarily be left to breed another year. At least that's my take.
AgLA06
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TxLawDawg said:



...herd management should focus on habitat, nutrition, and herd size. Basically, don't shoot young deer unless they are infirm or injured, and don't feel like large mature bucks have to necessarily be left to breed another year. At least that's my take.



You have to remove bucks to maintain herd size just like does. 99.9% of ranches are not capable of going the DNA testing path (thank God). So other than that historical data (antler size on 3-5 year old deer) what method is there to use?
Cassius
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good luck convincing the 'necks that it doesn't work
AgySkeet06
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Quote:

Intensive (3,500 acres): Yearlings with less than 6 antler points, 2-year-olds with less than 8 points, 3- to 4-year-olds with less than 9 points, and bucks 5 or older scoring less than 145 gross Boone & Crockett inches were culled.
To me this is a ridiculous treatment that was set up to fail. It makes a flawed assumption based primarily on number of points and ignores the style or frame of a deers antlers. It also makes a bad judgement of a 4yr old 8pt deer assuming all 4yr olds should essentially be a 10 pt.

At our place if you followed this I think the herd would be decimated within 5 years. I know the herd I hunt is no where near what a south texas deer genetics potential would be but with age, supplemental feeding and removing less desirable qualities of deer I honestly believe a more "trophy grade" deer could be produced. If i had an intensive plan it would be this then re-evaluated every 5 years after the initial first 10 years:
Yearlings - Less than 3 points
2 Yr olds - Less than 6 points or no brow tine
3-4 Yr old - Less than 8 points or no brow tine or less than 13" wide
5 Yr old - Scoring less than 125"
Cassius
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AgLA06 said:

Sigh.

What works is keeping population numbers in check and healthy for the carrying capacity of the land. Culling is part of that (both sexes). So is improving the cover, forage, and water supply.

No logical person is going to remove young bucks with lots of potential over traditional cull bucks. So in essence culling does work as better potential deer thrive and reach older age.

These studies reach a conclusion that contradicts the entire point of culling. Older, healthier, mature deer.

What you described is called "hunting", not culling.
Naveronski
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I'd be curious to see how age and nutrition correlates to antler size.
SteveBott
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OP I did not read the article but did address spikes?
phorizt
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https://www.noble.org/news/publications/ag-news-and-views/2015/november/spike-buck-culling-seldom-provides-benefits/
AgySkeet06
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SteveBott said:

OP I did not read the article but did address spikes?
No it never mentions spikes. They are grouped with all yearlings less than 6 points.
SteveBott
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What is OBs thoughts on spikes? Where I hunt we only shoot ones that have significant antler size, say 5-6 inches. Usually 2.5s
FirefightAg
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The way I see it it's talking about shooting a four-year-old four point or shooting a four-year-old eight point isn't going to affect the odds of you having a hundred and fifty in four or five year old 20 years later. if you kept number shot food supplement habitat all the same and you only shot at age structure not antler size the odds are just as good for a big buck 10 20 30 years down the road
ttha_aggie_09
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phorizt said:

https://www.noble.org/news/publications/ag-news-and-views/2015/november/spike-buck-culling-seldom-provides-benefits/
I think enough information has been out since the Kerr WMA Study in the 80s (I think) to factually dispute the claim that shooting yearling spikes is beneficial.
AgySkeet06
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I ignore short spikes 2-4" long. We call them devil bucks. if the spike has any inner twist or curl to it we shoot it.
FirefightAg
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SteveBott said:

What is OBs thoughts on spikes? Where I hunt we only shoot ones that have significant antler size, say 5-6 inches. Usually 2.5s

Shoot them or don't shoot them it doesn't matter

again I don't think it matters as long as you're shooting for age not antlers whether you shoot a spike let him walk or shoot a 10-point they're saying you can't shoot antlers into bigger antlers nature won't allow for you to hunt into bigger deer food supplements and habitat seem to be the only way towards that
MouthBQ98
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I am going to guess antler growth patterns are much more random year over year than people think they are.
ttha_aggie_09
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SteveBott said:

What is OBs thoughts on spikes? Where I hunt we only shoot ones that have significant antler size, say 5-6 inches. Usually 2.5s
If you're shooting a "yearling" (1.5 or less) spike because you think it will never be as good as his brother that's a 6pt, then the science does not back this up. Several studies have shown that there is no statistical difference between yearling spikes and branched antler bucks by the time they both reach maturity.

I have never shot a spike and probably never will...
SteveBott
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We do not shoot yearlings. Only spikes it is clear they are older. If we want meat we just shoot does.
Ark03
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SteveBott said:

What is OBs thoughts on spikes? Where I hunt we only shoot ones that have significant antler size, say 5-6 inches. Usually 2.5s
The research shows that spikes on a side bucks, especially those with significant antler size, are generally due to injuries. There was some guy out of Auburn who dissected a bunch and found cranial damage on most of them.

Edit: and other studies have shown that many (not all) mature bucks who have a spike one year will have a typical rack the next.
Ark03
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MouthBQ98 said:

I am going to guess antler growth patterns are much more random year over year than people think they are.


This is exactly what the research shows. Essentially no studies support the idea of culling, yet we keep trying to play God.

Forage and water certainly have an impact, but the jury is still out on our ability to identify and manage genetics.
VaultingChemist
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What I would like to know is how to identify the does that have superior genetics. Trying to cull large numbers of does usually means that you will take does that you shouldn't.
MouthBQ98
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The ones with lots of offspring. The ones that by power, or cleverness, or persistence, are able to breed more.
B-1 83
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It took us 10 years, but we all but eliminated the "no brow times" gene on a ranch near Brackettville. No difference in feeding, and keeping numbers constant. Just a coincidence?
AgySkeet06
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here is a good example of my situation when it comes to shooting spikes or not.
2 pictures taken just 3 days apart on one of our ranches. IMO it it is obvious that all 3 of the bucks are of different age groups. Now this is an antler restricted county so i can shoot a buck with an unbranched antler and/or a buck that is at least 13" inside spread.

Here is a spike, appears about 6 inches tall and has a defined "curve" to the antler


And here are 2 definitely older bucks. I think most would agree the buck on the right is at least a year older than the buck on the left. Both bucks are to me borderline 13 inches and less than 110" of antler


Now whether I am out just for meat or looking for culling to improve the herd.....This year I am going to shoot the spike first chance and leave the other 2 bucks to breed this year and gain another year of maturity. By shooting the spike this year I am adjusting the buck/doe ratio and allowing these 2 more higher quality bucks to hopefully grow to be greater than 125" deer. To make matters less complicated, this will be the first year we get to shoot does during rifle as part of the Thankgiving period doe days so that leaves an opportunity for more meat and reducing the population.
Colt98
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A study that only focuses on culling bucks and not making sure doe numbers and herd density is correct for carry capacity, is pretty much a bunked study. Doe carry 50% of the genes. If you are only culling bucks based off of, what ever criteria you set, and not shooting the proper amount of doe the math will never work in your favor.

7k acres hf, all native south to deer, we shot 100+ doe a year for the first few years, every 8 point over 3.5 and any other trash bucks. In five years we rarely saw a mature 8( and if we did it was 6.5 with a lot of extra trash), we began to have to cull 10pt with short g2's. Went from a good mature buck in 160's. To commonly seeing bucks in 170-180's. Killing the doe, getting ratio to 1:1,1:1.5, and get carry capacity down

If your going to cull the right type of bucks, you have to wack at least the same amount of doe(or more depending on ratios) to help the mathematics of giving you more desirable bucks a chance to breed, hence upping you genie makeup in your doe herd... so on and so on...

This studies that only focus on bucks aggravate me. The one good thing out of this study is it shows people age is at the top of importance.
TxLawDawg
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I haven't seen the actual study findings or data; only the the linked article summarizing the study and its findings. However, my take was that they continued all other variables in the same manner, such as habitat management, feeding/nutrition program, and herd management through doe kills. My assumption is based on the need to control for those variables, as well as statements such as the following from the article:
Quote:

Those factors include age, which is achieved by protecting most yearling bucks and increasing numbers of adults. They include nutrition, which is enhanced through habitat management techniques that increase forage production, like food plots, forest management, and prescribed fire, or though an intensive supplemental feeding program. They include techniques for encouraging mature bucks to use the land you hunt, like pressure management, sanctuaries, and cover production. Unlike culling, these techniques work.
The point of the study was to determine whether a system of buck culling based on antler size and characteristics relative to age actually improved the average antler size over time. Maintaining an appropriate deer population and doe to buck ratio is obviously important, along with nutrition and habitat management.

One more note: this study was approved by the state, because they were granted special permits to cull bucks as part of the study beyond normal statewide limits. That also makes me inclined to believe that TPWD biologists and other experts reviewed and approved the study, and would want to make sure other variables were controlled in order to make the results as reliable as possible.
AgLA06
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Scientific studies in a bubble never represent reality.

If they ran a separate study on improving habitat / nourishment it would give you the same failing report for better deer. Why? Increase carrying capacity (habitat / food) and deer breed more resulting in more population and no change in herd quality. But if that study results were released we'd all laugh. Same with other individual parts of management plans studied in a bubble.

Deer management involves lots of things to be successful. No good manager is going to stop culling bucks and does to keep overall deer numbers down as part of his bigger management plan. Nor should they.

I guess this was what I was trying to say earlier. I'd laugh at someone who's only strategy for a better heard was just shooting lower quality bucks. If course that doesn't have enough of an impact.
INIGO MONTOYA
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i think this study is flawed on one part. there is a reason why there are a lot of folks making serious money breeding deer in pens. there's a reason folks do it with cattle, dogs, etc, etc. i've never seen someone use a crappy 8 pointer as a breeder buck. in the wild, not controlling half of the equation means that it takes a whole lot longer - but that doesn't mean you would get no benefit. these studies never went long enough to test the benefit.

i'm not discounting letting deer get old at all - that is huge - but there is no reason when you are controlling population to not take out inferior 4.5 and older bucks.

spikes: studies have shown that they mature with below average antlers. we shoot spikes, but it depends on the quality of the forage for the year. we wouldn't obliterate an age class - but will shoot a few each year. talked with a biologist about shooting the "long curvy" spikes over the short 2"-3" inchers. i always shot the long curvy spikes. He said inches of horn are inches of horn. same age class of animal you shoot the 2-3" over the 8" spike.

Antlers: i've run cameras for 10 years on every protein feeder and every corn feeder. Can absolutely track antlers from year to year on just about every buck. sometimes need to go to body characteristics. Have seen a 10 point go down to a 8 and then 7 and bounce back up to a 10. however, you could still match antler characteristics. saw another 8 pointer that would grow a spike horn on one side every other year. that is absolutely the exception and not the rule to the deer that i've followed. then again - we supplemental feed - so probably don't get the swings quite as much as those that don't.

We are controlling population and ratio on about 5,000 acres. Will likely not be on the lease long enough to see the overall genetics "move" - but we do plan on having a decent number of mature management and trophy deer each year. We don't get overly anxious about trying to discern 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks as they reportedly don't do a ton a breeding especially when you have a decent ratio - we do shoot spikes in these age classes and will let experience hunters take out the very week bucks. However, we press hard on the 4.5 year old deer. between 3.5 and 4.5 you have the largest jump in antler development - and their bodies bone structures have matured. I think they are generally easier to discern from a 3.5 year old buck than it is to tell a 2.5 from a 3.5. we leave trophy 8 pointers that carry mass, tine length, etc.

Colt98
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On the above mentioned ranch. We did not kill spikes the first few years. We concentrated on doe and cull bucks, but we killed 3:1 doe the first 2 years, 1:1 the 3rd going forward once we got the carry capacity to where we felt it needed to be. Spikes pretty much disappeard. We tightened our breeding cycle, our mortality rate dropped in our mature ages bucks. After year 4-5, we were killing around equal amount of doe and buck, and were not seeing the cull bucks in the older age structure so we did take a few spikes then. Most were later born fawns. But our idea was, we needed to take mouths off the property and we didn't want to take a higher potential buck, so we opted to take the yearling spike, with the potential of it being behind and taking more time(feed) to catch that deer up.

The state spike studies are bs. If you are hunting 100 ac in central Texas where the buck doe ratio is 1:4+ and you are shooting spikes, I believe you are making a big mistake. If that spike grows to be less than his forked horn counter part, enjoy shooting him as a nice 130". 8 when he is 5.5. Get some d doe tags and shoot doe to help
Lower your ratio, which will tighten your breeding cycle and you probably will start seeing less spike yearlings. Every few years you might see that 2.5+ spike, but it's very rare.
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