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Organic beef vs. non? Cows are outdoors...

21,186 Views | 208 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Bitter Old Man
Towns03
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AG
I think there are a bunch of people here who work on ranches and sell beef. My wife has been buying organic hamburger for a year or two and I'm not sure why. Can anyone here offer a description of the difference between organic vs. regular beef products? I think she's mainly concerned with hormones and antibiotics.

TIA for saving my dinner and wallet.
CanyonAg77
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AG
Quote:

Can anyone here offer a description of the difference between organic vs. regular beef products?

$$$$$$
AgsMnn
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CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

Can anyone here offer a description of the difference between organic vs. regular beef products?

$$$$$$



This

The amount of meat you have to actually eat on a daily basis to get a trace to show up is ridiculous.
DifferenceMaker Ag
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Organic beef is a great way to fleece the general public. Same with free range eggs.
The Original AG 76
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DifferenceMaker Ag said:

Organic beef ANYTHING is a great way to fleece the general public. Same with free range eggs.
fixed
drumboy
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DifferenceMaker Ag said:

Organic beef is a great way to fleece the general public. Same with free range eggs.

I thought free range eggs was more for cruelty of keeping chickens in a cage their whole life.
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DifferenceMaker Ag
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drumboy said:

DifferenceMaker Ag said:

Organic beef is a great way to fleece the general public. Same with free range eggs.

I thought free range eggs was more for cruelty of keeping chickens in a cage their whole life.
There are all kinds of claims that they are higher in trace minerals, omega 3 fatty acids, better quality protein, lower in cholesterol.. etc... etc..


Pure hogwash.
BradMtn346
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. Estrogenic activity of common foods (ng/3 oz serving)1
Soy flour (defatted) 128,423,201
Tofu 19,306,004
Pinto beans 153,087
White bread 51,029
Peanuts 17,010
Eggs 94
Milk 5.4
Beef from implanted steer 1.2
Beef from non-implanted steer .85
normaleagle05
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AG
0.0 ppwc
(Parts per who cares)
CanyonAg77
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I have a little more time to give a less snarky answer.

First, IMO, we should all be thanking God every day that we, as Americans, spend less on food than any humans in history, or even prehistory. Your cave-dwelling ancestors spent almost their entire life hunting and gathering. We spend about 10% of our income, thus about 10% of our average 40-50 hour work week "hunting and gathering" food.

And most of that "10% of the average American's income" bill for food is spent on convenience. Strip out fast food and prepared food, and that number drops. Even on raw, unprocessed food, much of what you spend goes to transport and handling.

So, how amazingly lucky are we, that we can have tons of cheap food, from around the world, brought almost to our door, for almost nothing.

In fact, we are so spoiled, that we can even be picky about exactly how how food is grown. "Organic" vs. conventional. GMO or not. Grass fed vs. corn fed. What a time to be alive.

Now, in case you haven't figured, my bias is that "organic" is so much bullcrap. To be labeled "organic" USDA gives you a list of substances you can use in "organic" production. Many people think that "organic" is chemical free. Of course, the whole world is chemicals, so nothing is chemical free. But "organic" is not free of pesticides. "Organic" simply allows a smaller list of pesticides to be used. Some benign, some not so much. Aspirin, atropine, and vaccines are allowed in "organic" animals. If you've got a half hour, here's a link to allowed/not allowed

The National List of Allowed and Prohibited Substances


As to her two concerns. First antibiotics. There was probably concern in the past, when antibiotics were common in feed. As far as I know, that practice is no longer used. And my understanding is not that the concern is humans ingesting antibiotics, the concern was that any contamination on the cow, such as e.coli, would become resistant to those antibiotics. So if you got a bit of e.coli in your hamburger, and it was a resistant strain, you were in trouble. So I don't believe that's still a concern.

Frankly, the opposition to antibiotics puzzles me. If a cow gets sick, wouldn't you want it medicated? Would you rather eat a steak with a microscopic trace of penicillin, or one from a steer that suffered from an otherwise curable disease?


Next, hormones. Want to avoid hormones in meat and milk? Don't eat meat and milk. It's the only way. Cows give milk because they've given birth to a calf, and their body is producing crap-tons of hormones that tell their udder to make milk. Why do steers grow? Because their body is producing growth hormones. Hormones are a natural part of the animal.

So the concern is that producers give added hormones. Okay. How much is too much? They amount given is very small, because hormones, by their nature, act in very small amounts. Also by their nature, hormones act by being metabolized. In other words, used up. Why would producers give an expensive supplement to their animals that would not be metabolized, but deposited in excess in milk and meat?

Next point: The hormones are animal hormones. Even if they somehow passed to humans, would they even have an effect?

Final point, your body also metabolizes the milk and meat. Assume that somehow excess hormones got into the milk and meat. First they would have to survive processing, such as slaughter or pasteurization. Or processing into butter or ice cream. Then they would have to survive the cooking process. Wonder what 10 minutes on a grill does to hormones?

Finally, they would have to survive digestion. I think you could probably swallow a beef hormone implant, and no hormone would survive your stomach acid to get into your system. But that's a guess. And again, it is a hormone for cattle. Why should it effect your system?

I think the same processing, cooking, digesting, and metabolizing arguments could be made for antibiotics.
ranchag04
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If you want to eat a sick cow not treated with antibiotics for recovery have at it
Cancelled
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Why are the cows so sick that they need so much antibiotics? My FIL has a ranch and I don't think he's administering ABs. My understanding is the ABs are given at the feet lot to boost mass.

Look, we buy grass fed organic. It doesn't affect you. I like to think that I'm doing something healthful for my family and I'm willing to pay a bit more. I also buy uncured deli meat and bacon as well as cage free eggs and organic milk. I also hunt and fish and I voted for trump so I'm not some leftist whacko.

I don't understand the problem. If I'm willing to dish out more money, why do people care? I'm not telling you everything has to be organic.

Edit for: not directed at you, just the sentiment here.
txaggiefarmer05
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AG
Producers don't have a problem with you buying organic, it's the false information about conventional production that is constantly spouted as fact by "scientists", and by scientists I mean women on Facebook who really research what they're claiming to be fact.
agfan2013
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Agree with farmer05, farmers/ranchers don't care it's a free society. They care about the Internet know-it-all Moms who get on Facebook and flood your timeline with the 5 articles they found on how it's bad for you, while ignoring the 1000+ ones that say they aren't. Kind like how one obscure medical paper on vaccination being linked to autism, that the doctor later retracted and lost his medical license over, caused U.K. Vaccination rates to plummet 60% for a few years and still has lingering effects in our country.

While not quite beef, I worked at a commodity processing plant for a couple years in college and my dad still works out there to this day. We would test GMO crops, traits, etc. from the big agrochemical companies and process them into feed or other final forms of use and perform laboratory analysis on the compositions of the product to see if chemicals, or other ressiudal effects made it through processsing. They don't. Now I know animals are living things and quite different from crops, but I know they do similar testing on processes with chickens, beef, & pork so if whomever does that testing has said they're good to go, then they're safe.

Not to mention if we had to do everything organic or non gmo, half this country would probably starve.
The Original AG 76
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queso1 said:

Why are the cows so sick that they need so much antibiotics? My FIL has a ranch and I don't think he's administering ABs. My understanding is the ABs are given at the feet lot to boost mass.

Look, we buy grass fed organic. It doesn't affect you. I like to think that I'm doing something healthful for my family and I'm willing to pay a bit more. I also buy uncured deli meat and bacon as well as cage free eggs and organic milk. I also hunt and fish and I voted for trump so I'm not some leftist whacko.

I don't understand the problem. If I'm willing to dish out more money, why do people care? I'm not telling you everything has to be organic.

Edit for: not directed at you, just the sentiment here.
Part of living in America is that you are free to waste your money on as many feel good phenoms as your little heart desires and one which is based on a love and concern for ones family is noble. What gets so tiresome about the organic scam is the cult like status and the superiority complex attached to so much of the craze. Much like cults such as crossfit we all see so many of our friends and family become near rabid devotees of the organic craze and are regaled by endless tomes of their superiority, SNARKY remarks directed at OUR life style and condescending attitudes. I am sure that you simply make your choices in the privacy of the shopping cart and leave it at the door BUT we all know quite a few cultists who CONSTANTLY berate our choice to eat as we please, regale us with an endless stream of Facebook posts, emails and even " gifts" of some non-flavored uber expensive barely edible food " discovery" of the month in a useless attempt to sway us to their cult. It has become as bad as those idiot vegetarians and their holier than thou insanity.
SWCBonfire
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As long as you eat beef, I don't care what kind you eat.

Grass finished beef DOES taste a little differently than corn finished beef. You can debate whether it is healthier for you or not (all beef is great for you in moderation, it is one of the main ways your body absorbs zinc, iron, magnesium, etc. and helps your body absorb protein and micronutrients from other food sources while it digests.)

Organic grass fed beef is pure marketing. If that's important to you, enjoy your steak, we'll make more.
Cancelled
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Grass fed doesn't taste as good as corn.

I'm not sure I've ever talked about the benefits of organic...except for the fact that organic milk lasts a long time. I think I've boasted that, but will two kids in the house, that's not really even an issue.

You're going to have morons everywhere.
OasisMan
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CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

Can anyone here offer a description of the difference between organic vs. regular beef products?

$$$$$$

it is a business

people like to think they are doing something good. theyve seen the pic of the cow strung up in the slaughterhouse and feel bad for eating beef.

what can they do besides give up the steak? well theyll eat the hormone/antibiotic free, grass-fed cow because in our minds that cow had a better life.

great marketing. its a "cash cow..."
Mule_lx
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As of January 12, 2016, "grass fed" no longer has any legal meaning. You can label anything grass fed and charge more for it whether it is or not.
CanyonAg77
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queso1 said:

Grass fed doesn't taste as good as corn
Flavor comes from the fat. Corn adds lots of tasty fat.
Quote:

I'm not sure I've ever talked about the benefits of organic...except for the fact that organic milk lasts a long time. I think I've boasted that
No, it does not.

Look at your label. Your "organic" milk uses ultra-pasteurization. Ultra-pasteurized milk lasts a long time. Most "organic" milk uses UP, most regular milk just uses simple pasteurization. Were regular milk subjected to UP, it would last a long time, too.

I don't know why regular milk does not use UP. My guess is that it costs more to use UP, and only those willing to pay extra for "organic" are also willing to pay for UP.
Quote:

You're going to have morons everywhere.
Don't be so hard on yourself. Lots of people fail to read labels, and buy stuff based on emotion, not science.



CanyonAg77
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queso1 said:

Why are the cows so sick that they need so much antibiotics?
What animal, including man, does NOT get sick?
Quote:

Look, we buy grass fed organic. It doesn't affect you.
As others have pointed out, it's anti-scientific. It doesn't effect others much, until uneducated people start clamoring for their feel-good, non-scientific policies to become law. Then it effects everyone.

Also, it hurts industries when people spread lies about their products. When a news story breaks about some product being bad for you, people buy less. If the product is really bad, that's the way the cookie crumbles. If the product is safe, some mommie blogger with a degree in women's studies just cost someone millions. of dollars.

EDIT: To clarify, you simply buying organic doesn't effect others, except for the producers of organic, who are happy you bought into their assertions. It's the vocal zealots who spread misinformation that are the problem. Those of us who disagree hate to see you waste your money, and hate to see you supporting, if indirectly, the misinformation.

See: Alar on apples.
Quote:

I like to think that I'm doing something healthful for my family and I'm willing to pay a bit more
You're operating on feelings, not thinking, in my opinion.
CanyonAg77
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Mule_lx said:

As of January 12, 2016, "grass fed" no longer has any legal meaning. You can label anything grass fed and charge more for it whether it is or not.
Well, corn is a grass, is it not?
EskimoJoe
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The reason we don't have snake oil salesmen any more is that they all started selling organtic food.
shaynew1
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I wonder if everyone concerned about consuming antibiotics in the food chain has any concerns about hitting their dr up for a z pack anytime they feel a little under the weather.
Seven Costanza
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http://themeatguy.blogspot.com/2013/03/grass-fed-beef-its-probably-not-what.html
CanyonAg77
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Seven Costanza said:

http://themeatguy.blogspot.com/2013/03/grass-fed-beef-its-probably-not-what.html
Quote:

Alternative beef has been gaining traction for years now. I think this is a great thing. Just like a booming micro-brew business gives consumers extra choices and brewers increased employment, a plethora of protein options gives us all greater food security and a healthier agricultural economy. But somewhere along the way a few sensationalists jumped into the fray and started a snowball of faulty analysis that has turned into an avalanche of disinformation.

Good summation of the problem most of us have with the organic movement. Also answers the question of "why do you care if I buy organic".
Cancelled
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Canyon:

For every crossfire zealot there's an anti crossfit zealot And for every organic zealot, there's an anti organic zealot.

You are a constant on threads like this. I don't know whether your advocacy against organic is only an online thing, but be careful not to become the thing you hate.
Cancelled
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I don't think the zpack is leading to AB resistant bugs in the same magnitude as the overuse of ABs in the meat production industry.
shaynew1
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I'm not trying to be a D...Is there any data to back up that assertion?
shaynew1
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I know we've got some very experienced vets on here...hopefully they jump in somewhere.
CanyonAg77
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I'm a zealot against ignorance. You thought that organic milk lasted longer. You weren't stupid, but you were ignorant of the facts. Hopefully, you are no longer ignorant.

Look at how the global warming zealots are proposing bad policies. Do you suggest we just sit back and let it happen?

Regarding the milk: My mom likes to have milk around, but she consumes very little each week. She buys "organic" because it stays good longer. I'm sure you'll be amazed to learn that I don't scream at her, pour out the milk, and make her buy regular milk.

She's actually the one who first told me that "organic" lasts longer, and that a friend told her that. That's when I learned about ultra pasteurization. She's a smart woman. I told her that is was UP, not "organic" that made the difference, and recommended that she keep buying "organic".
CanyonAg77
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queso1 said:

I don't think the zpack is leading to AB resistant bugs in the same magnitude as the overuse of ABs in the meat production industry.
I think you're wrong there. Over-prescription of antibiotics in humans is a huge concern. This article claims that as many as half the human prescriptions for antibiotics are unnecessary.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/27/opinion/sunday/how-to-stop-overprescribing-antibiotics.html
Cancelled
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shaynew1 said:

I'm not trying to be a D...Is there any data to back up that assertion?


Its npr, so take it with a grain of salt. But don't believe the pork lobby either

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/03/20/394064680/for-the-love-of-pork-antibiotic-use-on-farms-skyrockets-worldwide
Cancelled
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AG
I agree. I try my best not to use ABs. But the amounts are night and day.
shaynew1
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That just fires some shots at ag but doesn't relate anything to human overuse of antibiotics.
 
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