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Organic beef vs. non? Cows are outdoors...

21,069 Views | 208 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Bitter Old Man
Lungblood
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...anybody else think that the reason these are on the rise compared to 50-100 years ago is that medicine has advanced to a point where instead of these people dying fairly young that medicine today is able to better diagnose and treat these people so that they live longer but with the assorted ailments we've discussed?

I do.

Yes, modern medicine has been masking genetic deficiencies in human and animal populations for quite a while now.


jh88ag
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aggiedent said:

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Does she understand that "cheap hamburger" comes from the same carcass that the more expensive steaks and or roasts come from? You/she should know our food is safer and of higher quality than anytime in history.

She might be referring to what exactly goes into hamburger meat. Some cheap cuts include more than just an inexpensive cut of meat. She may have heard the reports of brain being detected in cheap ground beef. Prions that cause mad cow disease can be found in brain tissue of affected cows, but not in their muscle meat. Maybe that's what she is worried about. Granted, a 1 in eleventy billion issue.
To clarify something (I am not disagreeing with aggiedent in any way)...those reports of brain being detected in ground beef (cheep or otherwise) were not confirmed to the best of my knowledge. Since shortly after the first "mad cow" was found in the U.S. in 2003 (there have been four more since then) brain, spinal cord and certain other tissues have been strictly prohibited from inclusion in human food. So for a person to be potentially exposed to prions, the following would all have to happen: an infected cow (occurs significantly less than 1 in a million) would have to get through a pretty extensive multilevel USDA surveillance program to reach a slaughter facility. Then, brain (or spinal cord) tissue would have to be included into ground beef in direct violation of federal law and under the direct oversight of a federal meat inspector. I guess what I'm really saying is that 1 in eleventy billion may actually overestimate the likelihood.

I know this thread really isn't about mad cow disease, but occasionally I do hear people reference the "brain in ground beef" reports and I want to make sure people understand the facts.
aggiedent
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Quote:

Just an argument which hasn't been raised here regarding auto-immune disorders and other health issues like Crohn's and ulcerative colitis...


...anybody else think that the reason these are on the rise compared to 50-100 years ago is that medicine has advanced to a point where instead of these people dying fairly young that medicine today is able to better diagnose and treat these people so that they live longer but with the assorted ailments we've discussed?

I do.


Lets look at IBD and specifically, Crohn's disease. IBD was first recognized back in the 1800's. Crohn's was "officially" recognized in 1932. Modern American/Western medicine has been able to diagnose IBD and Crohn's with a 95+% accuracy for quite a long time. If you read gastroenterology journals ( American, British, and even middle eastern) almost all have noticed a sharp increase in the number of diagnosed cases in the last 20 years. It is definitely more that just "we are diagnosing better now." Unless you want to argue with the specialists in the field.
BoerneGator
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Towns03 said:

CanyonAg77 said:

Quote:

155 replies so far with not much more than anecdotal evidence.
Several responses from people with degrees from A&M in the subject matter and hundreds of years of combined experience is a little more authoritative than mere anecdotal evidence.
that might be, but we didn't get a link to a study on the topic in the OP until page 5. don't take that post personally - it's just an observation. I started the thread to get data/evidence/studies that deflates her position.

I'll let her know that a guy from the internet named CanyonAg77 says the regular HEB hamburger is cool to eat.
I suggest you simply accept the fact that your wife will not be disabused of the notion that "HEB hamburger" is NOT safe to eat and look for some other opportunities at efficiency/economy. The actual cost difference is surely not worth the "squeeze", if you ask me. Besides, if you yourself can't be convinced by such overwhelming "anecdotal" evidence from the TexAgs Outdoor Board Brain Trust, there's no hope for a true-believer such as your wife.

You'll not find scientific studies to refute her bias. It's not unlike the climate change/AGW fiasco in that it's a stacked deck. But those of us who've grown up producing food and fiber and been around it our entire lives scoff at much of what the "scientific community" comes up with as ideal/preferred.
aggiedent
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Here's a scientifically proven fact: Supporting your wife's views brings a lot more happiness and love rather than trying to argue and disprove her views. Especially the trivial stuff.
shaynew1
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aggiedent said:

Here's a scientifically proven fact: Supporting your wife's views brings a lot more happiness and love rather than trying to argue and disprove her views. Especially the trivial stuff.


Amen
jh88ag
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aggiedent said:

Here's a scientifically proven fact: Supporting your wife's views brings a lot more happiness and love rather than trying to argue and disprove her views. Especially the trivial stuff.
I believe that is a good way to end this thread. Lots of good discussion.
AgEng06
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Shorty said:

aggiedent said:

Here's a scientifically proven fact: Supporting your wife's views brings a lot more happiness and love rather than trying to argue and disprove her views. Especially the trivial stuff.
I believe that is a good way to end this thread. Lots of good discussion.
And this is the most frequent reason I get in trouble. I just can't let something go when I either know I'm right, or think some other idea is ridiculous or not grounded in fact.
schmellba99
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aggiedent said:

Quote:

Just an argument which hasn't been raised here regarding auto-immune disorders and other health issues like Crohn's and ulcerative colitis...


...anybody else think that the reason these are on the rise compared to 50-100 years ago is that medicine has advanced to a point where instead of these people dying fairly young that medicine today is able to better diagnose and treat these people so that they live longer but with the assorted ailments we've discussed?

I do.


Lets look at IBD and specifically, Crohn's disease. IBD was first recognized back in the 1800's. Crohn's was "officially" recognized in 1932. Modern American/Western medicine has been able to diagnose IBD and Crohn's with a 95+% accuracy for quite a long time. If you read gastroenterology journals ( American, British, and even middle eastern) almost all have noticed a sharp increase in the number of diagnosed cases in the last 20 years. It is definitely more that just "we are diagnosing better now." Unless you want to argue with the specialists in the field.
I guess my question would be to see the data on testing frequency over the years.

Fact of the matter is that the more you test for a certain condition that you know to look for, the more likely you are going to be that you find that condition. We see a significant increase in diagnosed cases often because we (society, smart people) develop equipment or methods of testing that become significantly cheaper and easier to obtain - when something is cheap and easy to do that does not require specialist appointments, etc. odds are your normal GP is going to go ahead and check the box to have that condition tested for.

in 1932 I doubt many doctors knew much about Chroh's disease, and those that did were likely concentrated in small pockets of the country. It really hasn't been until the last few decades that there has been such a broad spectrum of physicians with specialties such as Chron's. How many specialists were there that concentrated on something like this in the 30's, 40's, etc.?

With the mapping of the human DNA sequence, technology and our ability to find abnormalities has increased by orders of magnitude.
BoerneGator
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Quote:

Fact of the matter is that the more you test for a certain condition that you know to look for, the more likely you are going to be that you find that condition.
Aflatoxin in corn is a good example of this. It probably existed for many decades without issue before it became the "critical" issue it has become of late. Hysteria!
Bitter Old Man
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Are you a Doctor?
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

I'll let her know that a guy from the internet named CanyonAg77 says the regular HEB hamburger is cool to eat.
Well, since it was likely some random anonymous blogger on the Internet who told her it wasn't safe in the first place, I guess it all evens out.
schmellba99
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Bitter Old Man said:

Are you a Doctor?
Hell no, not nearly smart enough to be one.
Direct Enter Enter
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aggiedent said:

Here's a scientifically proven fact: Supporting your wife's views brings a lot more happiness and love rather than trying to argue and disprove her views. Especially the trivial stuff.
Except for her now spreading those views to her friends and children, who in turn do the same. And eventually we end up with ballot initiatives that force modification of agricultural practices without a bit of scientific proof that the previous practices were bad. All because of the feels.
Lungblood
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Except for her now spreading those views to her friends and children, who in turn do the same. And eventually we end up with ballot initiatives that force modification of agricultural practices without a bit of scientific proof that the previous practices were bad. All because of the feels.

Exactly... I just overheard my idiot coworker spouting off to one of the other idiots about teenage girls developing faster bc of "all the hormones they inject in meat". He's too stupid to argue with, so I don't even try anymore.
CanyonAg77
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Lungblood said:

Quote:


Except for her now spreading those views to her friends and children, who in turn do the same. And eventually we end up with ballot initiatives that force modification of agricultural practices without a bit of scientific proof that the previous practices were bad. All because of the feels.

Exactly... I just overheard my idiot coworker spouting off to one of the other idiots about teenage girls developing faster bc of "all the hormones they inject in meat". He's too stupid to argue with, so I don't even try anymore.
My favorite was the co-worker of my SIL. Said coworker was working a low level library job for around $25K a year, and had $50K+ in student loans. She offered the theory that the sharp rise in gluten intolerance in the last few years must be due to GMO wheat.



For those who don't know, there are no GMO wheats on the market.
aggiedent
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Quote:

Except for her now spreading those views to her friends and children, who in turn do the same. And eventually we end up with ballot initiatives that force modification of agricultural practices without a bit of scientific proof that the previous practices were bad. All because of the feels.

We're talking about human beings. Most of our lives are based on "the feels" as you call it. Why do we have sex? Why do we marry a certain woman? Why do we like to play golf, fish, collect guns, or argue over which cooler is best? And that's just guys......woman are 10 times more "feely."

Organic agricultural practices are not going to end the world so why are you worrying about it? Have a frickin beer and relax.
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

Organic agricultural practices are not going to end the world so why are you worrying about it? Have a frickin beer and relax.
Yeah, and no one will believe all the hype about global warming, the dangers of private ownership of guns, the horror of hunting animals, SUVs, wind energy, etc. etc. etc.

Nothing wrong with countering ignorance before it becomes government policy.


And is the beer made with organic, natural, non-GMO, cruelty-free, gluten-free, hops?
Lungblood
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Organic agricultural practices are not going to end the world so why are you worrying about it? Have a frickin beer and relax.
Because misinformation IN THIS DAY AND AGE can destroy people's livelihoods.
SunrayAg
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Towns03 said:

aggiedent said:

Quote:

Does she understand that "cheap hamburger" comes from the same carcass that the more expensive steaks and or roasts come from? You/she should know our food is safer and of higher quality than anytime in history.

She might be referring to what exactly goes into hamburger meat. Some cheap cuts include more than just an inexpensive cut of meat. She may have heard the reports of brain being detected in cheap ground beef. Prions that cause mad cow disease can be found in brain tissue of affected cows, but not in their muscle meat. Maybe that's what she is worried about. Granted, a 1 in eleventy billion issue.
no - sorry, I wasn't clear. by cheap I mean non-organic or grass-fed. She thinks the grass fed and organic labels are free from antibiotics/hormones that can have a serious long term affect on our kids health.


Not trying to be a jerk, but does your wife allow the kids to drink tap water? What about bottled water? What about living in a house with carpet or drywall? Can they walk down the sidewalk? Are they allowed to ride in a car? Are they allowed to watch tv? What about use a smartphone? Are they allowed to live in a humid climate? Are they allowed to live in a metropolitan area and step outside and breathe? Are they allowed to ever step outside the house on a sunny day without every square inch of skin covered with sunblock or upf protected clothing? Are they allowed to attend public school?




Every one of those things has greater potential to negatively effect long term health than the food supply...
eric76
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queso1 said:

Grass fed doesn't taste as good as corn.

I'm not sure I've ever talked about the benefits of organic...except for the fact that organic milk lasts a long time. I think I've boasted that, but will two kids in the house, that's not really even an issue.

You're going to have morons everywhere.
It doesn't taste as good as corn if you want a less beefy taste.

You have to cook it a bit differently, but if cooked correctly, grass fed beef is better. Cook it gently and it is very good.
eric76
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queso1 said:

Why are the cows so sick that they need so much antibiotics?
It helps them gain weight faster.

At what it costs to feed them in a feed lot, you want them to gain weight as fast as possible.
aggiedent
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Quote:

Because misinformation IN THIS DAY AND AGE can destroy people's livelihoods.

Oh for God's sake, really?

#1. People can choose to buy whatever food, for whatever reason they want. The fact is, the organic segment is growing. You, nor anybody else, is going to change that. The younger generation driving this, will be suspicious of any scientific evidence presented to them. If it ever changes, it will be driven by what an even younger generation places importance on.

#2. History is littered with things (usually scientific changes) that have destroyed people's livelihoods.
A small list off the top of my head: gas works (natural gas), typewriters (computers), albums/CD's (digital), horse buggies (cars), many assembly line jobs (robotics), film and film cameras (digital), the point and shoot camera market (cell phones), etc. In the grand scheme of things "organic farming" is hardly earth shattering.

Did you know only 15% the original fortune 500 companies in 1955 are still in existence? Everything changes. Industries will disappear. Jobs will be lost. Livelihoods ruined. But you know what, through all of this, more jobs will always be created by technology than jobs lost. That's a fact.
Lungblood
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#2. History is littered with things (usually scientific changes) that have destroyed people's livelihoods.

A small list off the top of my head: typewriters (computers), albums/CD's (digital), horse buggies (cars), many assembly line jobs (robotics), film and film cameras (digital), the point and shoot camera market (cell phones), etc. In the grand scheme of things "organic farming" is hardly earth shattering.

This is INOVATION (GOOD) vs MISINFORMATION (BAD).

Direct Enter Enter
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Lungblood said:


Quote:

#2. History is littered with things (usually scientific changes) that have destroyed people's livelihoods.

A small list off the top of my head: typewriters (computers), albums/CD's (digital), horse buggies (cars), many assembly line jobs (robotics), film and film cameras (digital), the point and shoot camera market (cell phones), etc. In the grand scheme of things "organic farming" is hardly earth shattering.

This is INOVATION (GOOD) vs MISINFORMATION (BAD).


Eggs in California cost over 40% more that eggs in the midwest. One of the reasons is California's 2008 proposition 2 which forced changes to laying hen cages and was pushed by the Humane Society of the United States. It is a textbook example of misinformation hitting the ballot box.
aggiedent
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Quote:

This is INOVATION (GOOD) vs MISINFORMATION (BAD).

The internet allows us access to just about all the information we need to make a good/bad decision buying almost anything today. After that, it's up to the individual. It's certainly on up to you to instruct them and it's not up to the government to either.

It's just like 44 oz soft drinks. They are terrible for you, but if an individual wants to buy them, that is up to THEM!!!!!
Lungblood
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It's just like 44 oz soft drinks.
wut? obtuse... that's what you're being man. OBTUSE.
aggiedent
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I like veering around in conversation.
Bitter Old Man
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Tailhookin Devilpup said:



Eggs in California cost over 40% more that eggs in the midwest. One of the reasons is California's 2008 proposition 2 which forced changes to laying hen cages and was pushed by the Humane Society of the United States. It is a textbook example of misinformation hitting the ballot box.

An interesting point. I would assume that the 40% increase is the costs being passed on to consumers, who in turn voted for the increase on themselves. So, what is the problem with that? Other than the increase in cost on the minority of voters who were against it.

I'm not advocating for the same laws, because I'm really not concerned about the quality of life of an animal with a pea-sized brain that can continue to live for a pretty good amount of time after having said head removed.

That all being said, I have compared the product of a traditional caged hen vs. a *truly* pasture raised hen, and there is no comparison. The pastured egg cooks better, tastes better, and supposedly has better nutrient content than the other. The yolks don't even look like they came from the same species. The retail price difference is massive between the two, so they each have their place in the world.

However, this is an example of when volume-production agriculture has found a way to mass-produce the product, but the process diminishes the quality of the product. Today's average consumer has no idea, they just look for the cheapest eggs at the grocery store. They are not even aware there could be a difference.
BoerneGator
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Quote:

That all being said, I have compared the product of a traditional caged hen vs. a *truly* pasture raised hen, and there is no comparison. The pastured egg cooks better, tastes better, and supposedly has better nutrient content than the other. The yolks don't even look like they came from the same species. The retail price difference is massive between the two, so they each have their place in the world.
While "taste" is a subjective criterion, you'll not be able to substantiate your claim re: nutrient content/quality. Caged hens are/can be fed virtually everything "yard" hens have access to. After that, constant refrigeration is the most important factor in maintaining quality and freshness. As was alluded to earlier in the thread, the main concern of opponents of caged hens revolves around ethical issues of confinement.

It's my considered opinion that the chickens are indifferent as to their surroundings, but since they can't talk to us, we're left to make up our own minds about the matter.
TheVarian
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Was there an Xbox thread started?
SunrayAg
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aggiedent said:

Quote:

Because misinformation IN THIS DAY AND AGE can destroy people's livelihoods.

Oh for God's sake, really?

#1. People can choose to buy whatever food, for whatever reason they want. The fact is, the organic segment is growing. You, nor anybody else, is going to change that. The younger generation driving this, will be suspicious of any scientific evidence presented to them. If it ever changes, it will be driven by what an even younger generation places importance on.

#2. History is littered with things (usually scientific changes) that have destroyed people's livelihoods.
A small list off the top of my head: gas works (natural gas), typewriters (computers), albums/CD's (digital), horse buggies (cars), many assembly line jobs (robotics), film and film cameras (digital), the point and shoot camera market (cell phones), etc. In the grand scheme of things "organic farming" is hardly earth shattering.

Did you know only 15% the original fortune 500 companies in 1955 are still in existence? Everything changes. Industries will disappear. Jobs will be lost. Livelihoods ruined. But you know what, through all of this, more jobs will always be created by technology than jobs lost. That's a fact.
Actually, misinformation causes people to die.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2371675.stm

African nation facing famine, rejected GMO food aid because the fearmongerers convinced the leaders that letting people starve to death was better than letting them eat GMO crops.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2013/03/07/173611461/in-a-grain-of-golden-rice-a-world-of-controversy-over-gmo-foods

Golden rice could save the lives of 670,000 children under 5 per year, but greenpeace is trying to keep it from being released to the people who need it.

Hooray ignorance. Hooray fearmongering!


eric76
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SteveBott said:

Interesting thread. Not good as the bear in my house thread but worth the read. I have never ate any organic anything, as far as I know, meat, veggies etc. On the rare occasion I go to a grocery store I have noticed the price difference in the vegetables dept. Seems pretty steep.

What are folks opinion on organic veggies and fruits? Seems to my uneducated opinion is that it would be easier to document the difference and benefits in these foods.
I grew up eating lots of organic vegetables. We didn't call it that -- we called them "from the garden". Our garden was about an acre in size and was sitting next to the irrigation well so we always had plenty of water for it.
eric76
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CanyonAg77 said:

There are no differences and benefits. If you're worried about chemicals, simply buy American, and forget about coffee, bananas, etc. Other countries allow pesticides we do not.

Some will claim better taste, but that's hogwash. A plant needs fertility, such as nitrogen, which it takes up as elemental N2. It has no idea if that nitrogen came from anhydrous ammonia produced from natural gas, or if it came from a decomposing cow patty.

99 times out of 100, the "better taste" will come because its locally grown, picked ripe, and from a good tasting variety. Lots of grocery store offerings are picked green, ripened with ethylene gas (approved for organic) and varieties selected not for taste, but for ability to be machine harvested and stand up to shipping.

But then, apparently I'm a zealot for giving you facts.
Some countries even have to hide the source of origin of their food so it is routed through other countries and it is listed as a product of that country, not the original country. From what I understand, honey from China is often done that way.
Bitter Old Man
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BoerneGator said:

Quote:

That all being said, I have compared the product of a traditional caged hen vs. a *truly* pasture raised hen, and there is no comparison. The pastured egg cooks better, tastes better, and supposedly has better nutrient content than the other. The yolks don't even look like they came from the same species. The retail price difference is massive between the two, so they each have their place in the world.
While "taste" is a subjective criterion, you'll not be able to substantiate your claim re: nutrient content/quality. Caged hens are/can be fed virtually everything "yard" hens have access to. After that, constant refrigeration is the most important factor in maintaining quality and freshness. As was alluded to earlier in the thread, the main concern of opponents of caged hens revolves around ethical issues of confinement.

It's my considered opinion that the chickens are indifferent as to their surroundings, but since they can't talk to us, we're left to make up our own minds about the matter.


I'm not sure what you consider substantive for the nutrition claims, but....
http://news.psu.edu/story/166143/2010/07/20/research-shows-eggs-pastured-chickens-may-be-more-nutritious

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21673178/

https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/45132/PDF/1

I'm not talking about "cage-free" eggs, that's a marketing ploy. I'm taking about true Pasture raised eggs that live in a pasture.


 
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