Leaning ToO is not my Forte in this game.

Will be on in an hour

So Coach Fran asked me about how to get better at PVP. I can do a series on how to get better at PVP in general and ToO specifically, if people are interested. I have already made a post relating to this, so I have already done most of this work you will find below. If you don't care about PVP, then I would skip this post.

I have learned this through playing PVP around 300 hours, watching top PVPers play for 150+ hours, and by doing a little research. Also, I have only played one game of ToO where I didn't believe my team could win if we played the same team again ... unfortunately that happened last night (sorry Telco, we will get you to the lighthouse next weekend).

Weapons:

The first installment will be about weapons; if you aren't using the best weapons you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, which is ok, but if you are already frustrated, you may want to use the best weapons in the game. I am not suggesting to use only these weapons, but if you are facing decent players and want to win then I would recommend these weapons (and you need to practice with them).

First understand that two primaries outshine the others, so you will have the highest probability of success using The Last Word or Thorn

Run TLW with aggressive ballistics and perfect balance and thorn with aggressive ballistics and send it.

Practice using these weapons. Tap the TLW in all situations while ADS (aiming down sights) and the
tap speed should be proportional to how far your target is away (tap faster when closer). If you hip fire TLW, it is a three shot kill (full auto is then acceptable), but make sure your opponent is pretty close. Get used to the Thorn's recoil and make it a headshot machine with send it.

Play rumble with both of these weapons. Rumble will teach you how to be aggressive and win one on one matchups. Most people will just play control if they want to play a game of PVP, but rumble will get you into the most gun fights, therefore rumble will be the most effective teacher, but I would only suggest this if you are already competent; control feels much safer.

You want a shotgun with shotpackage, max range and high impact: Felwinters, Party Crasher, or Matador are all great choices. Learn how to slide with a shotgun; it will help you if you need to be aggressive and are outside of sg range.

Note: If you do not have one of these sgs and you want an interim replacement, buy a Judgment from the new monarchy vendor and re-roll it. This is the ideal roll: aggressive ballistics, shotpackage (necessary), re-inforced barrel (you need a range perk here), then luck in the chamber or kneepads.

If you want to learn how to snipe and be more passive, play skirmish. Get a sniper with high aim assist and shortgaze or longview 10, hidden hand (not completely necessary), and something that helps you ADS faster (snapshot or injection mold), then either unflinching or performance bonus. Good new re-rollable sniper choices are low grade humility and Her Benevolence. The old LDR, Longbow, and Prudence are good snipers as well.

For a rocket launcher you want prox det (grenades and horseshoes), high velocity, and high blast radius.

There are solid rocket launchers available from vendors with prox det or you can roll one.

These are the loadouts that the best PVPers use. You obviously will have to figure out a lot about strategy and positioning on your own but at least having the right weapons can help, but you can learn that through playing the game and watching better players than you play.

FAQ:
Why no Vex?

TLW absolutely destroys Vex when aimed properly, also the Vex is not a hit scan weapon, so it is harder to land shots at medium range.

Why no Hawkmoon?

Hawkmoon is a fine weapon, but thorn outclasses it completely and takes its niche.

Why no pulse rifles?
Legendary pulse rifles are the best legendary primaries in the game, but pulse rifles are far less versatile than the exotic hand cannons. The problem when using a pulse rifle is that you may have problems at shorter ranges where hand cannons do just fine. Pulse rifles only have slightly better range than TLW and a longer kill time. Also, facing strafing and moving opponents, it becomes challenging to land an entire burst from a pulse rifle which kills DPS and thus extends TTK while with handcannons you can pace your shots.

Why no fusion rifles?
Fusion rifles are not bad at all, and I honestly don't have a problem with anyone using one during regular gameplay, but here is why top players do not use fusions.

1. Blink counters fusion rifles well

2. It's hard to be aggressive with a fusion rifle (especially when people camp around corners with shotguns), and if someone is in good fusion rifle range, a good player will not challenge you (once he figures out you can actually use it), so this essentially slows down the game since neither side wants to challenge. Fusions are great against players who don't know what the charging sound means.

Big baseball game tonight you nerds

Nice post Dwit. Added you to the friends list (Prime0882).

With ToO I've decided to finally level up my TLW. From what I read I was using it wrong by trying to use it from the hip.

Have a Found Verdict that I can't seem to be useful with.

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Nice post Dwit. Added you to the friends list (Prime0882).

With ToO I've decided to finally level up my TLW. From what I read I was using it wrong by trying to use it from the hip.

Have a Found Verdict that I can't seem to be useful with.

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Ok, we can definitely play some time!

I would say that using hip fire with TLW is a tool that can be useful, but it is very limited in its effectiveness. If you are hitting your opponent for 66 or less damage (w/ hip fire) you are too far... 67 damage - you are on the border, but probably shouldn't be hip firing; 68 damage - you are in hip fire range (but is not required unless your opponent is super close to you). I get most of my hip fire kills when backing away from people trying to sg me.

Obviously, you will just have to get a feel for this, but starting out I would use the rule of not hip firing unless your opponent has a shotgun in his hands.

Found verdict is a fine shotgun, but I would take any shotgun with shotpackage and max range over found verdict. If shot package was ever eliminated (honestly maybe it should be for competitive balance), I would say found verdict is the best shotgun. However, shotpackage increases shotgun kill distance so much, you can't really get away with not using it against good players.

Ok I am on now for Crota goodness

I want to be on one legendary dwit ToO run, pretty please.

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I want to be on one legendary dwit ToO run, pretty please.

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Ok, I am thinking you, Telco, and I could run through on Friday or Saturday, pending any other plans

Hey tex, my ps4 is not sending a message but we are good to start Crota

Hold em AGS

Dammit my internet went to ****. Sorry guys I am a no go

I'm jumping on in 5 if anyone wants to run anything

This is a fantastic post Dwit, thanks for putting all of your knowledge on paper here.

What are your thoughts on controller look sensitivity? How high do you run it?

I accidentally ripped my Thorn apart. Oh well, about halfway through the process of re-earning it.

I have tried 3,4,5 and I currently play on 4. For most people I recommend 2 to 5. This sensitivity allows you to use your primary with effectiveness and prevents twitching while sniping. Go as high as you can without sacrificing your primary shot (ie can land consistent headshots with thorn/TLW) against people who actually strafe.

The only players who play on 7+ are dedicated blink shotgunners who only rely on either arc bolt + a single thorn shot or their shotgun. I wouldn't recommend this style except for young people with good reaction times, and honestly if bungie ever gets rid of shotpackage those guys will have to learn a new playstyle.

I also just tried the "Jumper" control profile, so melee is on R3, jump is R1, and that was a nightmare.

PS controller stick is either too sensitive, or I'm too pushy. I'd keep melee-ing accidentally while running and shooting b/c of R3 sticking.

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Hey tex, my ps4 is not sending a message but we are good to start Crota

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Sorry I missed you guys. I never got the message.



Dwit,
Thanks for the tips.

What are some the perks we should be looking for on shotguns (and what shotguns) and snipers? What is the "perfect roll" and "acceptable rolls".

Her benevolence and low grade humility are the ones we want right now?

Finally dropped my sensitivity down to 3 tonight and my play improved greatly. I may try 2 tomorrow, but 3 is solid for me.

Yea I was playing some PvP with dwit in chat. And simply from switching how a shoot TLW my k/d went from sucktastic and always being bottom of the barrel to mid pack sometimes top of the pack with a positive k/d. I still have my moments of suck but I did see an instant improvement.

Coach Fran 3 and out

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Sorry I missed you guys. I never got the message.



Dwit,
Thanks for the tips.

What are some the perks we should be looking for on shotguns (and what shotguns) and snipers? What is the "perfect roll" and "acceptable rolls".

Her benevolence and low grade humility are the ones we want right now?

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The four shotguns I mention are the only ones I can recommend in good conscious. Hard luck charm and Rude Awakening are OK, but you can't take aggressive ballistics because they have low base range so you need a barrel perk that increases range.

Acceptable barrels: aggressive, liner comp, field choke, accurized (things that give impact and range w/ exception of aggressive which doesn't help range so you only want it on sgs near the range cap).

Second column: Shotpackage - there is no other option (if you really wanted to choose something else full auto then rangefinder would be my second two options)

Third column: anything that increases range, reinforced barrel is best

Fourth: Nothing here is going to ruin your sg, but it can make it better, nothing is required, but I would highly recommend Luck in the Chamber or Kneepads

I may have to do some research for acceptable rolls on snipers, so I will get to that later, but I have already given you some options. I honestly prefer the old LDR and Longbow to new snipers (both have enough impact to kill in one shot through the revive over-shield); scope is the most important thing anyway, and I would only use the two scopes I mentioned above.

I have a matador 64 with

• Smart Drift Control/ Field Choke/Aggressive Ballistics
• Shot Package
• Speed Reload/Snapshot/Rifled Barrel
• Cascade

that is incredible. I have been switching between Snapshot and rifled barrel and so far I am leaning toward rifled barrel for normal crucible. I know cascade sucks, but until I get another to drop, I am not spending motes to get kneepads.

For Rocket Launchers, if you can get The Ash Factory from crucible or The Dreamwaker from PoE, they are 2 of the best in the game with the right roll. If you aren't lucky enough to get a drop, I think its New Monarchy that has one that is pretty good available for purchase.

The ideal roll (for PvP only) is

• Hard Launch
• Clown Cartridge for free rockets (although some people prefer Tripod I would rather RNG occasionally grant me more rockets)
• Javelin
• Grenades and Horseshoes

Basically you want to max out velocity and blast radius with proximity detonation

For crucible, clown cartridge rules. But for ToO, I would probably prefer Tripod. I have a One Way Ticket I use a lot with Grenades & Horshoes and Clown Cartridge but I get in trouble reloading after every shot with it sometimes.

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For crucible, clown cartridge rules. But for ToO, I would probably prefer Tripod. I have a One Way Ticket I use a lot with Grenades & Horshoes and Clown Cartridge but I get in trouble reloading after every shot with it sometimes.

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Yeah I think I am going to leave my Dreamwaker with the current roll (Clown Cartridge/Javelin/Prox) and reroll my Ash Factory to get Tripod and Prox Det. I think the biggest thing to remember is that tracking is not good for PvP especially ToO. The ability to hip fire a rocket launcher is a literal lifesaver in PvP

Thanks for all the PVP tips. I mainly play PoE, but it seems like once you get to 34 then PoE will be almost obsolete without treasure keys. My focus is now on PVP and ToO.

The new best rocket launcher in the game is the on from ToO in my opinion. Large blast radius and good velocity -- has tripod and proxy det. Unless you are going to run Ghally, there is nothing better.

But really, you need proxy det for your launcher or you are doing it wrong.

Nice to know that when I purchased secret handshake a few weeks back to be my shotgun for PvP that I had a shotgun with several of the perks y'all have been talking about. Need to just finish leveling it up now.

Secret Handshake is OK but I got a Judgement instead because I got tired of the low impact of Secret Handshake leaving people alive.

Good to know. I'm one of those guys that plays PvP usually only during Iron Banner or when I need to knock out bounties for exotic weapons.

I tried using some of these principles last night, and had a pretty successful run (by my standards) just using Invictive. The fire rate was very slow and lack of range hurt my several times, but there's some great advice here. Kill, ready to run some ToO?

Not until I can hit lvl 34 on my characters. Maybe after I can pick up some etheric light from IB this week.

Your first bounty of the week guarantees a key.

I am going to get home around 6c and plan on doing the bounties and nightfall on both characters and would like to knock out 1 32 POE before jumping into IB.

I'll be on to farm keys, do nightfall, and start 32 POEs

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The new best rocket launcher in the game is the on from ToO in my opinion. Large blast radius and good velocity -- has tripod and proxy det. Unless you are going to run Ghally, there is nothing better.

But really, you need proxy det for your launcher or you are doing it wrong.

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It has a lower blast radius and velocity than Dreamwaker, but higher stability and reload so I would take Dreamwaker with the right roll over Tomorrow's Answer but both are really good

Run IB this week for the Etheric Light at levels 3 and 5 and once you hit level 3 you can get an Efrideet's spear to drop which is one of the better snipers for PvP with the right roll