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international experience

3,910 Views | 27 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by third coast..
agrams
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I am entertaining some options of working internationally for my company for a few years - most likely Singapore or ME/Dubai.

I was curious if anyone has had similar experiences - what to look for/avoid, etc and if you felt career wise if it was a good move for you, or if you just did it for the adventure.

I would also be taking my wife and 2 boys (5/7), so there is that to consider.

TIA

edit to add it is for an O&G OEM. I am currently the lead engineer for our main offices in Fort Worth, but want to broaden my experience some (get more awareness and experience on the sales/service side of things). Most likely the international role would not be in design engineering, but in sales/service.
BuffaloREV
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Having just finished 3 1/2 years in Kuala Lumpur, I would say you have to do it. Can't recommend Singapore highly enough. I took my kids when they were two and five and we left when they were five and eight Outstanding experience for them, and it will especially be a no brainer if they pay for your school in Singapore.
Vernada
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Absolutely Singapore.

As long as the expat package is decent, jump all over it.
TheMasterplan
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I've been working overseas about 6 years now continuously. The international experience has been great and has really progressed my career in multiple aspects.

Work can be a bit slower at times but that gives you more time to look at things from a broader, more technical view as opposed to efficiency.

Every well is really important whereas in the US land not so much where they just plug and chug a design each time.

I've developed significant supply chain and business case experience working overseas that I would've never got in the US. Add tenders/proposals to that as well.

Add to that the friends I've made (and international girls of course) and it makes it all worth it. I am single.

Seen a few american wives that don't get into it as much - I would highly recommend getting her a work visa so she can work if she wants. Even if it's just at a cafe or something. Or helping out an english school.



SwissAgg
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TheMasterplan said:



Seen a few american wives that don't get into it as much - I would highly recommend getting her a work visa so she can work if she wants. Even if it's just at a cafe or something. Or helping out an english school.




As Masterplan says, make sure your wife is on board with this. It makes all the difference in the world.

I worked in Saudi Arabia for a while and spent a lot of time in Dubai, but my wife wasn't with me.

I have been abroad for 19 years, and I don't regret it. Make sure your company pays for the

kids' education because it costs a lot of money in Expat schools.
wessimo
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Would definitely jump on that if it is Singapore with an expat package. It is a clean, efficient city and a great base for traveling around SE Asia.

My wife and I were expats in Hong Kong for a couple years pre-kids and it was an amazing experience.
aggie_wes
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Think of all the exotic woods you would have easy access to
JimboFlyFisher
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I would visit Dubai with wife a while before moving. To each their own, but it would be the last place
I would take my family.
agrams
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all the tools would get sold or put in storage while we are gone, which surprised the wife when I said that would be my plan.
aggie_wes
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Don't know what else you could do, really. Not like you're going to get a sweet garage workshop in Singapore.
59 South
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2 words: do. it.
SwissAgg
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AgInLV said:

I would visit Dubai with wife a while before moving. To each their own, but it would be the last place
I would take my family.


Dubai is not bad for a couple of years. I was in Saudi
Arabia for a year and spent a lot if time in Dubai.
JimboFlyFisher
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As a single guy Dubai wouldn't be bad, but wife and kids not so much.

Wherever you go make sure you take the wife before making the final decision, and get her buy-in.
Snapper01
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What things did you encounter in Dubai that make you say it's not good for a wife or kids?
BuffaloREV
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I'd wait til you see your living arrangement options. Singapore May have less potential, but in KL many friends had houses or condos with room to accommodate tools/hobbies etc

But you would need to consider electric transformers, which we did
HollywoodBQ
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AgInLV said:

I would visit Dubai with wife a while before moving. To each their own, but it would be the last place
I would take my family.
How long did you live in the Middle East?
HollywoodBQ
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SwissAgg said:

Dubai is not bad for a couple of years. I was in Saudi Arabia for a year and spent a lot if time in Dubai.
Where were you in KSA?
HollywoodBQ
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agrams said:

I would also be taking my wife and 2 boys (5/7), so there is that to consider.
I'll start with your sons first. 5 and 7 are the ages my brother and I were when we moved from Alaska to Saudi Arabia.

I'll never forget landing in Dhahran, claiming our luggage and waiting outside for our Korean drivers to collect us in a Chevy Suburban to take us to our new home (Which was a 2 bedroom single-wide. In Alaska, at least we had a 3 bedroom double-wide).

There were all these folks running around in strange looking clothing so I innocently asked my mom, "How come all these people are dressed like they're from The Bible?". My mom told me to not say that.

Going to school overseas (Saudi Arabia in my case), it is most likely that your kids will be in an International School with an American curriculum. These days, there are some "IB" (International Baccalaureate) schools which have a slightly different curriculum (its origins are French). There will be International Schools for folks from other countries too - Indian, British, in some cases French, German or Japanese depending on the country.

The student body will be very diverse. Let me put it this way, since I went to school as a kid in Saudi Arabia, I know the difference between Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Filipino, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Thai, etc. whereas in the USA, it's all sort of just "Asian".

Your kids will have exposure to, and make friends with, kids from all over Asia, Europe, North America and Australia. To a lesser degree, South America and Africa.

Your kids will have the opportunity to play some American sports like Basketball or Baseball. And they will have an opportunity to learn more international sports like - Cricket, Rugby, Football (Soccer), etc.

In school, they will have the opportunity to learn a foreign language. In my school, we all had to take Arabic from Kindergarten through 5th Grade. From 6th Grade, we had the choice of taking French or Arabic so all the cool kids switched to French.

The teachers your kids have will be top notch but more importantly, the way I describe the overall community is like this.
Imagine growing up in a community where:
  • Everybody's dad has a job (otherwise they don't live there)
  • Nobody (with rare exceptions) has any extended family living in the same town (no grandparents, aunts/uncles/cousins)
  • Everybody has at least one College Educated parent (some of the mom's are trophy wives, some of the dad's married up)
  • There is essentially no crime
  • World Travel is mandatory
To be fair - Even though it's really happening, it is an artificial existence. Which makes the next part difficult.

I left Saudi when I was 15 because my mom wouldn't let me go to Boarding School. Nowadays, the schools go up through 12th Grade so that wouldn't be a problem.

The adjustment back to the USA was difficult and many of my friends did not handle it well. The ones who managed that transition have done well. The ones who fell through the cracks have struggled. These days with Facebook, Twitter, etc., it's much easier to keep in touch with your old friends.

As a kid though, trying to explain where you're from, what you know, etc. is virtually impossible. Kids are more interested in whether you've been to Disney World than if you've been to The Louvre. Adults are more interested in whether you've been to Paris or Luxor in Las Vegas than if you've been to the real Eiffel Tower in France, or the Valley of the Kings in Egypt.

It's not an impossible adjustment back to the USA but, let's just say that if you stay too long, your sons will have to decide whether they're going to crawl back into themselves and try to fit in, or, if they're going to embrace that lonely existence of knowing more about the world than their peers, their teachers and most of their friends parents.

It's tough and there are risks but, I believe it's worth doing. I think it's a great experience for kids.

EDIT: I just reminded myself of when I was working "On the Lot" at Disney. One of my colleagues went over to Orlando for work and was able to go on the Disney Safari thing they have. He was describing how neat it was to see all the animals from Africa. I asked him - honestly - if he saw any Cheetah kills or anything exciting like that (because that was one of the neatest things I got to see in Kenya). He told me that no, the animals are all contained in cleverly enclosed habitats so that they don't actually interact with each other. I just didn't see the appeal. Conversely, he didn't understand why I thought seeing a Cheetah kill was so awesome.
Aggie71013
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HollywoodBQ said:

agrams said:

I would also be taking my wife and 2 boys (5/7), so there is that to consider.
I'll start with your sons first. 5 and 7 are the ages my brother and I were when we moved from Alaska to Saudi Arabia.

I'll never forget landing in Dhahran, claiming our luggage and waiting outside for our Korean drivers to collect us in a Chevy Suburban to take us to our new home (Which was a 2 bedroom single-wide. In Alaska, at least we had a 3 bedroom double-wide).

There were all these folks running around in strange looking clothing so I innocently asked my mom, "How come all these people are dressed like they're from The Bible?". My mom told me to not say that.

Going to school overseas (Saudi Arabia in my case), it is most likely that your kids will be in an International School with an American curriculum. These days, there are some "IB" (International Baccalaureate) schools which have a slightly different curriculum (its origins are French). There will be International Schools for folks from other countries too - Indian, British, in some cases French, German or Japanese depending on the country.

The student body will be very diverse. Let me put it this way, since I went to school as a kid in Saudi Arabia, I know the difference between Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Filipino, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Thai, etc. whereas in the USA, it's all sort of just "Asian".

Your kids will have exposure to, and make friends with, kids from all over Asia, Europe, North America and Australia. To a lesser degree, South America and Africa.

Your kids will have the opportunity to play some American sports like Basketball or Baseball. And they will have an opportunity to learn more international sports like - Cricket, Rugby, Football (Soccer), etc.

In school, they will have the opportunity to learn a foreign language. In my school, we all had to take Arabic from Kindergarten through 5th Grade. From 6th Grade, we had the choice of taking French or Arabic so all the cool kids switched to French.

The teachers your kids have will be top notch but more importantly, the way I describe the overall community is like this.
Imagine growing up in a community where:
  • Everybody's dad has a job (otherwise they don't live there)
  • Nobody (with rare exceptions) has any extended family living in the same town (no grandparents, aunts/uncles/cousins)
  • Everybody has at least one College Educated parent (some of the mom's are trophy wives, some of the dad's married up)
  • There is essentially no crime
  • World Travel is mandatory
To be fair - Even though it's really happening, it is an artificial existence. Which makes the next part difficult.

I left Saudi when I was 15 because my mom wouldn't let me go to Boarding School. Nowadays, the schools go up through 12th Grade so that wouldn't be a problem.

The adjustment back to the USA was difficult and many of my friends did not handle it well. The ones who managed that transition have done well. The ones who fell through the cracks have struggled. These days with Facebook, Twitter, etc., it's much easier to keep in touch with your old friends.

As a kid though, trying to explain where you're from, what you know, etc. is virtually impossible. Kids are more interested in whether you've been to Disney World than if you've been to The Louvre. Adults are more interested in whether you've been to Paris or Luxor in Las Vegas than if you've been to the real Eiffel Tower in France, or the Valley of the Kings in Egypt.

It's not an impossible adjustment back to the USA but, let's just say that if you stay too long, your sons will have to decide whether they're going to crawl back into themselves and try to fit in, or, if they're going to embrace that lonely existence of knowing more about the world than their peers, their teachers and most of their friends parents.

It's tough and there are risks but, I believe it's worth doing. I think it's a great experience for kids.

EDIT: I just reminded myself of when I was working "On the Lot" at Disney. One of my colleagues went over to Orlando for work and was able to go on the Disney Safari thing they have. He was describing how neat it was to see all the animals from Africa. I asked him - honestly - if he saw any Cheetah kills or anything exciting like that (because that was one of the neatest things I got to see in Kenya). He told me that no, the animals are all contained in cleverly enclosed habitats so that they don't actually interact with each other. I just didn't see the appeal. Conversely, he didn't understand why I thought seeing a Cheetah kill was so awesome.



This summarizes what my wife has told me for years. Going overseas is easier than coming home. Going overseas is exciting, fun, and new. Coming home is much more difficult as their world isn't the same as when they left which can be hard for kids to process.
aggie_wes
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Really depends on how long you go. I was 8 when we moved to Mexico City and 10 when we moved back. I would say it was a great experience for sure. It really opens your eyes to the fact that there is so much more out in the world than what you've seen growing up in your little bubble and that there are many different ways people live and grow up.

In that time, I did not have a difficult transition back, though a lot of that is because we returned to the same area, so I ended up back in the same schools with people I already knew from before I left.

I would say do it, with a set idea of how long you'll be gone and a rough idea of a plan to return when that time is uo. We have toyed around with the idea, but my company does not have nearly the international footprint to make it viable right now.
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HollywoodBQ
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I agree with you about 2 years being just long enough to get some exposure but not so long away that you're un-relatable. After I typed that up, I thought about a couple more situations that I've come across.

The friends your kids make will be from all over the world. This means that when they go home, they'll be scattered all over the world. Hopefully they will wind up in a situation like what I found.

The kids from my school were typically there for 2-3 years during their dad's work assignment. Now the folks who worked for Saudi Aramco had a different situation because they all lived in a massive compound and their dads were all on five year long contracts.

The blessing that the internet has brought us is the ability to reunite in person. Obviously much older but it is nice to see that small group of childhood friends who went to the same school, swam on the same swim team, etc. All of us from this artificial existence that almost nobody else can relate to.

We first did a reunion in Houston in 2007, then Vegas in 2008, Vegas again in 2010 I think. We've had reunions in NOLA, the Bay Area, at the Saudi Embassy in D.C. and later this month in Ireland. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to make any of the recent ones but I have setup individual meet ups with some of my childhood friends.

What people can't understand is that when we meet up, even though we haven't seen each other in decades, we are able to immediately re-connect because of that shared artificial existence in KSA as kids.

Now, the downside is that living overseas for an extended period of time, your kids will miss out on American trends. They'll get caught up a little bit during annual visits and shopping for clothes, etc. But flash in the pan trends, they'll miss out on. Really this is no big deal except that at some point in the future, they'll probably want to be more relatable to other American kids who have never been overseas.

So, your kids will be knowledgeable about which terminal at Singapore Changi Airport has the Koi Pond and the Butterfly exhibit that you can walk through, they won't know the latest catch phrase.

Current example - I've got FB friends in Texas talking all about some deal with people licking Blue Bell ice cream. I have no idea what they're talking about. Posting memes constantly but it doesn't mean anything to me. On the other side of the coin, they've probably never had a laugh at any of Chris Lilley's characters or have any idea about Rebel Wilson in Fat Pizza before she became Fat Amy.

Older example but more significant to me, I lived in Saudi Arabia during the time when the Wendy's "Where's the Beef?" commercials were running in the US. From what I've gathered, they were everywhere in the 1980s and everybody knows the catch phrase "Where's the Beef?".

As an Armor Officer in the 1990s, my soldiers started clowning around letting off some steam and started making "Where's the Beef?" jokes. I had no idea what they were talking about. I had literally never seen a Wendy's "Where's the Beef?" commercial.

More recent example was the Bud Light "Dilly Dilly" campaign. Since I live overseas in a country that doesn't have Bud Light, I would go to corporate meetings in California and my peers and management would be having a grand time cracking "Dilly Dilly" jokes. Since I'd never seen a Bud Light "Dilly Dilly" commercial, I had no idea what they're talking about. Does it really matter? No, not really. But, the thing is, I'm an American so I'm expected to know all the American stuff. If I was German or Japanese or something nobody would care and they'd give me a pass.

So, what I'm getting at is, there will be subtle social things that they miss out on.

In my case, my kids wound up going to High School in Australia and going back to the USA for college. This has been very difficult because they don't have any of their HS friends also attending their college. Everybody is new to them. In the case of my kid who went to A&M, it was nice having a lot of family support nearby who could visit on game weekends, etc. My other kid goes to VMI and we don't have any family in Virginia so it's a very tough transition going from a foreign HS to an American college. Again, if they were from Singapore or India, or something, they would be treated as foreigners. But, since they're Americans, they're held to the same social standards of pop culture as their peers. Fashion, music, memes, etc. I have no idea what "Red Dirt" country music is but I gather it's popular.

Anyway, it's not all doom and gloom, it's just that the kids will wind up in a situation where they can fall into this category of isolation because people that can relate to going to the Deer Lease in South Texas for opening day can't usually relate to going to Taipei 101 on vacation.

If Singapore is one of the places you're seriously considering, I highly recommend watching Crazy Rich Asians. I've been to many of the locations depicted in that movie. And it will give you some glimpse into what the culture is like. By this, I mean a totally foreign way of doing things that might take some time to understand.

SwissAgg
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HollywoodBQ said:

SwissAgg said:

Dubai is not bad for a couple of years. I was in Saudi Arabia for a year and spent a lot if time in Dubai.
Where were you in KSA?
I was working in Riyadh for SABIC Chemicals doing an SAP project. Experiencing

Ramadan was a real challenge. We couldn't eat or drink in public during sun up.

We had to go to our hotel rooms and eat snacks. I was so hungry and thirsty.

In Dubai, they have understanding for non-Muslims.
HollywoodBQ
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Now, that's my input as an expat kid and as a parent.
Here's my input as an American working overseas.

Just like in many organisations, when you cut a deal for a job that should lead to a promotion down the line, things can change and that future position might never materialise.

I've found that people will help you get overseas but nobody will help you get back to the USA.

I left Los Angeles for Sydney in 2007 on what I had envisioned would be a 2 year gig. I had some management commitment to that effect also. The kids were 9 and 12 when we moved to Australia. I wanted to have them back in the States before High School and ideally back to Texas before College.

Organisations changed, mergers and acquisitions happened. Something called the GFC happened and when the end of 2009 rolled around, I was hopelessly mired in working in Australia.

In 2010, I started making plans to leave on my own - even without a job to go to. This info worked its way up to the right management levels and they gave me an offer I couldn't refuse. So, I made the decision to stay for a couple more years and let the oldest finish HS and consider another break point when the youngest was going into HS. Again, org changes, management changes and that promise of "letting me" move back to the USA never happened.

So here I am 12 years on and with the youngest 1 year away from college graduation, I can say without a doubt, I'm coming back to the USA in 2021 with or without a job.

My point here is that once you get overseas and prove yourself, smart managers will want to keep you working for them.

The same thing happened to a friend of mine who is a hard pipe hitter for a big bank. She took a 3 year assignment to India and after 2+ years, she was ready to go home. Luckily she was able to work it out. But, her husband had enough and bailed early. Imagine not being an expat wife but rather an expat husband. There's not really an expat husbands group to join. In her particular situation, she said the expat groups in India were all about younger kids in their 20s hooking up with each other so not much interest for a married person with kids in college.

One other thing I'll say is that the "hardships" of living overseas are pretty mild compared to what they once were. Especially if you go someplace like Saudi, or The Emirates, or Singapore, or even KL. Nothing like shopping in the fly infested souks I frequented as a kid. You go to a Carrefour in Singapore and you can buy everything you can get back in the USA. And don't get me started on the western restaurants they have available now. Nothing like having to settle for shwarma on the street or hiding out during Ramadan to sneak a drink of water while on a shopping excursion.

More recently, I've become acquainted with a recent A&M PETE grad who works offshore in Africa. He was initially told that he would have a 3 year gig and he could go back to Texas after that. It's almost been 3 years and there is no end in sight. In fact, they're promoting him in Africa so, he love the USA but, he has no idea how he's going to get back there - permanently versus the routine flights home.

But, while you're overseas, you can take great advantage of the travel opportunities. I'd been to about 25 countries by the time I was 15 years old. Since I've moved to Australia twelve years ago, I've added another 15 countries to that list including some that I had no interest in going to but am glad that I did (India tops that list).

Lastly, I'll leave you with this, when you go, commit to not coming home for at least 12 months. I've seen a few Americans flame out early. One guy I worked with in Sydney, just couldn't deal with how backwards the Australians are and he was wheels up headed home with his family inside of 10 months. In my case, it was 2 1/2 years before I was able to bring my family back to the USA for a visit. That was originally my timeline for the whole overseas experience.

Again, I say - do it. But, understand that there will be fallout. Not the least of which will be the fact that none of your friends or family will ever come to visit you and all you will hear from them is that you don't come to visit them enough and the big one "When are y'all moving back to Texas?".

Oh, and if you do wind up living in an Islamic country, be prepared for the arguments that you will have to make a decision about setting people straight about what is and is not true, or just ignoring the conversation entirely. One choice is more peaceful, the other choice leads to blowing people's minds and making yourself an outcast.

Or, even if you wind up in Southeast Asia, be prepared to be frustrated by differences and the games of particular countries. And know that most Americans will have no idea what you're talking about and will care even less. I'll leave you with this, I was doing some work with our employees in China and I kept referring to them as our Chinese Engineers. My American manager based in California let me know that referring to them as Chinese was culturally insensitive and that I should refer to them as Asian. I asked him if it was OK if, when I was physically present in China and working with them in China, if I could refer to them as Chinese? And if I could refer to the Korean guys as our Korean Team. And of course in Japan, if I could refer to the guys locally as Japanese. He finally started to understand my point.
HollywoodBQ
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SwissAgg said:

HollywoodBQ said:

SwissAgg said:

Dubai is not bad for a couple of years. I was in Saudi Arabia for a year and spent a lot if time in Dubai.
Where were you in KSA?
I was working in Riyadh for SABIC Chemicals doing an SAP project. Experiencing

Ramadan was a real challenge. We couldn't eat or drink in public during sun up.

We had to go to our hotel rooms and eat snacks. I was so hungry and thirsty.

In Dubai, they have understanding for non-Muslims.
Yeah, I hadn't been to the Middle East during Ramadan since I was a kid so I remember hiding out, ducking down in the floorboard of the bus to drink water so that we couldn't be seen doing it when we were on shopping trips with our moms.

But, I flew through Dubai in May and was pleasantly surprised that I could have a beer during daylight hours, no problem.
HollywoodBQ
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Just coming back to this thread because I was watching Narcos Mexico last night and there's a scene where Kiki Camarena gets transferred from Fresno to Guadalajara. When he arrives in Mexico, he's gung ho and is clearly trying to make a name for himself.

That is a very common thing for Americans who go overseas to do. Try to force their timeline onto the local environment. I'm guilty as well.

I beat my head against the wall in Australia for about 18 months before I had what I refer to as "My Epiphany" about Australia and Australian workers. Ever since then, it's been pretty smooth sailing.

As it relates to the OP, working overseas isn't all fun and games. It might take a while to figure out how to operate effectively in the local culture.
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HollywoodBQ
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third coast.. said:

Australians have NOTHING on the laziness of middle easterners. Spent enough time in Dubai/bahrain/Oman to figure that one out.
Australians aren't lazy. They just don't care. Big difference.

One of my favorite lines out of the Jamie Foxx / Jennifer Garner movie "The Kingdom" was when the old lady they're interviewing explains how she knew there was something fishy about the Saudi gardener before the explosion. She said (quite correctly) - "Saudis don't do manual labor".
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