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So your spouse wants to get a PhD...

6,859 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Madagascar
Carlo4
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AG
Also posted on academic board but wanted to try here.

Anyone else currently going through, or been through, a situation where the spouse is getting a PhD? How was it?

Our current situation:
-Received a $100,000 grant at OU plus stipend for full time
-3 year timeline. Goal to be a college professor.
-no kids, but our timeline would be having 1st during program (early 30s for her)

I'm incredibly excited for her and proud of her. However, I fear for the long nights, strain on a relationship, and being away from all our family/support (everyone is in DFW area).

Thanks for any feedback... I'm a worrier by trade. I found out about this tonight so my head is spinning! Unfortunately, she has about a week or two to answer in the affirmative!
Buck Compton
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AG
What's your employment situation and what is the PhD in? Not all PhDs are created equal from a workload perspective.

While not this exact situation you can make anything work. I completed my MBA while dating my now wife (as she finished vet school) and travel 4-5 days a week for my job for over 3 years now.
Carlo4
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AG
Good questions and thanks for responding.

I'm an engineer making $130k a year in salary and bonuses working 40 hours a week. It's a fantastic job and low stress. She's a BCBA working with kids with autism at 60 hours a week making about $80k. Terrible job with high stress, but she loves the field. Unfortunately her industry has similar hours across all jobs unless part time or non profit.

She's been told her time will be research/publishing papers, teaching classes, taking classes, and supervising BCBAs. To me that's a 80 hour week schedule knowing her work ethic/style and my past experience doing a full time Masters degree before we met.

I'd have to quit (local company) and take a 20-25% pay reduction in OK for my line of work based on little research I've seen. She's suggesting staying during week in Norman and coming home on weekends. I can't see that as an option trying to start a family as well as her hours.. once we have a child commuting can't work, for example. So we would move there.

Another option we are considering is part time BCBA work, starting the family now, and go after the PhD once kids are a little older, so 7-10 years from now. Money isn't a concern thankfully, so we are discussing what makes the most sense for her regarding her passions in her job, work life balance, starting a family, and quality time for us.

TXTransplant
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As a PhD and a former tenure-track prof, my concern/advice isn't so much related to getting the PhD (while no walk in the park, my experience wasn't awful) but what happens after, as you say in your post that her goal is academia.

If she also wants to go the tenure-track professor route, you need to think long and hard about what life will look like at that point. In any given year, there just aren't that many tenure-track positions available, and competition is so tough, you can be competing against hundreds of other applicants (even in fields like engineering where, relatively speaking, not that many people even get PhDs).

The application/search process usually takes a full academic year, you have no control over what positions might open up or where they might be located, and you may end up having to move to some BFE college town (think Starkville, MS) just so she can get her foot in the door. That could have a huge affect on your career.

She may also have to take a position at a lower tier school, just to get her foot in the door - and once you're at a lower-tier school, it can be very hard to move up the academic food chain.

There is also the issue that she may search for 2-3 years and never get an offer (I've seen this happen to several people), or she gets a position, but after 7 years on the tenure-track is denied tenure (or hates the school/department/colleagues and wants to leave).

None of these are career-ending situations (I say that from personal experience), but they are emotionally challenging, and anyone who thinks they want a career as a tenure track prof has to be fully prepared to move on in the case it just doesn't work out.
Aggie1205
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AG
PDEMDHC said:



She's been told her time will be research/publishing papers, teaching classes, taking classes, and supervising BCBAs. To me that's a 80 hour week schedule knowing her work ethic/style and my past experience doing a full time Masters degree before we




I'm a spouse of someone in a similar situation in program and age. Also going for a PHD. One thing that is critical is who their advisor is and the stipulations of their grant. A bad advisor/professor will use the PHD students to handle all of their own research and not support any efforts to have their own papers/work. We have seen some that will rarely even meet with their students, or often cancel at the last minute. It's very competitive in terms of the order of names on papers. If you have a great idea then existing professors will want to jump in and "help" so they can take credit for first or second authorship, even though they barely touch the project. It can break down the students willingness to even discuss ideas for fear of them being stolen.

As someone looking from the outside(and private sector) the academia world is very heavy in red tape and politics. More so than I see in my field.
Carlo4
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AG
Thanks for the feedback on post PhD teaching. The little we spoke on this part, she thinks we can move back to the area and find a job instantly. Certainly not that easy. I'll make sure we set up an appointment talking to professors so she can see the reality of it.
Esteban du Plantier
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AG
Being a successful college professor is no easy task.

If she's making $80K now, you're not going to make much more while working much less. Everyone I know in academia (mainly hard sciences) treats their career as their life. They have no hobbies or off time, they're always thinking about the science.

So, unless a PhD or being an academic is just particularly appealing, it's tough.

My wife completed her PhD after we were married. She was full time in her PhD program until ABD, then got a full time job in industry and completed her PhD over the next couple years. Finishing the PhD while working full time took every second of her time. I could not imagine her doing that after we had kids.

TXTransplant
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PDEMDHC said:

Thanks for the feedback on post PhD teaching. The little we spoke on this part, she thinks we can move back to the area and find a job instantly. Certainly not that easy. I'll make sure we set up an appointment talking to professors so she can see the reality of it.


Honestly, professors who have a job and successfully navigated the texture-track path are the worst to talk to. They are going to be inclined tell her how great it is and leave out all the gory details. She definitely needs to get their perspective, but she also needs to talk to some recent PhD grads (5 years and less) from the program she wants to enroll in and ask them what their job search looked like, what their oppprtunites were, and where they are now.

She also needs a solid back up plan on what she will do if the tenure-track prof path doesn't work out.
Aggie1205
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AG
TXTransplant said:

PDEMDHC said:

Thanks for the feedback on post PhD teaching. The little we spoke on this part, she thinks we can move back to the area and find a job instantly. Certainly not that easy. I'll make sure we set up an appointment talking to professors so she can see the reality of it.


Honestly, professors who have a job and successfully navigated the texture-track path are the worst to talk to. They are going to be inclined tell her how great it is and leave out all the gory details. She definitely needs to get their perspective, but she also needs to talk to some recent PhD grads (5 years and less) from the program she wants to enroll in and ask them what their job search looked like, what their oppprtunites were, and where they are now.

She also needs a solid back up plan on what she will do if the tenure-track prof path doesn't work out.


Agree with this. Professors are similar to any company that recruits. They give examples of the best case scenario and not the average. Find someone who has recently gone through who can give honest feedback. More than one if possible.
Carlo4
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AG
Appreciate the advice I think what we need to do now is get her to a place where she has time to think and process her options. That would mean getting out of the high stress job and long hours.

TXTransplant
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I would also encourage a discussion about ~why~ she wants to get her PhD. If she really wants to challenge herself and expand her depth of knowledge in the field, and is open minded about where the PhD might take her career then that's a good thing.

If she's only interested because she thinks she wants a career in academics and a PhD is necessary for that, then she might be setting herself up for disappointment. Especially if she thinks the academic job will give her more freedom and flexibility and be less stressful than her current position.
Madagascar
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AG
Getting the PhD will be tough but it's really not the issue. Her post doc goals will be most important to you. Academia is ridiculously hard to get a job in. And many PhD programs don't train you for jobs other than academia jobs so many spend years applying and not realizing what they need to do to breakthrough the job market. I would advise her to learn how to market her skills to an industry job while she's in her program. That way if the academic career doesn't work out, she can try marketing herself for industry jobs-which, depending on her field, can often be more lucrative, more plentiful, and less stressful than non tenure academic jobs.
Aggiemike96
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AG
Some good advice in this thread. I did this EXACT thing. I commuted three hours each way for 4 years while pursuing my PhD. I now fly 2 hours each way to my tenure track position in another state. This scenario is pretty common in academia. And, yes, I would absolutely do it all over again knowing what I know now.

I'm happy to answer any questions.
cisgenderedAggie
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Wife and I are both recovering academics, both in hard sciences at a major research university. I finished about 5 years ago and ran from further involvement with universities. Wife finished 8 years ago and did 2 short post-docs before following suit. Would agree with all advice in this thread except Aggiemike's. Not saying he's wrong, just sounds like he's one of the few it's worked out well for.

Don't trust a word from tenured professors. I only ever met one that would give advice to students that was framed on their best interests. It was never what you wanted to hear but was usually right, and she was a bit of a pariah in her department. Half of them will even acknowledge that their advice on career and future outlook is garbage when pushed hard on the realities of the situation. As mentioned, they have heavy interest to recruit you and keep you excited. If you know anything about their day-to-day, it's not hard to see why the snake oil is so important.

Other things to consider when listening to these people...

Many of them got made when the climate was a lot easier. You need to try and research what the grant cycles and demographics (not race) of the field were like 20..30..40, maybe even 50 years ago in some cases. 20 years ago, Fed was raining money on NIH. If you were wrapping up PhD or getting into post doc In the mid-90s, the world was your oyster for the next 5-10 years. Not so much 5-10 years later. 30-40 years ago, the number of students and availability of departments weren't as out of proportion as they are now, and your advisor might actually be willing and/or able to help you get a job somewhere.

Also, the expectations for publishable results were way lower than today. Nobody likes to admit that the bar was lower when they had to do it, but unless we're takin about some Lasker/Nobel award type of work, it almost always was (and will continue to be in the future). Consider if these are the backdrop of the professor's formative experiences. They will likely advise you through this lens, and say things like "it's cyclical". It isn't, and this is not the environment you will grow in today. I've not had much experience with these kinds of people in which they are willing to put themselves in your shoes and see how damaging the realities of today's academia can be on the long term career of a young person.

Don't be fooled by the insistence that there are jobs waiting outside of academia if you don't want to be a professor, because there aren't. I don't know her field, but I can tell you that this kind of nonsense was always fostered as a fair assumption with regards to biopharma and "alternative careers". There are jobs in that sector, but the vast majority aren't for you. It's almost as bad breaking in as it is to seek professsorships, and most people either have complete caeer changes or take jobs that never required and usually don't want a PhD. You should research whether this is the same for her field. If there are private sector jobs, where are they, how common, what do they pay, does she really need a PhD or will it actually hurt her? She'll probably be overqualified to go back to what she's doing now. Don't assume that a PhD means she'll earn more. Assume it means she'll earn less, because she'll be desperate and have no negotiatiable position. Probably won't sniff $80k again for 10 years or more.

If your looking for advice about becoming a professor, avoid tenured advisors. Find the young people that are 3 years in to their first professorships and try to get them to paint an accurate picture about the day-to-day. They probably love what they do (or the idea of what they do) but that's the only thing keeping them from cracking under the stress and regret. 3 years in, they probably are drying up on startup money and running into snags on how they'll keep the ship together. Competition for grants is fierce, departments only care about the overhead they can take, grad students suck and professional researchers/technicians cost too much, equipment and supplies costs are a problem, and your gateway to publication lies in the hands of reviewers that are actually your competitors. It's all the stress and frustration of running you're own small business, with none of the upside if you happen to be successful. Hell, you aren't even creating real jobs for people, so the altruistic benefits of building a business are missing too. This is the job your wife has to look forward to. Not the rosy picture painted by tenured professors (who probably won't tell you about their own frustrations with having to be 60-80% administrators).

Regarding your career, how flexible is location? Are there areas you need to be in or can you find work anywhere? As pointed out above, hers won't be flexible at all. Chances are high that the forward progress requires working at some podunk regional college, likely not located in an area with a diverse and robust economy. No way to know how long you'll be there either, so laying down roots for small town living is a risk.

I'd evaluate the whole thing the same way as a major investment, asking what the return expected is and the time frame. Even if your out of pocket costs are zero, you need to assume a hard value on the opportunity cost. If your wife is making $80k now, assume 10 years before that happens again, or have realistic conservative estimations on the timeframe to get there again. Cap out at mid-career projections for her field and adjust for inflation. How long until you recoup the cost of lost income during that window, and does she really love it that much? Don't forget to model impact to your own career. And remember, children change all parameters of the equation. If the impact is great enough, trust and believe that you will regret not having the best stable financial footing and flexibility in careers that you could have had if/when they arrive. That multiplies if the academic route isn't every bit as personally fulfilling as she hopes.

Sorry for my negative outlook on this and long post. It's fair to say that I'm pretty bitter about my academic experiences. I've always felt that I have to make up for lost time that could have been avoided with the right advice or less naive perspective. Wife isn't as bad, but I've slowly watch her opinion get closer over the years as well. It's also echoed by a lot of my classmates and peers, so I don't think I'm an anomaly.
What is different about my opinion, however, is that I foster a lot of hostility around the idea that the academiic/university system lures some very bright and hardworking young people away from the private sector and frequently returns them busted down and used up with little to show for it. Grad school can mess with your mind. Most of my peers would be doing wonderful today and probably would have made loads of value addition to private R&D if they'd not got caught up in academia and just started out in biopharma after undergrad. Instead, they are either approaching 2nd postdocs or still desparately trying to convince employers, who claim they can't find good and qualified candidates, to even look their way. There were times that I started to seriously question whether I was even cut out to manage a convenience store, much less a research program. It's taken years to restore confidence and gain recognition from colleagues that I can, in fact, run a research program.

A lot of people enjoy academia, or claim to at least, but I think they are the minority. You shouldn't **** on her dreams, but do what you can to make sure that the two of you walked into this with clear eyes and realistic expectations. The outcome may be good or bad, but know that pursuing a PhD will permanently alter your careers and once it's done there's no going back.
Madagascar
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AG
Excellent post Cis. That is nearly all accurate in respect to my experience with the exception of the availability of Biopharma jobs. They do indeed exist but acadmeic PhDs aren't trained to hone their skills as much as they are trained to try and publish and sit atop a white tower. The private sector has more skill based positions that require alot of experience. If you have only worked on your dissertation study the last 3 years, that's not going to look as good to Biopharma unless they need you for a project on that exact topic. This all leaves many square pegs and round holes.

And you are right referencing the struggles of grad school. There was recently a study that showed a very high percentage of grad students develop serious mental health issues. I got my Masters and then went through 3 rounds of Clinical psyc PhD applications before I realized I was just giving away 1000s of dollars to make some professors feel special. My work wasn't appreciated and the difference I was making was minor. And if I had been accepted, I would have essentially been an indentured servant. Many of my peers did go on to get PhDs and while a few had success, many have shared stories similar to yours. I have become convinced I was a lucky one to not have been accepted otherwise I would have been on the same path as you and my peers. I now work as a statistician in Pharma and my life is way better.

I also share your cynicism regarding academia. I agree that it's ashame so many young, bright college students are getting sucked down the academic PhD path when the probability is high that it won't do them much good in the long run. Not to mention, I am quite suspect about the quality of research coming from academia these days. There is a serious replicability crisis in psychology and I wonder if the publish or perish model, and the lack of investment in quality researchers has anything to do with it. Thankfully I don't have to worry about that anymore.
cisgenderedAggie
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I wish I'd had your experience with the jobs. I've been working for a consulting firm in drug development from r almost 5 years. Touched ClinPharm programs in dozens of therapeutic areas, done a little bit of modeling/simulation, and worked on about 3INDs, 2 NDAs, and 1 BLA. Even have led early phase program for a small company. Took 3 years to finally crack $100k/year and even then only because a high dollar client told my CEO they wouldn't work with anyone else for an upcoming project. Been looking for a year for sponsor-side work and still can't land anything. Maybe it would be different if I was willing to suffer COL in Boston or the Bay Area, but I'm not ready to go back to subsistence living. Had no luck anywhere else. Maybe one day...


And you're right to question quality of academic research. I typically hate follow the money arguments, but the incentives in academia are so perverse that I believe it facilitates trying to publish things that are no bueno por caca. Impact factor is a crap metric, so quantity can beat quality all day. I have a lot of contempt for publishers too and thats a big part of the problem in my opinion, but that's a whole other discussion.
TXTransplant
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This thread has become a support group for reformed academics! I don't disagree with anything cisgenderedAggie said in his post. The research funding climate was bad when I was tenure-track (2004-2010), and some pretty significant changes happened just as I was leaving that made it even worse (namely NSF went from a twice-per-year to a once-per-year grant submission window).

I was trying not to be overly negative because the OP's wife is not in remotely the same field as I am (I have a PhD in engineering), but tenure-track is brutal. I was in a VERY small department with a PhD program that was on life support, and having highly competitive, peer-reviewed grants from the USDA and NSF (while funding rate was less than 10% at the time) still weren't enough. It really was publish or perish, and I HATE publishing (mainly because reviewers take 10 months to a year to reject your papers without even reading them).

My PhD is in a field that is very narrow when it comes to job opportunities for those of us who have PhDs. Most companies that hire people in my field simply don't know what to do with those of us with advanced degrees.

I'm fortunate in that I landed on a new career path that I love, that uses a lot of my previous writing and research skills, and actually pays a lot better than the tenure track. But it was not an easy path to get here, and I often feel regret about the years that I "wasted" in academics - particularly when I think about my retirement accounts (although, I console myself that the NSF funding/research project that I left behind in 2010 was renewed and has received renewal funding to the tune of over $750k).
Madagascar
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AG
It's not that the job market was easy for me. It's just that when I work hard in pharma, I get rewarded. I worked easily twice or three times as hard in academia and didn't get much in return. I was only really eligible for research assistant jobs with a master's and they hardly paid anything and usually only existed for months at a time in less than pleasant work environments. Now I get paid more and can be more picky in my jobs. It sounds like you have great PI experience so if you target your search appropriately and network well, you should be able to get something that works for you. The area of the country you work in might be playing a role. I work in greater Philadelphia which has a large pharma presence. The COL isn't bad if you budget well, but I understand if you don't want to leave TX. A potential path I'm looking at is getting settled in a good WFH position that way I can move back to TX without worrying about the job market.

I also spent years trying to figure all this out and went back to school for applied stats so I still have debt to pay off and my life isn't perfect. But in terms of job quality, I feel pretty positive and confident about the future and can get paid 100k when I get to the senior statistician level without a doctorate. I only wish I had realized sooner that the academic system was not a sustainable market for those of us who are not the Michael Jordan of research (and who is right out of school?) In terms of making a good life while doing the research you enjoy. It would have saved me some debt to pay off.
Madagascar
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AG
TXTransplant said:

This thread has become a support group for reformed academics!


Hah, true! You can also tell we've been in academia by the length of the posts.

Sorry OP didnt mean to detail. I really think if I had understood the market in academia better earlier, I would be better off now. You guys do what's best for you, just make sure you inform yourselves.
cisgenderedAggie
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Yeah these last few posts have gone south. Sorry if I helped. Also, I'm in RTP, not Texas. Id love to move back to Texas, but I'm never working for a University again.
fightingfarmer09
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I have a PhD in an Agricultural science field.

Interviewed for a few academic roles and found the whole process off putting. Work in private industry and love it. I have several friends that were denied tenure and the position was opened up to cheaper hires.

A PhD is a way of life, not a certificate. Every job I take, or task I'm assigned is someway tied to my PhD and those skills.

I wanted a PhD and to do hardcore science research all my life so it was a natural path for me, and my wife willingly sacrificed for me to get where I am. But I don't make much more money than I would have with a BS or MS. Luckily it was all paid for by research grants and industry funding.

Also factor in that it might be "three year track", but if your dissertation is challenging, or writing is difficult it could be 12+ months longer. If you take longer to write you often receive no funding, but still must pay tuition to remain in active status until you finish. And there is always the off chance your work is not up to par, or you burn out and you leave the program with nothing.
Al Bula
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AG
In the nicest way possible, having a kid midway through a doctorate is terrible idea. Either do grad school or do the mom thing. It is not fair to her, the husband or the potential kid. Rearing even the easiest child in the world is tough work for both mom and dad. Health problems or special needs are a real possibility.

Women are difficult to deal without all the extra hormones brought on by childbirth already. If you want kids knock her up before the grad school nonsense is irreversible.
O'Doyle Rules
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Id heavily discourage her from this idea. Especially since the current model of college life is 1000% unsustainable and the bubble will pop . What professor / student life looks like after that ...well who knows.
AggieBarstool
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My wife is in year 8 of a 3/4 year program.
We married partway through.
It's been tough.
She quit her job 15 months ago to finish. She was in her last 3-4 months of writing. That was a year ago.
It's a huge strain and will be tough on your marriage.
Ark03
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AG
PDEMDHC said:

Good questions and thanks for responding.

I'm an engineer making $130k a year in salary and bonuses working 40 hours a week. It's a fantastic job and low stress. She's a BCBA working with kids with autism at 60 hours a week making about $80k. Terrible job with high stress, but she loves the field. Unfortunately her industry has similar hours across all jobs unless part time or non profit.

She's been told her time will be research/publishing papers, teaching classes, taking classes, and supervising BCBAs. To me that's a 80 hour week schedule knowing her work ethic/style and my past experience doing a full time Masters degree before we met.

I'd have to quit (local company) and take a 20-25% pay reduction in OK for my line of work based on little research I've seen. She's suggesting staying during week in Norman and coming home on weekends. I can't see that as an option trying to start a family as well as her hours.. once we have a child commuting can't work, for example. So we would move there.

Another option we are considering is part time BCBA work, starting the family now, and go after the PhD once kids are a little older, so 7-10 years from now. Money isn't a concern thankfully, so we are discussing what makes the most sense for her regarding her passions in her job, work life balance, starting a family, and quality time for us.


My sister is a BCBA-D in another state, who now teaches courses for the BCBA certification, does a fair bit of research and seminars about her research, and takes minimal clients privately. Her work/life balance is MUCH better than it was during her days doing therapy. Working for nonprofits doing therapy is a quick way to burn out. Now, she has a baby under 1 year old, and was able to scale back, and the little work she does now is from home.

That said, it may get worse before it gets better. A lot of it will depend on her PhD program (my sister's was in Behavioral Neuroscience), and what she chooses to do after finishing up.
Synopsis
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cisgenderedAggie said:

Wife and I are both recovering academics, both in hard sciences at a major research university. I finished about 5 years ago and ran from further involvement with universities. Wife finished 8 years ago and did 2 short post-docs before following suit. Would agree with all advice in this thread except Aggiemike's. Not saying he's wrong, just sounds like he's one of the few it's worked out well for.

Don't trust a word from tenured professors. I only ever met one that would give advice to students that was framed on their best interests. It was never what you wanted to hear but was usually right, and she was a bit of a pariah in her department. Half of them will even acknowledge that their advice on career and future outlook is garbage when pushed hard on the realities of the situation. As mentioned, they have heavy interest to recruit you and keep you excited. If you know anything about their day-to-day, it's not hard to see why the snake oil is so important.

Other things to consider when listening to these people...

Many of them got made when the climate was a lot easier. You need to try and research what the grant cycles and demographics (not race) of the field were like 20..30..40, maybe even 50 years ago in some cases. 20 years ago, Fed was raining money on NIH. If you were wrapping up PhD or getting into post doc In the mid-90s, the world was your oyster for the next 5-10 years. Not so much 5-10 years later. 30-40 years ago, the number of students and availability of departments weren't as out of proportion as they are now, and your advisor might actually be willing and/or able to help you get a job somewhere.

Also, the expectations for publishable results were way lower than today. Nobody likes to admit that the bar was lower when they had to do it, but unless we're takin about some Lasker/Nobel award type of work, it almost always was (and will continue to be in the future). Consider if these are the backdrop of the professor's formative experiences. They will likely advise you through this lens, and say things like "it's cyclical". It isn't, and this is not the environment you will grow in today. I've not had much experience with these kinds of people in which they are willing to put themselves in your shoes and see how damaging the realities of today's academia can be on the long term career of a young person.

Don't be fooled by the insistence that there are jobs waiting outside of academia if you don't want to be a professor, because there aren't. I don't know her field, but I can tell you that this kind of nonsense was always fostered as a fair assumption with regards to biopharma and "alternative careers". There are jobs in that sector, but the vast majority aren't for you. It's almost as bad breaking in as it is to seek professsorships, and most people either have complete caeer changes or take jobs that never required and usually don't want a PhD. You should research whether this is the same for her field. If there are private sector jobs, where are they, how common, what do they pay, does she really need a PhD or will it actually hurt her? She'll probably be overqualified to go back to what she's doing now. Don't assume that a PhD means she'll earn more. Assume it means she'll earn less, because she'll be desperate and have no negotiatiable position. Probably won't sniff $80k again for 10 years or more.

If your looking for advice about becoming a professor, avoid tenured advisors. Find the young people that are 3 years in to their first professorships and try to get them to paint an accurate picture about the day-to-day. They probably love what they do (or the idea of what they do) but that's the only thing keeping them from cracking under the stress and regret. 3 years in, they probably are drying up on startup money and running into snags on how they'll keep the ship together. Competition for grants is fierce, departments only care about the overhead they can take, grad students suck and professional researchers/technicians cost too much, equipment and supplies costs are a problem, and your gateway to publication lies in the hands of reviewers that are actually your competitors. It's all the stress and frustration of running you're own small business, with none of the upside if you happen to be successful. Hell, you aren't even creating real jobs for people, so the altruistic benefits of building a business are missing too. This is the job your wife has to look forward to. Not the rosy picture painted by tenured professors (who probably won't tell you about their own frustrations with having to be 60-80% administrators).

Regarding your career, how flexible is location? Are there areas you need to be in or can you find work anywhere? As pointed out above, hers won't be flexible at all. Chances are high that the forward progress requires working at some podunk regional college, likely not located in an area with a diverse and robust economy. No way to know how long you'll be there either, so laying down roots for small town living is a risk.

I'd evaluate the whole thing the same way as a major investment, asking what the return expected is and the time frame. Even if your out of pocket costs are zero, you need to assume a hard value on the opportunity cost. If your wife is making $80k now, assume 10 years before that happens again, or have realistic conservative estimations on the timeframe to get there again. Cap out at mid-career projections for her field and adjust for inflation. How long until you recoup the cost of lost income during that window, and does she really love it that much? Don't forget to model impact to your own career. And remember, children change all parameters of the equation. If the impact is great enough, trust and believe that you will regret not having the best stable financial footing and flexibility in careers that you could have had if/when they arrive. That multiplies if the academic route isn't every bit as personally fulfilling as she hopes.

Sorry for my negative outlook on this and long post. It's fair to say that I'm pretty bitter about my academic experiences. I've always felt that I have to make up for lost time that could have been avoided with the right advice or less naive perspective. Wife isn't as bad, but I've slowly watch her opinion get closer over the years as well. It's also echoed by a lot of my classmates and peers, so I don't think I'm an anomaly.
What is different about my opinion, however, is that I foster a lot of hostility around the idea that the academiic/university system lures some very bright and hardworking young people away from the private sector and frequently returns them busted down and used up with little to show for it. Grad school can mess with your mind. Most of my peers would be doing wonderful today and probably would have made loads of value addition to private R&D if they'd not got caught up in academia and just started out in biopharma after undergrad. Instead, they are either approaching 2nd postdocs or still desparately trying to convince employers, who claim they can't find good and qualified candidates, to even look their way. There were times that I started to seriously question whether I was even cut out to manage a convenience store, much less a research program. It's taken years to restore confidence and gain recognition from colleagues that I can, in fact, run a research program.

A lot of people enjoy academia, or claim to at least, but I think they are the minority. You shouldn't **** on her dreams, but do what you can to make sure that the two of you walked into this with clear eyes and realistic expectations. The outcome may be good or bad, but know that pursuing a PhD will permanently alter your careers and once it's done there's no going back.

Damn. Great post.
mazag08
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AG
PDEMDHC said:

Good questions and thanks for responding.

I'm an engineer making $130k a year in salary and bonuses working 40 hours a week. It's a fantastic job and low stress. She's a BCBA working with kids with autism at 60 hours a week making about $80k. Terrible job with high stress, but she loves the field. Unfortunately her industry has similar hours across all jobs unless part time or non profit.

She's been told her time will be research/publishing papers, teaching classes, taking classes, and supervising BCBAs. To me that's a 80 hour week schedule knowing her work ethic/style and my past experience doing a full time Masters degree before we met.

I'd have to quit (local company) and take a 20-25% pay reduction in OK for my line of work based on little research I've seen. She's suggesting staying during week in Norman and coming home on weekends. I can't see that as an option trying to start a family as well as her hours.. once we have a child commuting can't work, for example. So we would move there.

Another option we are considering is part time BCBA work, starting the family now, and go after the PhD once kids are a little older, so 7-10 years from now. Money isn't a concern thankfully, so we are discussing what makes the most sense for her regarding her passions in her job, work life balance, starting a family, and quality time for us.


Whoa.

Where does she currently work? My wife does the same exact thing.
Carlo4
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AG
Great to see this still going. I want to thank everyone that reached out to me on here and privately. Lots of great advice from all over the spectrum. Reason number 68,413 I love being an Aggie.

We are taking the time Saturday to work out a plan for quite a few personal and work related to do lists for the family. For her work, she's going to request minimum full time hours or go part time. We've had a few personal things occur in the family that has added to stress, like her mom living with us after a recent hospital stay.

This way, she has time to destress, get help from a career counselor on ways to better handle stress at work, talk to people that have reached out to me about a PhD, career pivots, new industry, etc. so we can take the time to decide what's best.

Days of her coming home so exhausted she crashes, as well as spending most of your weekend sleeping to recover, start to wear thin after a while. Life wasn't meant for this.

Feel free to direct message me. If you can't, I can provide a personal email if that's ok with staff/everyone.
Carlo4
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AG
She jumps to a new job every year which seems normal for her coworkers in this industry. Too much stress and too few benefits. The last job she had, the company went under a few months after her leaving.

Feel free to direct message me. If you can't, I'll leave a personal email up until you reasons.

mazag08
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AG
Ya I stopped paying for stars. We are in Houston, and my wife just moved companies in April.

I'm trying to convince her to open her own and pair it with a daycare and a pet hotel.

She doesn't want to do it. She must hate money.
K05
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AG
OP, not sure if you are still seeking advice (I came across this searching for something else) but I'd be happy to share my thoughts/experiences.

I am finishing up my postdoc and just signed a contract for a tenure track assistant professor position.

There is a lot of good advice on this thread, and I am sure it has given you and your wife a lot to think about. One word of caution - be very careful in assuming that what applies to one person's experiences in academia may translate to another's. I would argue that much of the advice and answers to the questions you posed are field specific and even program/mentor specific. Even in my PhD program, there were other students that had wildly different experiences to me because of a situation with their primary mentor.

Nonetheless, I hope that I would be able to provide some insight should you or your wife still be seeking input. My wife has her own career, she had our first child in the 2nd year of my PhD, our second right before I finished in year 4. We have moved 5 times in 4 years (some of those were same city). Let me know if you want to chat and I'll post my person info so we can get in touch. A phone call will likely be easiest.
Carlo4
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AG
Posting an update. First of all, thanks for the advice.

After several discussions, she decided not to pursue at this time. She will meet with the advisor that has been pushing her tomorrow to discuss further. She fears burning bridges but hopefully the meeting clears her thoughts.

Not against a PhD or moving, but the timing and situation of our lives feel like we should wait. We have a disagreement here.

From a financial standpoint, we never had a clear answer from the university even though the program starts in roughly 85 days. How much was the grant? What does it cover? Is there a stipend or pay for the teaching/research being done? Are we paying out of state or in state tuition? Pros and cons of moving. Another side job for both of us? I also wouldn't have duplicated my job in another state in terms of pay.

We were looking at a $150k to $200k bill for school and daily expenses with anywhere between $0 and $100k potentially covered in a grant. It's a huge gamble. This also doesn't discuss the cost of having a child during the program. Throw in money for that plus loss of income of any time off and babysitting, etc.

While all signs seem to point to not doing it, this leaves a massive hole. She's miserable at her particular job but loves her industry. She felt the only out was a PhD. Closing that bridge a short time has devastated her. I will need to do everything I can to ensure we can find something that makes her happy as well as potentially find a better PhD program fit in the future.
K05
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AG
Sounds like you are asking the right questions and are wise to hold off until it is a better fit. I will say, like having children, there never seems to be the perfect time to start a PhD.

In regards to the grant - your original post stating she would have a $100k grant raised some red flags for me. Every field is different, but typically grant funding is provided to a PI who then has $ budgeted to hire doctoral students to work with them on the project for which he/she received funding. The institution usually has caps on the $ provided to the doctoral student. I can tell you where I studied, which is a large public research institution, that was at $40k for 100% time. Meaning, you work 40 hrs/wk for $40k. The PI's project will have budgeted how much % time the doctoral students (research assistants), and that is typically 50% time. This means you are paid $20k per year (in most years) unless you pick up some work as a TA or work on another project at 10-50% time.

My guess is they are being vague because the PI either has not received confirmation of funding of the project (has a fundable score, but nothing is confirmed yet), or there is an existing grant they want to put her on but the grant funding may run out before she is done with her PhD. In which case, there would be no guarantee of funding after that point in time. She would have to hope that the PI gets another grant or that she can jump on to another project or pick up some TA gigs to supplement.

The $100k number they threw out is just weird. Unless your wife received a grant as the PI (which you would know b/c she would have been writing and submitting a grant), or if they have a training grant (T32) that pays $20k per year and they estimate her to take 5 years to finish, then I could see that. But, I have never heard of a program advertising $100k in grant funding to potential students.

In regards to your other questions - I can speculate based on my experiences.

What does it cover? You are paid as any other job/employee so there are not specific funds that cover your books/tuition, etc. You pay your tuition as you would any other student, you are just paid $20k. Where I studied, my $20k per year easily covered tuition and books, but not much for other expenses. Having a significant other that is producing income certainly helps.

Is there a stipend or pay for the teaching/research being done? The grant pays your salary (may or may not be a stipend based on the institutions HR classifications of doctoral students) and your job is a graduate research assistant. Therefore, you will have research duties specific to the project. Any research you conduct independently that needs funding will have to come from your own grants or piggy backing off the PI. Typically, a doctoral student will just work on the PI's project and can satisfy any research being done. Teaching gigs are also paid (TA's or lecturer positions). These are on top of the RA duties. They are paid at the same rate. Most I ever took on was 50% time as RA, and 40% time (2 classes, 20% time each).

Are we paying out of state or in state tuition? No idea why they couldnt answer that.

Pros and cons of moving. Likely they wouldn't give you an answer for that. From a doctoral standpoint, being in the same office as your PI is very helpful. But, I have seen some live remote from the PI and the project they are working on.

Another side job for both of us? Difficult to do. Would recommend your wife focusing on side gigs as a TA or lecturer.




Good luck and again, if you or your wife have any further questions just let me know
Carlo4
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AG
Thanks for the response. She was first told a $100k grant, then backed down to cover tuition. The actual dollar amount of the grant and what it actually covers couldn't seem to be finalized when asked. No mention of any stipend or pay but would be determined later. Even though we live out of state, her advisor thought that after a semester of class she could loophole our way into instate tuition but no guarantees it was possible or if the grant would cover her in the end for the whole time.

Clear as mud in a few spots right?

Very possible she will pursue a PhD in the next few years, and will definitely be open to speaking with you or anyone here to better learn/prepare.
fightingfarmer09
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Also, remember that TA roles can be viewed as department responsibilities and you do not get an additional stipend.

At A&M I had to do a minimum of 2 semesters as a TA without any secondary payment, it was considered part of my "salary". Other students in the same department often did 1 a year without extra pay.
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