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Can someone explain this for me

3,875 Views | 26 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by AFDave13
johnrth
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Short rant but why do big companies, when looking to fill entry level positions, seem to always prefer a college degree over military experience?

I understand there are some positions that a degree is definitely required I.e engineering positions and some others, but other positions any degree will do.
I have a pretty good job that I enjoy, but I'm looking for a change, and without a degree there is absolutely no chance at moving up, my issue is a lack of degree. I went to the military because I know I suck at school. I'm a hands on learner. Ive always done terrible at school and especially on tests. My question is why employers who are looking to fill entry level jobs that have a degree requirement especially ones with a wide array of degree options won't look at people who have military plus experience in that field.

My view is you have some people who partied their asses off during college probably passed with a C average but because they have that degree they will get first chance. Yet on the other hand you have someone with military experience dealing with people from all walks of life, strict discipline, good work ethic etc. plus 5+yrs work experience outside of the military.

I don't mean to discredit anyone with a degree or those who did bust their asses in college but some of the degree plans i've seen half, if not more, of the required classes have nothing to do with the job someone might get. I've tried college many times but the minute tests get dropped infront of me, everything goes out the window.

I apologize for the rant, I'm just trying to,understand why a 22yr old out of college will always have a better chance than someone with military experience + outside work experience.
aTm2004
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I don't understand it myself. You'd think that spending years in a structured environment like that where snowflakes aren't kept around very long would count for something.

Just a question...outside of you believing you suck at school, is there anything keeping you from trying to get your degree?
johnrth
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aTm2004 said:

Just a question...outside of you believing you suck at school, is there anything keeping you from trying to get your degree?
I've been trying off and on since 2009. Was lucky in 2010 and got the job I'm at now, and in 2011 had our first child. So with having a full time 9-5 job and now a family, I've found it even more difficult to finish school. I've finally told myself that getting into A&M is more than likely out of the question because of my grades and because my wife wouldn't want to move closer to CS, and that I may be stuck with shooting for an online degree from Lamar or something since they offer more online options than most places.
powerbelly
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Quote:

I apologize for the rant, I'm just trying to,understand why a 22yr old out of college will always have a better chance than someone with military experience + outside work experience.

Because there is some value in knowing someone completed optional 4 year schooling.

If you "suck at school" I assume you also suck in other similar unstructured environments.
Texags is garbage
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powerbelly51 said:


Quote:

I apologize for the rant, I'm just trying to,understand why a 22yr old out of college will always have a better chance than someone with military experience + outside work experience.

Because there is some value in knowing someone completed optional 4 year schooling.

If you "suck at school" I assume you also suck in other similar unstructured environments.


That's the part that stuck out like a sore thumb to me and would rightfully raise some red flags depending on the position.
www.JimboFisher.Ninja
johnrth
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People learn in different ways. Again, I'm more of a hands on learner. College isn't a structured environment like the military is and I can see how some would view, if they can make it through college that isn't structured then they can make it though work. But isn't having a career structured? Don't you need structure to succeed in the work place? You need to be there on time, you need to get your work done, etc. The difference is in college you have more free will, but there are people who can skate by and get C's and D's who don't know time management, or responsibility because mom and pop paid for everything while they were in school.

How is the military not optional like college is optional? I've known a handful of people that couldn't make it in the military because it was too structured. They were ****bags and either did drugs to be kicked out, continually screwed up to be kicked out,and one guy I worked with shot himself in the leg on purpose to be kicked out.

Let my comment of "I suck at school" be a red flag for you. I'm not applying to your work place and I'm not putting that on my resume or saying it an interview.

My point is, is if someones resume meets everything required for the job, but the only thing lacking is the degree then why toss them aside? Why does it seem most places won't give them the oppurtunity to try and sell themselves in an interview. Isn't that what the interview is for?
powerbelly
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In my experience, the business world is significantly less structured than college. Especially as you move up in your career.

No one tells me when to show up, when to leave, what to spend my time on, where to work from, etc. The only thing that matters is results.

I find that many military resumes I see have a difficult time explaining why their skills would translate well in the business world, especially if they were something like infantry. That will cause your resume to go into the trash far before a lack of college degree.
AgLA06
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Unless it's an entry level management position how would "dealing with people" provide any real equivalent to a degree? Unless you were an officer (that generally requires a degree) you didn't manage budgets, training and goals were mandated to you, as was most of the planned activities for the month, day, year.

You understand how to manage a fire team in the military, but yelling, profanity, and push-ups don't fit the motivational guidelines of corporate life.

Not taking the opportunity to get a degree with the GI bill is also a red flag.

If you can provide insight to the above in a professional cover letter, then your odds go up. If not, degrees offer the better long term pay back than military experience in the corporate environment.

My opinion isn't worth much, but I'd suggest focussing on operations, material handling / warehouse, technician or fabrication supervisor roles. Doing is better than degrees in most of those and they can lead to corporate office environments.
AgLA06
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Keep in mind that one of the biggest "doing" fields (O&G) is on a steep dive right now. There are lots and lots of field Engineers and completion guys with similar experience "doing" looking for jobs as well. Many also with degrees.

That doesn't help your chances.
Vernada
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One of the keys I see in your OP is "big companies".

They have lots of positions and probably see lots of applicants... one of the easiest ways to get that applicant pool down to something manageable is to have baseline requirements.

I would suggest that if you want a chance to blur the lines you need to focus on a small company where they are simply more concerned with getting the right people who can get the job done and maybe don't care as much about a piece of paper.
Rusty GCS
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If it's just a check box on the website then click what they want. Don't let a program screen you.

Do you have a degree? Yes
Do you have 20 years experience? Yes

Be honest in your resume' but click the boxes they want
Eliminatus
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A HUGE part of this equation is what you are applying for. Some jobs need a certain degree. Plain and simple and those are easy to spot. Anything STEM related for example.

Then there is a slew of jobs that a type of degree is required but it there is some leeway. Your degree may not be focused on it but still remain pertinent. I think the majority of jobs fit into this category. It's why you often have two employees working the same thing but with different degrees.

Then there is the "We need some paper with your name on it" jobs. It's a check in the box at most.

Military experience only works from the two latter groups. And only when someone takes a chance on you.

Sucks to suck, man. I know. I am in the same boat sorta.
Eliminatus
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powerbelly51 said:

In my experience, the business world is significantly less structured than college. Especially as you move up in your career.

No one tells me when to show up, when to leave, what to spend my time on, where to work from, etc. The only thing that matters is results.

I find that many military resumes I see have a difficult time explaining why their skills would translate well in the business world, especially if they were something like infantry. That will cause your resume to go into the trash far before a lack of college degree.

As much as I hate to admit it, you are right. When I first left service it was an absolute crapshoot. I was infantry and nobody was looking for that. Which I understand completely. Definitely not complaining. It is what it is.

As the years go by I find myself omitting more and more of my military experience from my resume. My current one only mentions a generic service date. It doesn't translate directly on paper. Nothing tangible at least. I have two tailored resumes that don't even mention it all.
Ulrich
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I suspect it's less a stated preference for degree over military and more a basic screen at a time when degrees are extremely common, including among ex-military applicants.

We have dozens or hundreds of people apply for each office job opening, and of those a substantial number are not even in the ballpark. Truck drivers applying to be financial analysts, cashiers applying to be accounting managers, that kind of thing. They are spamming applications to every job with one of their keywords in the description.

99% of applicants who have a reasonable chance of succeeding in these roles have degrees. 99% of those who don't have degrees would get laughed out of room in an interview. Screening on a bachelor's degree saves everyone a lot of time at low cost. Unfortunately, there is that 1%.
Eliminatus
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johnrth said:

People learn in different ways. Again, I'm more of a hands on learner. College isn't a structured environment like the military is and I can see how some would view, if they can make it through college that isn't structured then they can make it though work. But isn't having a career structured? Don't you need structure to succeed in the work place? You need to be there on time, you need to get your work done, etc. The difference is in college you have more free will, but there are people who can skate by and get C's and D's who don't know time management, or responsibility because mom and pop paid for everything while they were in school.

How is the military not optional like college is optional? I've known a handful of people that couldn't make it in the military because it was too structured. They were ****bags and either did drugs to be kicked out, continually screwed up to be kicked out,and one guy I worked with shot himself in the leg on purpose to be kicked out.

Let my comment of "I suck at school" be a red flag for you. I'm not applying to your work place and I'm not putting that on my resume or saying it an interview.

My point is, is if someones resume meets everything required for the job, but the only thing lacking is the degree then why toss them aside? Why does it seem most places won't give them the oppurtunity to try and sell themselves in an interview. Isn't that what the interview is for?

This is key. You are in competition with others. When everyone else also hits those requirements AND has a degree, of course they will win out. Unless you had a very technical MOS in the past. I imagine there is a sliding spectrum of what kind of job where this becomes a grey area. More technical based jobs Others it is out of the question. You have to beat them straight out on the resume before you even get to an interview.

I will offer my advice on the matter. Take it with a grain of salt as it is my opinion.

Tailor your military experience on your resume to fit into what businesses are looking for. No one gives a **** about "personal integrity and responsibility". That is a canned response that everyone gives. If you can directly apply something that they are looking for, then great. Like perhaps experience with geomapping or leading the construction of a FOB. If you can't add things like that.....cut it from your resume. Nuances will come out in interviews if need be but on trying to sell yourself on a page or two, it's not worth it. List pertinent skills and experience ONLY.

What you CAN do is flesh out your resume with certifications in the meantime. This shows that you put in time, effort, and money into building yourself up. Since I have been out I have managed to pad out my resume with things like CPR instructor, EMT-B, UXO Technician, Biomed manufacturing tech, Heavy equipment operator, etc. This is the stuff that has more or less substituted my military service. It is still not a degree but it does show some attempt at trying to build your skillset. All of which takes time and effort, and for most of those certs a considerable amount of money out of pocket as well. I am in school now working on my degree but for the last 8 years since ive been out I have had to make do without that diploma. So I have learned the hard way that a large chunk of the the career field will thank you for your service, and then trash your resume. I am not even mad about it anymore. It is what it is. Instead I am trying to give them what they want.

Good luck to both of us.
MemphisAg1
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John -- I'm an enlisted veteran also. I sucked at school early in life too, until I realized after four years of service that it was the ticket to a better life. Gave me a lot more focus and determination to go back to school. The first semester was hard (math, chemistry, english), but I stuck with it and did fine.

That college degree opened doors. I worked my tail off and have been blessed with a great career.

It's not too late for you to go back to school. How old will you be four to six years from now if you don't get a degree?

I encourage you to give it another try.
Aggiehunter34
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AgLA06 said:

Unless it's an entry level management position how would "dealing with people" provide any real equivalent to a degree? Unless you were an officer (that generally requires a degree) you didn't manage budgets, training and goals were mandated to you, as was most of the planned activities for the month, day, year.


Wrong...you must not know how the military works, especially for SNCOs.

I managed multi-million dollar budgets and supervised many contracts in the Air Force. I was in 22 years and I completely understand where the OP is coming from. I do believe that many jobs lose out on getting a fantastic worker, because of the need for a degree.

I was blessed enough to come out of the AF with a BS in Healthcare Management and a MBA degree. It didn't make me any better than any of the other folks I served with, just different circumstances. I understood that the mentality of what the OP was talking about was real out in the civilian side of things and worked hard to address that before I retired.

I do feel like there needs to be better classes offered for our military (other than TAPS) in regard to resume writing. It is critical to equate your military experience into the civilian language.

For example...I was a Combat Medic who worked in every possible setting throughout the hospital to include labor and delivery, pediatrics, ICU, Emergency Room, Allergy and Immunizations, Family Practice clinics, and Medical Surgical units, just to name a few. My last 5 years in the service I was an In-service Recruiter for the AF and it was my job to place candidates into hard to fill positions throughout the AF, such as Combat Controllers, Pararescue, EOD, and many others. I was blessed to be rated the #1 in-service recruiter in the entire AF during my tenure. This was 100% a sales job and took a special personality to be able to understand ones that had the potential to do those certain jobs. I don't say that to brag, please do not take that the wrong way. My point of sharing this was to say that, when I retired I wanted so badly to go into the Pharmaceutical or Med Device sales business. I applied for every open position and had the hardest time getting anyone to even interview me, because I didn't have B2B sales experience. That was a tough pill to swallow (no pun intended). I had just come out of a successful military career, had tons of supervising experience, all the education that I needed, but I couldn't equate my sales experience as an in-service recruiter in order to even get a second look.

I am now Chief of Patient Safety at a large facility and enjoy what I do.

To the OP:
The Lord opens and closes doors. My suggestion to you would be to work on an online degree, even if it is one class at a time. In the end it will pay off. I know the struggle all to well of holding down a full time job, married, being a dad to 3 kids, and trying to study and do well in college. It is not easy, BUT, it is achievable.

Wishing you the best in your future endeavors my fellow brother in arms.
AggieWife2008
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S
My hudband served honorably in the Marine Corps then went to A&M and graduated with two degrees with honors. He even struggles to get something worth while because not too many people count his time in the military as work experience. He is treated like a 22 year old new grad all of the time and he is not getting a leg up like you say all new grads are getting.
Aggiehunter34
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"You understand how to manage a fire team in the military, but yelling, profanity, and push-ups don't fit the motivational guidelines of corporate life."


This one cracked me up. I was at the top of the Enlisted chain and never once yelled or used profanity to motivate an individual in the AF....not one. I always used the tactic of getting to know my people, what made them motivated and work that angle. I never had to yell, in fact, just about every Airman I ever supervised would be more disappointed in themselves if I ever had to correct their behavior. They knew that you don't take kindness as a weakness. I told them my expectations and when those were not met, then there were consequences. It didn't mean I cared for them any less, it was just that standards had to be upheld and whatever I told them would happen, did happen when they messed up. They would beat themselves up more than anything. After punishment was dealt, then it was time to pick them up, and start building them back up to what the AF needed them to be.

I suggest getting to know a few military folks, from all branches, before you put a judgment statement like that out there.
AgLA06
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Aggiehunter34 said:

"You understand how to manage a fire team in the military, but yelling, profanity, and push-ups don't fit the motivational guidelines of corporate life."


This one cracked me up. I was at the top of the Enlisted chain and never once yelled or used profanity to motivate an individual in the AF....not one. I always used the tactic of getting to know my people, what made them motivated and work that angle. I never had to yell, in fact, just about every Airman I ever supervised would be more disappointed in themselves if I ever had to correct their behavior. They knew that you don't take kindness as a weakness. I told them my expectations and when those were not met, then there were consequences. It didn't mean I cared for them any less, it was just that standards had to be upheld and whatever I told them would happen, did happen when they messed up. They would beat themselves up more than anything. After punishment was dealt, then it was time to pick them up, and start building them back up to what the AF needed them to be.

I suggest getting to know a few military folks, from all branches, before you put a judgment statement like that out there.


Talk about judgment statements and being very wrong. I must have hit a nerve. Read this thread again.

He asked to explain why he's having difficulty and what I wrote is the general public's perception. Hence, he needs to be able to clearly explain how his experience applies in a professional cover letter.

For every one of you there are thousands of vets entering the real world with limited experience that applies to a white collar job. And many that do have the experience also have a hard time communicating it in the 20 seconds someone gives a resume in review.

The best part is your attitude in these responses is a perfect example of the quote that cracked you up. Fortune 500s are less and less willing to mess with HR issues and resulting lawsuits from the irrational aggression and harassment that follows hand in hand. It just doesn't fly in corporate America anymore.

ThreeFive
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John,

You're letting yourself make excuses when you know what the roadblocks are. Don't let yourself find an excuse.

I probably wouldn't have been classified as "good at school" coming out of high school, but I went to a commuter college, raised my GPA, then transferred into A&M. After A&M, I became an officer in the military. After 4 years in the military, I went back to school and got an engineering degree in 3.5 years while working 40-50 hour weeks.

You have free tuition assistance at your finger tips with the GI Bill. It's an excellent opportunity to carve your own path.

Feel free to leave an email and we can discuss further.
Aggiehunter34
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My apologies, as I misread your statement as something you were saying. Thanks for the clarification.

My point was simply that many corporations miss out on some great talent. Does that mean that every member who served would be a great candidate? Absolutely not...there are bad workers in every group. I simply was empathizing with him and letting him know I understood his frustration. He knows what he has to do, and there really is no way around it, if you want to excel your chances in finding a better paying job.
SquirrellyDan
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AG
AgLA06 said:

Aggiehunter34 said:

"You understand how to manage a fire team in the military, but yelling, profanity, and push-ups don't fit the motivational guidelines of corporate life."


This one cracked me up. I was at the top of the Enlisted chain and never once yelled or used profanity to motivate an individual in the AF....not one. I always used the tactic of getting to know my people, what made them motivated and work that angle. I never had to yell, in fact, just about every Airman I ever supervised would be more disappointed in themselves if I ever had to correct their behavior. They knew that you don't take kindness as a weakness. I told them my expectations and when those were not met, then there were consequences. It didn't mean I cared for them any less, it was just that standards had to be upheld and whatever I told them would happen, did happen when they messed up. They would beat themselves up more than anything. After punishment was dealt, then it was time to pick them up, and start building them back up to what the AF needed them to be.

I suggest getting to know a few military folks, from all branches, before you put a judgment statement like that out there.


Talk about judgment statements and being very wrong. I must have hit a nerve. Read this thread again.

He asked to explain why he's having difficulty and what I wrote is the general public's perception. Hence, he needs to be able to clearly explain how his experience applies in a professional cover letter.

For every one of you there are thousands of vets entering the real world with limited experience that applies to a white collar job. And many that do have the experience also have a hard time communicating it in the 20 seconds someone gives a resume in review.

The best part is your attitude in these responses is a perfect example of the quote that cracked you up. Fortune 500s are less and less willing to mess with HR issues and resulting lawsuits from the irrational aggression and harassment that follows hand in hand. It just doesn't fly in corporate America anymore.


What?
AgLA06
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primomosquito said:

AgLA06 said:

"You understand how to manage a fire team in the military, but yelling, profanity, and push-ups don't fit the motivational guidelines of corporate life."



Fortune 500s are less and less willing to mess with HR issues and resulting lawsuits from the irrational aggression and harassment that follows hand in hand. It just doesn't fly in corporate America anymore.


What?


Military motivation and consequences are very different from those in the white collar environment for those that can't adjust.
X-43
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I can definitely empathize with test anxiety. I remember reading on the boards that A&M has a program that works with students that have severe test anxiety. One poster said they went to a certain building to take all of their exams in a more comfortable environment and without a time limit. I think some schools will allow you to take oral exams instead of written. I'd encourage you to contact the schools you're interested in to see what kind of help they can provide.

I'm a engineer in the aerospace business. Half of the people I work with are former enlisted members of the AF and Marines and the other are engineers. There are still some good jobs out there for non-degreed former military but they are hard to find. Logistics is one area where I've seen opportunities like that come open. It is also going to depend somewhat on what you did in the military. If you'd rather do an online degree, Embry-Riddle has programs from certifications to associates, bachelors, up through a Ph.D. Most of their programs are geared towards aviation but they also have programs in Logistics, Emergency Services, Homeland Security, Tech Management, etc.

I know this doesn't answer your question but just wanted to encourage you to not give up on pursuing a degree since it can open more doors for you and your family. Good luck,
always gig em
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Don't give up OP, if you want a degree, GO GET IT. FROM A&M.

I went back late and got mine, life, blah blah blah. Actually commuted weekly 6 semesters. You can do it man. Here's online options if you can't commute:

http://distance.tamu.edu

http://education.tamu.edu/degrees-and-programs/online-programs
always gig em
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And if you still feel you "can't do it because of (insert weak excuse here)", this story is on the front page of Texags:

https://texags.com/s/24362/lance-jackson-discusses-30-year-journey-to-his-aggie-ring-diploma
AFDave13
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MemphisAg1 said:

John -- I'm an enlisted veteran also. I sucked at school early in life too, until I realized after four years of service that it was the ticket to a better life. Gave me a lot more focus and determination to go back to school. The first semester was hard (math, chemistry, english), but I stuck with it and did fine.

That college degree opened doors. I worked my tail off and have been blessed with a great career.

It's not too late for you to go back to school. How old will you be four to six years from now if you don't get a degree?

I encourage you to give it another try.
I'll echo this statement. I was a terrible student in High School and an awful student while in the military taking online classes. When I came to A&M full-time, I was able to complete and excel at engineering calculus courses.

With age comes wisdom...give school another try.
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