Genuine question for America First

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jacketman03
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4:49p, 11/11/24
AG
I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle
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bonfarr
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In reply to jacketman03 • 4:50p, 11/11/24
AG
jacketman03 said:
I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle


Well for one Israel can win.

Ukraine can't.
Disclaimer: Views expressed in this post reflect the opinions of Texags user bonfarr and are not to be accepted as facts or to be accepted at face value.
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13B
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4:50p, 11/11/24
Are you saying Ronald Reagan wasn't America first?
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4:52p, 11/11/24
AG
You clearly have no idea who and what Reagan was
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texagbeliever
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In reply to bonfarr • 4:53p, 11/11/24
And thread over.

Wars aren't won by feelings they are won by who has the ability to win and how easily and willing to accept that fact is the opponent. Prolonging the Russian war has done more to end the Ukranian race and culture then cedeing half the country ever would have.
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the most cool guy
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4:53p, 11/11/24
I'm not saying we should abandon Ukraine, but answer this question:

If we are going 100% America first, why does it matter to the United States whether Ukraine gets annexed by Russia or not? Again, not saying we should abandon Ukraine, and I don't necessarily even know the answer to the question I'm asking you. But why do you think it matters?
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fredfredunderscorefred
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4:54p, 11/11/24
AG
Do you support Ukrainians dying because it is in their best interest or America's interest? What is "America first" in your mind?
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akm91
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4:55p, 11/11/24
AG
Oh look a "rookie" poster that has posted once a year since account created in 2010
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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HumbleAg04
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4:55p, 11/11/24
AG
Israel is a strategic ally in a volatile global region. Ukraine is a money laundering operation masquerading as a war.
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AggieDruggist89
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4:56p, 11/11/24
AG
Name me a country who is not "my country" first.

Then let's talk about why we should be America first.
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techno-ag
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4:56p, 11/11/24
AG
When America is first it's best for the world order because bad characters don't get out of line. HTH.
Trump will fix it.
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Psycho Bunny
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In reply to jacketman03 • 4:57p, 11/11/24
Israel is our only true ally in the Middle East

Ukraine is a 3rd world s***hole that drains America pocket books.

Reagan himself would not have spent a dime on funding the Ukraine war. He would have found other means to break the Russian government's will power. All Biden has done is put Putin deeper in bed with Iran and China.

And what's wrong with American First? I'm so sick of D.C. politicians worried about other countries and not worried about the American people in our own back yard. The rest of world sure don't come help us in times of need, why should we help them.
The voices in my head are fighting, one of my imaginary friends is running with scissors and 2 of my personalities have escaped.

I enjoy nightmares, when I wake up, they leave deeply valuing my reality.
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cecil77
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4:57p, 11/11/24
AG
Trump has made it clear that he believes EVERY country should put their country first.
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Science Denier
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In reply to jacketman03 • 4:57p, 11/11/24
AG
jacketman03 said:
For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas.


Trump will stop the war. That is in everyone's best interest.

LOL OLD
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titan
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In reply to jacketman03 • 4:58p, 11/11/24
S
jacketman03 said:
I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle
Not so much in that camp per-se, but can throw a point or two.

Islamists are at war with us since 9/11 and directly attacking. Unless some kind of rapprochement has happened, Hamas and Hezbollah remain direct enemies of us. Its natural to support anyone fighting with them.

Ukraine and Russia is part of a longstanding fight between them that is not a direct attack on us, so not directly comparable. That said, however, we did unwisely give assurance to Ukraine in 1994. This makes it not so easy to say we do not have a responsibility. Its even worse when you consider Biden and Kamala probably sort of caused the invasion instead of deterring it.

What we don't need to get involved in is trying to do a bunch of stuff retroactively. The time to argue about Crimea is well past and was allowed to lapse during 44 admin. This should not be allowed to complicate attempts to broker an end to the war now.

What can be said is it isn't a direct threat to us, but getting into a war with Russia that should be avoided is.

So it doesnt' have an easy answer. But a power must look to its direct interest first. 1994 is your sticking point and probably a mistake (wish Taiwan had nukes for the same reason -- anti-proliferation was negated by W and Obama.)
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RAB87
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In reply to HumbleAg04 • 4:58p, 11/11/24
AG
HumbleAg04 said:
Israel is a strategic ally in a volatile global region. Ukraine is a money laundering operation masquerading as a war.
well said
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jacketman03
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In reply to Science Denier • 4:58p, 11/11/24
AG
So what's his plan to stop the war in Ukraine?

And in that case, why isn't he interested in stopping the war in Gaza?


Edited to fix Google's autocorrect failure on me
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SanDiegoAg12
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In reply to jacketman03 • 4:58p, 11/11/24
AG
What's bad for world stability is NATO countries not properly funding and counting on America to cover everything.

Ukraine going to Russia is significantly worse for them in the short term than it is for us.

I'm happy for America to lead from the front, but not when the rest of the world leaders openly undermine and criticize us. Not when WHO is corrupted from the inside and doesn't want to hold China accountable.

And finally, Israel is a named ally to America and has backed us in the Middle East. Ukraine doesn't equal NATO so not an ally.
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Science Denier
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In reply to jacketman03 • 5:00p, 11/11/24
AG
jacketman03 said:
So what's his plan to stop the war in Ukraine?

And I'm that care, why isn't he interested in stopping the war in Gaza?


Don't know his plan. He's a very good negotiator. Our foreign policy was nails when he was POTUS.

He will sit both of them down and the war will stop.
LOL OLD
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titan
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In reply to jacketman03 • 5:01p, 11/11/24
S
jacketman03 said:
So what's his plan to stop the war in Ukraine?

And I'm that care, why isn't he interested in stopping the war in Gaza?
On the first, if he does, hope he tells no one till he discusses it with those in the know. Not the media or us.

Stopping the war in Gaza with fanatics probably does involve scorched earth and can't be done civilly. Not our task.
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WolfCall
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In reply to jacketman03 • 5:04p, 11/11/24
AG
Genuine question for OP?:

Did you ask similar questions about whether the following were good for America: DEI, Requiring Males identifying as girls be allowed to play on girls' women's teams, woke/cancel culture, antisemitism, universities caving to Hamas demonstrators/rioters, the forcing of vaccines and school closures during Covid, newsrooms with 100% democrats (including NPR), inflationary policies of the Democrats, university professors overwhelmingly Democrat and anti-Israel ......????
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MaxPower
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In reply to bonfarr • 5:04p, 11/11/24
bonfarr said:
jacketman03 said:
I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle


Well for one Israel can win.

Ukraine can't.
Curious as to which countries you think could beat Russia if / when they want to annex them and the further subset of those countries you would actually support providing military aid?
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AggieDruggist89
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In reply to jacketman03 • 5:05p, 11/11/24
AG
jacketman03 said:
So what's his plan to stop the war in Ukraine?


Put ***** Putin in his place and have him abide by Petrodollar and behave like a subservient OPEC country. Then Trump can slowly ease the sanctions.

War stops, everyone saves face including Kim jong Un who sent 10,000 NK soldiers who will retrieve em.
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aggiehawg
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5:06p, 11/11/24
AG
Russia is a nation invading another neighboring nation as in a border dispute.

Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations that also threaten America and Americans.

HTH..
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jacketman03
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In reply to aggiehawg • 5:07p, 11/11/24
AG
What was the last terrorist attack in America or on American interests perpetrated by Hamas or Hezbollah?
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bonfarr
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In reply to MaxPower • 5:07p, 11/11/24
AG
MaxPower said:
bonfarr said:
jacketman03 said:
I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle


Well for one Israel can win.

Ukraine can't.
Curious as to which countries you think could beat Russia if / when they want to annex them and the further subset of those countries you would actually support providing military aid?


Define "beat".
Disclaimer: Views expressed in this post reflect the opinions of Texags user bonfarr and are not to be accepted as facts or to be accepted at face value.
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Fat Black Swan
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In reply to jacketman03 • 5:11p, 11/11/24
AG
jacketman03 said:
I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle


Great to see Mike Pence on TexAgs.

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texagbeliever
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In reply to MaxPower • 5:11p, 11/11/24
MaxPower said:
bonfarr said:
jacketman03 said:
I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle


Well for one Israel can win.

Ukraine can't.
Curious as to which countries you think could beat Russia if / when they want to annex them and the further subset of those countries you would actually support providing military aid?

As Russia expands they will actually become weaker. It will be harder to keep the different races under the thumb and the cost of enforcing power will supercede the production from the country. See USSR as an example of that.
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sam callahan
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5:11p, 11/11/24
The kryptonite of any Neo-con is defining the objective and putting forth a reasonable plan to achieve it.

Shoveling money is neither - unless the objective is to make some rich at the expense of taxpayers.
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aggiehawg
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In reply to jacketman03 • 5:12p, 11/11/24
AG
jacketman03 said:
What was the last terrorist attack in America or on American interests perpetrated by Hamas or Hezbollah?
You are too young to remember the Marines mass murdered in Beirut?
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taxpreparer
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In reply to titan • 5:13p, 11/11/24
AG
titan said:
jacketman03 said:
I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle
Not so much in that camp per-se, but can throw a point or two.

Islamists are at war with us since 9/11 and directly attacking. Unless some kind of rapprochement has happened, Hamas and Hezbollah remain direct enemies of us. Its natural to support anyone fighting with them.

Ukraine and Russia is part of a longstanding fight between them that is not a direct attack on us, so not directly comparable. That said, however, we did unwisely give assurance to Ukraine in 1994. This makes it not so easy to say we do not have a responsibility. Its even worse when you consider Biden and Kamala probably sort of caused the invasion instead of deterring it.

What we don't need to get involved in is trying to do a bunch of stuff retroactively. The time to argue about Crimea is well past and was allowed to lapse during 44 admin. This should not be allowed to complicate attempts to broker an end to the war now.

What can be said is it isn't a direct threat to us, but getting into a war with Russia that should be avoided is.

So it doesnt' have an easy answer. But a power must look to its direct interest first. 1994 is your sticking point and probably a mistake (wish Taiwan had nukes for the same reason -- anti-proliferation was negated by W and Obama.)


One correction, if I may; Islamists have been at war with us, since Jimmy Carter's was president, at least
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jacketman03
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In reply to titan • 5:13p, 11/11/24
AG
I have no problem with giving Israel everything they want to get rid of Hamas and Hezbollah, as I think we should support our allies when they have been attacked.

My question is why are Ukraine and Israel treated differently, when they appear similarly situated (mutual defense treaty with Israel, defense guarantees for Ukraine).

In any event, the biggest issue wrt Ukraine and Russia is the US acting like Russia was going to become friendly and non-expansionist post-1991.
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jacketman03
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In reply to aggiehawg • 5:16p, 11/11/24
AG
Oh, I'm well aware of the Beirut bombing, many good Marines killed that terrible day. But the US sure hasn't acted like they're an enemy that must be defeated since then, to our eternal shame.
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jokershady
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In reply to Science Denier • 5:20p, 11/11/24
AG
Science Denier said:
jacketman03 said:
So what's his plan to stop the war in Ukraine?

And I'm that care, why isn't he interested in stopping the war in Gaza?


Don't know his plan. He's a very good negotiator. Our foreign policy was nails when he was POTUS.

He will sit both of them down and the war will stop.
and take a YUUUUUGE dump on Putins desk and stick a miniature American flag in it…..
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titan
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In reply to jacketman03 • 5:27p, 11/11/24
S
jacketman03 said:
I have no problem with giving Israel everything they want to get rid of Hamas and Hezbollah, as I think we should support our allies when they have been attacked.

My question is why are Ukraine and Israel treated differently, when they appear similarly situated (mutual defense treaty with Israel, defense guarantees for Ukraine).

In any event, the biggest issue wrt Ukraine and Russia is the US acting like Russia was going to become friendly and non-expansionist post-1991.
Well in a way, we never did much act that way this century. We have treated China far more kindly with no reforms or change after Tiananmen really overtly made. Even Yeltsin had some complaints. I am not in the camp wanting aid cut off flat ---- we made that 1994 stance. But wanted the war escalating talk of "stacking bodies" and basic war baiting when its not our war to stop. Ukraine vs Russia is an old clash.

Israel also has influence with us on a whole different level is part of your answer--more comparable to Britain's.
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