jokershady said:

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Science Denier said:

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jacketman03 said:

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So what's his plan to stop the war in Ukraine?

And I'm that care, why isn't he interested in stopping the war in Gaza?

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Don't know his plan. He's a very good negotiator. Our foreign policy was nails when he was POTUS.

He will sit both of them down and the war will stop.

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and take a YUUUUUGE dump on Putins desk and stick a miniature American flag in it…..

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don't forget and make them pay for it.

aggiehawg said:

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Russia is a nation invading another neighboring nation as in a border dispute.

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and largely because we (American CIA) overthrew a democratically elected government that was Russia friendly.

Loren Visser said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Russia is a nation invading another neighboring nation as in a border dispute.

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and largely because we (American CIA) overthrew a democratically elected government that was Russia friendly.

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CIA taking L's since the 1960's

Why did Russia choose to go to war when Trump was out of office?

America first means defending our interests on a global stage. Adversaries see this and act accordingly. You're now asking a question about what america first would do for Ukraine instead of asking how America second/last screwed Ukraine

jacketman03 said:

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I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle

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EZ we hate warmongering and war profiteering. We believe in peace through strength and avoiding war, without sending our hard earned taxpayer dollars oversees, while we have unbalanced budgets.

It's immortal to spend more than you have in your personal finances, and its even worse when corrupt politicians create wars where they could be avoided, all for personal profit.

If someone starts trouble hit them hard, ONCE, and cut deep. Then get out as soon as the job is done, and don't do nation building.

Being truly AF means NO foreign aid to anyone.

Well when Russia invaded in Feb 2022, I felt it was sort of The Potterry Barn Rule. We broke it back in 2014, during the Maidan Revolution so we own it.

Ukraine has long been corrupt, so that came with the territory but Zelensky's actions since then have given me not only indigestion but also pause. Arming one strongman against another, although a time honored and a clandestine preoccupation with doing so by the CIA, is just another way of saying, "He ay be Satan, but he's OUR Satan."

HumbleAg04 said:

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Israel is a strategic ally in a volatile global region. Ukraine is a money laundering operation masquerading as a war.

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And an AI battlefield data collection testbed

aggiehawg said:

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Well when Russia invaded in Feb 2022, I felt it was sort of The Potterry Barn Ruke. We broke it back in 2014, during the Maidan Revolution so we own it.

Ukraine has long been corrupt, so that came with the territory but Zelensky's actions since then have given me not only indigestion but also pause. Arming one strongman against another, although a time honored and a clandestine preoccupation with doing so by the CIA, is just another way of saying, "He ay be Satan, but he's OUR Satan."

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True enough, but the problem is its again like if China was meddling with making Mexico's government into their proxy. They CAN back down, we can't. Too much at stake. Same with Russia. They can't back down as long as we meddle with Ukraine. But we also can't tolerate invasions --- problem is Biden basically greenlighted it.

We had no business meddling with a direct neighbor of Russia. Now its getting out of hand. Its the Cuba as Soviet proxy problem. No way to resolve it if you insist on maintaining the proxy. We even did invade Cuba over it, just low key. The next would not have been had it not wrapped up.

Its a real mess in diplomatic terms. There is hope now because maybe the direct profiteers from the conflict have been separated from it, and without that prejudicing talks, maybe something can be worked out. We need to remind Russia we have our 1994 assurance that we have to take into account, just as they any of their nat security concerns. If any can do this, its the Trump style approach that brought peace in the Mideast.

HumbleAg04 said:

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Israel is a strategic ally in a volatile global region. Ukraine is a money laundering operation masquerading as a war.

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Concise and spot on. Well said.

America first is simply that we, as Americans, put out interests first before non-Americans. It is not the same as an American, e.g. Joe Biden, puts his financial interest first, when dealing with Ukraine or other countries. Defining the U.S. interest would include the suppression of terrorists, such as Hamas, who are out for our destruction. Ukraine on the other hand presents different issues, that may or may not align with our interests.

Also we've spent roughly 150 billion dollars on aid to Israel in 50 years and roughly 90 billion dollars on aid to Ukraine in 2-3 years. I'm not pro-Putin, but this isn't sustainable.

Well, I mean, it's fairly obvious. Never get involved in a land war in Asia. It's the most famous classic blunder of all time.

jacketman03 said:

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What was the last terrorist attack in America or on American interests perpetrated by Hamas or Hezbollah?

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I think we can all agree these two organizations are largley clients and dependent on Iran? And that actions against them are largely against Iran -- no Iran no Ham or Hez?

I'm trying to think of the last time that fine Islamic republic has done something against the interests of the US?

Anyone?

I can't think of anyone important they were trying to assissinate recently - that is if you are a lefty. MOAB them into the ground is my opinion.

jacketman03 said:

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I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle

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I think the more important point is cutting off money to Russia and Trump will orchestrate this to the point Putin has to capitulate.

Trump did the same with Iran during his first term. He told China and other countries if you buy one barrel of oil from Iran you will not do business with the United States. As a result, Iran had a money supply issue and we didn't hear much from them from 2016-2020. Of course Biden fixed that pesky money problem for them and now look where we are.

The problem in Ukraine is that America has been manipulating it for decades, and has acted in a way we would never tolerate in Russia's shoes. We honestly backed Putin into a corner and the moment he saw enough weakness (Obama first, then Biden) he struck.

The resources that will be required to undo the changes made to the previously disputed border is simply not worth the cost.

Ever politician and citizen should be America first. The question is who is 2nd, 3rd,... and how much are we spending on them. And how does that help numero Uno the best.

jacketman03 said:

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I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle

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One starts a World War and they other eliminates a terror organization.

HumbleAg04 said:

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Israel is a strategic ally in a volatile global region.

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israel has siphoned off unconscionable amounts of $$$ from the us taxpayer.

Christian nations warring killing bunch of Christians on both sides is not palatable. Jews killing terrorists on the other hand....

Israel is fighting an enemy that likely has active plans for major terrorist plot in U.S. soil. Or put another way 10/7 was their 9/11. There is some deep solidarity there.

There is no meaningful difference between Hamas, isis, taliban, etc . And Israel is doing the work the US could never do. The US has a huge interest in stomping out Islamic terrorism like a cockroach. Therefore the tremendous value in having Israel mop things up.

If I was president I'd have a daily call with Netanyahu for a daily terrorist body bag count.

There is only a very remote strategic interest in Ukraine. The heavy lifting to help Ukraine can come from a lot of places in Europe who have way more skin in the game than US.

AggieDruggist89 said:

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Name me a country who is not "my country" first.

Then let's talk about why we should be America first.

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Canada

The Ukraine is as corrupt as Russia.

There are those of us that don't want to send money to either.

Yeah put me in the "we shouldn't be sending money to anyone for any reason" group

Grapes said:

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AggieDruggist89 said:

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Name me a country who is not "my country" first.

Then let's talk about why we should be America first.

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Canada

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Canada is Miss Congeniality.

taxpreparer said:

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titan said:

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jacketman03 said:

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I am not a Trump fan, and I also think America First is bad for world stability and American interests (I'm a Reagan style neocon which I understand is massively out of favor here and in the GOP), and I'm not looking to start a fight or anything, I'm just genuinely confused by something I've seen among the America First types.

For the life of me, I cannot find the throughline in America First foreign policy where Ukraine is not our fight and we need to cut off the money to them, but it's quite important to supply Israel with the lethal aid against Hamas. I'm trying, but I cannot make that discontinuity make sense to me, and I'm earnestly asking for help in squaring that circle

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Not so much in that camp per-se, but can throw a point or two.

Islamists are at war with us since 9/11 and directly attacking. Unless some kind of rapprochement has happened, Hamas and Hezbollah remain direct enemies of us. Its natural to support anyone fighting with them.

Ukraine and Russia is part of a longstanding fight between them that is not a direct attack on us, so not directly comparable. That said, however, we did unwisely give assurance to Ukraine in 1994. This makes it not so easy to say we do not have a responsibility. Its even worse when you consider Biden and Kamala probably sort of caused the invasion instead of deterring it.

What we don't need to get involved in is trying to do a bunch of stuff retroactively. The time to argue about Crimea is well past and was allowed to lapse during 44 admin. This should not be allowed to complicate attempts to broker an end to the war now.

What can be said is it isn't a direct threat to us, but getting into a war with Russia that should be avoided is.

So it doesnt' have an easy answer. But a power must look to its direct interest first. 1994 is your sticking point and probably a mistake (wish Taiwan had nukes for the same reason -- anti-proliferation was negated by W and Obama.)

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One correction, if I may; Islamists have been at war with us, since Jimmy Carter's was president, at least

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Look at the founding of the Marine Corps and Navy. Islamists (Barbary Pirates) were at war with us before US.

There are no good guys on either side of the Ukraine v Russia conflict. Our security and economic interests as a nation are certainly tied to the interests of Europe in terms of helping to keep a check on Russia, but Europe is big enough to stand on its own two feet. We can't be taking care of them forever and by us always helping them in outsized ways they continue to fail to grow up post WW2.

Israel on the other hand is the only western style democracy in the Middle East . They provide vital intelligence in a region that has global economic significance. There should be zero misunderstanding on who the good guys vs the bad guys are between the nation state of Israel and an Islamic terror group that desires to destroy Israel and the West.

Israel also happens to be a highly advanced economy with significant research capabilities in medicine, agriculture, technology, and defense.

The U.S. also had hundreds of thousands of civilian citizens that live in the Middle East. Jew, Muslim, Christian, and Secular.

Our economic and strategic interests are much higher and the consequences much greater should things go sideways and spiral out of control in the Middle East vs Ukraine.

Loren Visser said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Russia is a nation invading another neighboring nation as in a border dispute.

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and largely because we (American CIA) overthrew a democratically elected government that was Russia friendly.

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This.

Israel is a democracy acting as a democracy and they have the upper hand.

Ukraine says they're a democracy, but have suspended elections and are acting as a "friendly" dictatorship. They also can not win the war.

The three year fling with Ukraine is a money laundering scam between Zelensky, Putin, and the Americans who have the ability to clean US Taxpayer dollars.

Israel is and has been our trusted ally for decades and they are going to defeat a powerful enemy to all.

In Ukraine, I would push for a cease fire and the following deal:

1) hold elections (supervised by US or the UN). Each town will vote which side they want to be a part of. Maybe the Donbas wants to be part of Russia. If so, then they should be permitted to "secede" and join Russia.
2) A redraw of the border that maximizes the number of people living in the country that they want.
3) Free movement for refugees that want to move to the other side.
4) Time for each side to fortify the border against future invasion.

If Ukraine refuses to play ball, then we recognize the current Russian line as the boundary and Ukraine looses all occupied land. If Russia refuses to play ball, then we draw the line where we see fit and offer Ukraine air support to take their side back (this may be the pre-2014 border). If they both refuse, then we pull all support and tell them have at it.

the most cool guy said:

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I'm not saying we should abandon Ukraine, but answer this question:

If we are going 100% America first, why does it matter to the United States whether Ukraine gets annexed by Russia or not? Again, not saying we should abandon Ukraine, and I don't necessarily even know the answer to the question I'm asking you. But why do you think it matters?

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Do you realize, that next to the U.S., Ukraine does more to feed the world than almost all other countries. It is an agricultural giant. Very important that Russia doesn't control it. Also the major pipeline connection that Russia exports natural gas to the E U runs through the Ukraine.

Having said that I am still against US support of Ukraine in the war effort. I would prefer we solve the war by economic pressure on Russia, which Trump is capable of generating.

HumbleAg04 said:

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Israel is a strategic ally in a volatile global region. Ukraine is a money laundering operation masquerading as a war.

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the war in Israel is non ending it has been like this hundreds of years

4 said:

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You clearly have no idea who and what Reagan was......

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.........and, what you are talking about in the OP!

All Biden has done is put Putin deeper in bed.

aggiehawg said:

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jacketman03 said:

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What was the last terrorist attack in America or on American interests perpetrated by Hamas or Hezbollah?

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You are too young to remember the Marines mass murdered in Beirut?

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October 7, last year.