Sea Speed said:

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So now you can't be considered fast unless you have won Lemans?

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I see you totally missed her point.

Reading comprehension on this site sucks...

Teslag was talking about how they are fast and could whoop other cars in a race and she went off and talked about Lemans and how they don't have the ability to win endurance races. Sounds like she completely missed the point teslagwas making. Then she accused someone of not knowing who Shelby was because he disagreed with her. She started an argument about a point that absolutely no one was making ans you have been goal tending for her since she went on one of her increasingly more frequent tirades about something completely off the rails.

Teslag said:

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IslanderAg04 said:

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Manhattan said:

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https://www.autoevolution.com/news/confirmed-tesla-model-s-plaid-with-carbon-ceramic-brake-kit-reaches-205-mph-top-speed-211756.html

Someone claimed these were slow...

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Yawn.

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So a heavily modified $120,000 POS Camaro is only 5 mph faster and slower in the 1/4 mile than a stock Tesla family Sedan with upgraded brakes?

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Still cheaper than a plaid S with a 20k mod. Also comes with a warranty. Literally alls they did was a heads and cam package with some more boost and suspension mods. About 6-10k of work on a car you can get for 60k.

You do realize this car runs high 8's in the quarter and traps up to 160, and is a street car that runs on pump gas. I've seen it in person.

Want to cry about four doors? A stock Hellcat Charger has done 204 and is still 50k cheaper than the base S plaid. Whats your point?

Plus, you ever ridden in a POS ZL1? Build quality, fitment, and interior is 100% better then the cheap plastic you find in a Tesla.

Sea Speed said:

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Teslag was talking about how they are fast and could whoop other cars in a race and she went off and talked about Lemans and how they don't have the ability to win endurance races. Sounds like she completely missed the point teslagwas making. Then she accused someone of not knowing who Shelby was because he disagreed with her. She started an argument about a point that absolutely no one was making ans you have been goal tending for her since she went on one of her increasingly more frequent tirades about something completely off the rails.

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Last I checked, Lemans was a race, too.

She was just pointing out that the EVs have race limitations. If Teslag was going to bring up racing, why does it only have to be straight line racing for quarter mile.

Quote:

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Teslag was talking about how they are fast and could whoop other cars in a race and she went off and talked about Lemans and how they don't have the ability to win endurance races. Sounds like she completely missed the point teslagwas making.

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So no one else is allowed to make any points in a thread about EVs.

I am not the one who missed a point, seems to me.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Teslag was talking about how they are fast and could whoop other cars in a race and she went off and talked about Lemans and how they don't have the ability to win endurance races. Sounds like she completely missed the point teslagwas making.

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So no one else is allowed to make any points in a thread about EVs.

I am not the one who missed a point, seems to me.

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There are a lot of thread police in here it seems...

10thYrSr said:

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Teslag said:

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Formula 1. Red Bull Racing. And it's a V6 with electric hybrid drive.

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To be fair, it isn't made by Red Bull. It is sponsored by them. Who makes it and what engine is it based off of?

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The ice engine isn't made by Red Bull. It's made by Honda. But the car, the power recovery, suspensions, and aero is all developed in house by Red Bull Racing which is a subsidiary of the Red Bull Energy drink company.

Last I looked there is not a single consumer car (ICE or EV) that can take the overall win at LeMans.

tk for tu juan said:

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Last I looked there is not a single consumer car (ICE or EV) that can take the overall win at LeMans.

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Then again, at least they have a team.

Sea Speed said:

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So now you can't be considered fast unless you have won Lemans?

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The point is, both can be "fast". One however, dominates all forms of competition racing. Le Mans, F1, Super 8, Nascar, NHRA, IHRA, motoGP, Grand Prix, GT3 and etc

Ever watched Formula E? It's super ****ing boring.

Theres just this constant need for Tesla nutbags to prove how much better ev's are then ICE. Then when you show them a 130k Tesla getting smoked by an ICE driven car with similar hp they get super butt hurt then start magazine racing.

It's super frustrating to car enthusiasts who actually work, mod, and race their cars when most tesla drivers dont even know how to rotate their tires.

IslanderAg04 said:

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Sea Speed said:

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So now you can't be considered fast unless you have won Lemans?

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The point is, both can be "fast". One however, dominates all forms of competition racing. Le Mans, F1, Super 8, Nascar, NHRA, IHRA, motoGP, Grand Prix, GT3 and etc

Ever watched Formula E? It's super ****ing boring.

Theres just this constant need for Tesla nutbags to prove how much better ev's are then ICE. Then when you show them a 130k Tesla getting smoked by an ICE driven car with similar hp they get super butt hurt then start magazine racing.

It's super frustrating to car enthusiasts who actually work, mod, and race their cars when most tesla drivers dont even know how to rotate their tires.

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Most car enthusiasts enjoy going fast and power no matter how it is achieved

Many Teslas have staggered setups and directional tires.

Manhattan said:

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Many Teslas have staggered setups and directional tires.

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Thats not a Tesla thing dude. They've made directional tires for the past 30 years. Also didnt realize "some Teslas are the only cars in the entire ****ing world to have staggered setups.

So show me how to rotate the tires then, you are the one throwing stones.

Yeah but every time something is pointed out to the fanboys (this time it was yes they can go fast but they can't win endurance races), someone always wants to move the goalposts and say "that's not what we're talking about" or "Strawman!"

Right….

Manhattan said:

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So show me how to rotate the tires then, you are the one throwing stones.

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https://googlethatforyou.com/?q=how%20to%20ratate%20tires%20on%20a%20tesla

Next step, get off your ass.

IslanderAg04 said:

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Manhattan said:

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Many Teslas have staggered setups and directional tires.

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Thats not a Tesla thing dude. They've made directional tires for the past 30 years. Also didnt realize "some Teslas are the only cars in the entire ****ing world to have staggered setups.

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The point isn't the staggered and directional tires, the point is they can't be rotated.

bmks270 said:

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IslanderAg04 said:

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Manhattan said:

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Many Teslas have staggered setups and directional tires.

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Thats not a Tesla thing dude. They've made directional tires for the past 30 years. Also didnt realize "some Teslas are the only cars in the entire ****ing world to have staggered setups.

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The point isn't the staggered and directional tires, the point is they can't be rotated.

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You guys are impossible. I use both on the street and at the track.

https://tirehubz.com/how-often-to-rotate-staggered-tires/#:~:text=Here%E2%80%99s%20how%20to%20%EE%80%80rotate%EE%80%81%20your%20%EE%80%80staggered%EE%80%81%20directional%20%EE%80%80tires%EE%80%81%3A,%EE%80%80tire%EE%80%81%20on%20the%20same%20side%20of%20the%20vehicle.

https://piketransit.com/how-to-rotate-directional-tires/#:~:text=How%20To%20Rotate%20Directional%20Tires%3F%201%201.%20Know,...%203%203.%20Move%20The%20Front%20Left%20Tire

techno-ag said:

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Yeah but every time something is pointed out to the fanboys (this time it was yes they can go fast but they can't win endurance races), someone always wants to move the goalposts and say "that's not what we're talking about" or "Strawman!"

Right….

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The introduction of winning an endurance race into the discussion was the actual "moving the goalposts" in this case. The article/video that Manhattan posted was a STREET car doing some quick laps after installing the carbon ceramic brakes from Tesla. Zero to do with purpose built race cars or endurance racing

Neither article mentions if you have both, do you have a tire machine at home?

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The introduction of winning an endurance race into the discussion was the actual "moving the goalposts" in this case.

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Why?

Endurance races were designed for manufacturers of sports cars to show their durability for consumers to buy on the market. Ability to go fast is not the only metric people use in making a decision to purchase.

And notably over the past decade or so, Le Mans has had a separate category for EVs, hydrogen and hybrids called Garage 56. EVs have lasted from as little as 23 minutes to a max of 6 hours out of 24. The inherent problem is how a team "wins" as it the most miles (kilometers) traveled over that time period. Range is an issue.

But let's just pretend that doesn't exist.

Manhattan said:

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Neither article mentions if you have both, do you have a tire machine at home?

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Yup, for a whopping 59 bucks at harbor freight you could own one too.

Or I could get it done at Discount for free, way faster than with a manual tire iron.

Manhattan said:

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Or I could get it done at Discount for free, way faster than with a manual tire iron.

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Manual? Ever heard of an air compressor? Didn't see a discount tire on my last day at the track, but I'll keep looking.

Any similarities between a Le Mans prepped race car and a street car diverged a long time ago. The American manufacturers do not even build or develop their own race cars. I idea that the endurance race shows off their street car durability is just marketing hype.

A race car that only has to survive driving 3,300 miles on a fairly smooth surface for 24 hours is not going to be the same car that has to drive over 100,000 miles on Houston roads. 99% of the public would hate the NVH, bent rims, bent suspension pieces, and engine rebuilds necessary to keep a Le Mans race car going on city streets and stop/go traffic.

I've been watching racing since I was a kid, I know Le Mans exists.

Endurance races were designed to demonstrate durability for combustion vehicles. The causes of wear and failure of combustion vehicles is not the same as the causes of wear and failure of electric vehicles. Heat is the primary concern for combustion vehicles, and running an engine hot for 24 hours straight demonstrates how well a manufacturer understands dealing with the causes and consequences of that problem.

That is not remotely the primary concern for electric vehicles. An electric drivetrain is going to outlast every fuel burning engine, and it's going to do it without maintenance.

The primary durability concern for an electric vehicle is their battery management, which is simply not demonstrable in a 24 hour race. You're talking about thousands of charge/discharge cycles and done in an environment dramatically different than trying to rapidly refuel in a single day. Racing is fun, it is not a real world analogue for daily drivers.

That said the durability of an electric vehicle as a whole is extremely low on the real concerns surrounding electric vehicles. An electric drivetrain is going to last 500,000 miles or more (Tesla claims theirs is engineered to last in excess of a million miles), and the longevity of the battery is also not the primary concern. Tesla released a report last year that stated their high mileage vehicles, on an older battery chemistry, retains 90% of its original capacity at 200,000 miles.

The primary concerns around EVs are charge rate, range and price, which are problems that are improving, and any one improving reduces the concerns of the others. In 2012 a Tesla Model S had a range of 230ish miles with the same size battery pack, today it has a range of 405 miles. That vehicle costs less today than it did in 2012. That vehicle took an hour to go from 0-80% charge at its fastest charging rate, now it's around 30 minutes.

EVs aren't for everyone, but they're improving at a rate far faster than their combustion counterparts and the proportion of people they won't work for is shrinking over time.

hph6203 said:

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Endurance races were designed to demonstrate durability for combustion vehicles. The causes of wear and failure of combustion vehicles is not the same as the causes of wear and failure of electric vehicles. Heat is the primary concern for combustion vehicles, and running an engine hot for 24 hours straight demonstrates how well a manufacturer understands dealing with the causes and consequences of that problem.

That is not remotely the primary concern for electric vehicles. An electric drivetrain is going to outlast every fuel burning engine, and it's going to do it without maintenance.

The primary durability concern for an electric vehicle is their battery management, which is simply not demonstrable in a 24 hour race. You're talking about thousands of charge/discharge cycles and done in an environment dramatically different than trying to rapidly refuel in a single day. Racing is fun, it is not a real world analogue for daily drivers.

That said the durability of an electric vehicle as a whole is extremely low on the real concerns surrounding electric vehicles. An electric drivetrain is going to last 500,000 miles or more (Tesla claims theirs is engineered to last in excess of a million miles), and the longevity of the battery is also not the primary concern. Tesla released a report last year that stated their high mileage vehicles, on an older battery chemistry, retains 90% of its original capacity at 200,000 miles.

The primary concerns around EVs are charge rate, range and price, which are problems that are improving, and any one improving reduces the concerns of the others. In 2012 a Tesla Model S had a range of 230ish miles with the same size battery pack, today it has a range of 405 miles. That vehicle costs less today than it did in 2012. That vehicle took an hour to go from 0-80% charge at its fastest charging rate, now it's around 30 minutes.

EVs aren't for everyone, but they're improving at a rate far faster than their combustion counterparts and the proportion of people they won't work for is shrinking over time.

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Well, duh.

You're taking new tech vs long established tech. With ICE, it's about small improvements now - the big problems were worked out over 100+ years...EVs are where ICE was much earlier its evolution so it has much more room for improvement.

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You're taking new tech vs long established tech. With ICE, it's about small improvements now - the big problems were worked out over 100+ years...EVs are where ICE was much earlier its evolution so it has much more room for improvement.

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Exactly. Wake me when they get there. And the electric grid can support them.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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You're taking new tech vs long established tech. With ICE, it's about small improvements now - the big problems were worked out over 100+ years...EVs are where ICE was much earlier its evolution so it has much more room for improvement.

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Exactly. Wake me when they get there. And the electric grid can support them.

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And the batteries can hold longer charges with shorter recharge times. And the rare earth materials to make the batteries don't require razing the earth to obtain them. And batteries are more available. And cheaper.

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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You're taking new tech vs long established tech. With ICE, it's about small improvements now - the big problems were worked out over 100+ years...EVs are where ICE was much earlier its evolution so it has much more room for improvement.

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Exactly. Wake me when they get there. And the electric grid can support them.

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This is the biggest issue IMHO...

Especially with the enviros and their anti-fossil fuel views. It will make it hard to build out the necessary grid power...

Quote:

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This is the biggest issue IMHO...

Especially with the enviros and their anti-fossil fuel views. It will make it hard to build out the necessary grid power...

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It is not just one thing that inventers can improve upon with engine design, or aerodynamics, for instance in making the comparison to the evolution of ICE vehicles, although the interstate highway system helped a lot in that respect. The government assisted there.

Here, the goverment is not pro-electrical grid expansion with supporting infrastructure. That's a very powerful headwind against EVs in general.

Ag with kids said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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You're taking new tech vs long established tech. With ICE, it's about small improvements now - the big problems were worked out over 100+ years...EVs are where ICE was much earlier its evolution so it has much more room for improvement.

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Exactly. Wake me when they get there. And the electric grid can support them.

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This is the biggest issue IMHO...

Especially with the enviros and their anti-fossil fuel views. It will make it hard to build out the necessary grid power...

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EVs will strengthen the electric grid when everyone has an 80kWh grid buffer in their driveway or people plugged in and charging can sign up for demand response programs.

The average American drives 39 miles a day, at 300Wh a mile (worse efficiency than my car) they only need 8 hours of charging per day at 120V 12A, otherwise known as a regular wall plug.

Manhattan said:

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Ag with kids said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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You're taking new tech vs long established tech. With ICE, it's about small improvements now - the big problems were worked out over 100+ years...EVs are where ICE was much earlier its evolution so it has much more room for improvement.

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Exactly. Wake me when they get there. And the electric grid can support them.

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This is the biggest issue IMHO...

Especially with the enviros and their anti-fossil fuel views. It will make it hard to build out the necessary grid power...

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EVs will strengthen the electric grid when everyone has an 80kWh grid buffer in their driveway or people plugged in and charging can sign up for demand response programs.

The average American drives 39 miles a day, at 300Wh a mile (worse efficiency than my car) they only need 8 hours of charging per day at 120V 12A, otherwise known as a regular wall plug.

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And back to the V2G bull**** we go.

Tesla is already doing it with Powerwall, there is no technological difference doing it with a car.