Teslag said:

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Ag with kids said:

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hph6203 said:

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Poor people can't buy new EVs, they can't buy new hybrids, they can't buy new diesel, they can't buy new gas. Poor people do not and will never buy new cars. They can't afford used EVs, because there isn't a robust enough market for them, because the EVs even remotely worth owning are almost all less than 5 years old, and the vast majority of them are not even through their 3-year lease terms. There is very little used EV inventory and what is there is being gobbled up by individuals that want a new EV, but don't want to wait.

EVs, up until recently, have all been built to be higher trim models with additional features, which drive up the price of the car in an effort to boost margins so that companies can recoup their investment into new production facilities that are markedly different in manufacturing processes than their gas counterparts. They're investing billions in new manufacturing plants, they have to get their higher-margin vehicles out first in order to offset those costs. Eventually, companies will start making the low-trim Toyota Corollas, Rangers and XLTs etc., but it won't be the first models they make. You are not making a like-for-like comparison when you compare a Tesla to something like a low-trim Camry.

Know how you know an EV is cheaper to own/operate than a comparable combustion vehicle? Hertz recently acknowledged that fact after building out their fleet of Tesla rentals, stating that the operating and maintenance costs are 50-60% lower than their combustion counterparts, and by virtue of those cost savings they actually reported higher earnings.


Again, in markets that have lower average incomes EVs are selling for lower average prices. In China, BYD is selling a boatload of their Seal model that starts at $33,000 and has a 340 mile range. EVs are not expensive because the base technology is expensive, they're expensive because companies are trying to build as much profitability into them as they can because they cannot produce them at mass scales like they can with combustion vehicles currently. There is not enough battery production presently to meet EV demand, so they have to triage their production to the higher margin models.


If Tesla were selling their base Model 3 at industry average margins they'd be selling it for ~$35,000.

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Another thing they'll have to do is add some other types of vehicles...

Of the top 25 selling vehicles in the US, only 5 are cars. The others are trucks, SUVs, and crossovers. Because that's what the public in general wants...

And not that godawful truck thing that Tesla put out...

But, again...EVs are cool. I don't want one but whatever. I don't like cars. Especially smaller cars.

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The Y is a 7 seat crossover. The X is even bigger.

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Ah...it looks like a midsized car...so it's a small crossover. None of the top 25 were small crossovers...

I'm sure they'll make something in that market though...

fka ftc said:

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Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

More liberal lies.

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This is pure ignorance. What's weird is you call things "Liberal Lies" as if everything we're discussing in here is purely conceptual, and we're all just trading propaganda and talking points. As if several of us don't factually own EVs and have the ability to do some math with our on experiences and our own finances.

While the initial purchase prices are still relatively high for many EVs, the operating costs are significantly lower than ICE vehicles.

My Tesla Model 3 is significantly cheaper to operate than the 2004 F-150 it replaced. My fuel cost went from $300/mo for gas to less than $40/mo for electricity. I actually tracked this monthly through my first 12 months of EV ownership, and compared to the previous 12 months with the F-150, with the same daily commute and driving habits, and my home electricity bill increased YoY by around $39/mo. (I used a Supercharger 2-3 total times that year).

My insurance actually remained about the same. My only maintenance cost was windshield wiper fluid. No oil changes. No brake work.

So, while I did take on a car payment for the first time in years, a huge chunk of it was offset by the $260 reduction in fuel costs per month. Throw in the offset of no oil changes, or really any other maintenance, and you have a pretty significant savings.

Stop acting like we can't refute your "more liberal lies" claims with real world data and tangible experience.

If you don't believe me... here's Car & Driver showing that the F-150 Lightening has a lower cost of ownership than the F-150 ICE.

https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/

Here's a snippet from said article:

Yeah it will be a good amount of time but once you have less ICE, there will be less margin and 3rd party parts maker. Price will go up for parts and will drive consumers to get rid of their ICE to jump on electric

Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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Ag with kids said:

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hph6203 said:

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Poor people can't buy new EVs, they can't buy new hybrids, they can't buy new diesel, they can't buy new gas. Poor people do not and will never buy new cars. They can't afford used EVs, because there isn't a robust enough market for them, because the EVs even remotely worth owning are almost all less than 5 years old, and the vast majority of them are not even through their 3-year lease terms. There is very little used EV inventory and what is there is being gobbled up by individuals that want a new EV, but don't want to wait.

EVs, up until recently, have all been built to be higher trim models with additional features, which drive up the price of the car in an effort to boost margins so that companies can recoup their investment into new production facilities that are markedly different in manufacturing processes than their gas counterparts. They're investing billions in new manufacturing plants, they have to get their higher-margin vehicles out first in order to offset those costs. Eventually, companies will start making the low-trim Toyota Corollas, Rangers and XLTs etc., but it won't be the first models they make. You are not making a like-for-like comparison when you compare a Tesla to something like a low-trim Camry.

Know how you know an EV is cheaper to own/operate than a comparable combustion vehicle? Hertz recently acknowledged that fact after building out their fleet of Tesla rentals, stating that the operating and maintenance costs are 50-60% lower than their combustion counterparts, and by virtue of those cost savings they actually reported higher earnings.


Again, in markets that have lower average incomes EVs are selling for lower average prices. In China, BYD is selling a boatload of their Seal model that starts at $33,000 and has a 340 mile range. EVs are not expensive because the base technology is expensive, they're expensive because companies are trying to build as much profitability into them as they can because they cannot produce them at mass scales like they can with combustion vehicles currently. There is not enough battery production presently to meet EV demand, so they have to triage their production to the higher margin models.


If Tesla were selling their base Model 3 at industry average margins they'd be selling it for ~$35,000.

---

Another thing they'll have to do is add some other types of vehicles...

Of the top 25 selling vehicles in the US, only 5 are cars. The others are trucks, SUVs, and crossovers. Because that's what the public in general wants...

And not that godawful truck thing that Tesla put out...

But, again...EVs are cool. I don't want one but whatever. I don't like cars. Especially smaller cars.

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The Y is a 7 seat crossover. The X is even bigger.

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Ah...it looks like a midsized car...so it's a small crossover. None of the top 25 were small crossovers...

I'm sure they'll make something in that market though...

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https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g39628015/best-selling-cars-2022/

The highest rated crossover on your list is the Toyota Rav4 which seats 5 and has 98.9 cubic feet of passenger volume. The second highest rated crossover was the Honda CRV which seats 5 with 105.9 cubic feet of passenger volume. The Tesla Model Y seats 7 and has 106 cubic feet of passenger volume.

Length

Honday CRV 184"
Rav4 182"
Model Y 187"


You were flat ass wrong.

Medaggie said:

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I actually agree with some stuff you say and I respect difference of opinion. Now putting our disagreement aside, you will be hard pressed to get used parts at reasonable price once you stop seeing ICE cars sold.

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If EV's wind up being the majority of vehicles on the road, gas stations will start disappearing and what was once the greatest advantage of ICE passenger vehicles will become a major disadvantage.

Lets not bring facts into this discussion. Most will say the X5 is a moderate sized SUV.

Most people who makes generalized statements have never driven a Tsla. The MY looks small on the outside compared to the X5, but when you are inside it looks just as big. Compare the inside space and the MY is bigger in almost all aspects including cargo space. Taking out a big engine makes a big difference.

Yep. When I first test drove the Y I was immediately struck by the legroom and space of the cabin. It's deceptively big inside and is much more comfortable and less confining than even my Chevy Silverado.

GAC06 said:

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Medaggie said:

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I actually agree with some stuff you say and I respect difference of opinion. Now putting our disagreement aside, you will be hard pressed to get used parts at reasonable price once you stop seeing ICE cars sold.

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If EV's wind up being the majority of vehicles on the road, gas stations will start disappearing and what was once the greatest advantage of ICE passenger vehicles will become a major disadvantage.

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Buccees are starting to put Tsla charges at their stores. But you are correct, gas stations will start to disappear or will convert to Tsla/EV chargers. Gas station makes most of their money of high priced items. They would be smart to have EV chargers too.

Humans are a creature of habit and will not change.

People loved their car buttons, the more the better and one reason to hate on Tsla. But after 2 yrs with my MY, I would never want buttons again. I can do everything I need with Voice control without looking for buttons all over the place. Similar to blackberry to iphones when everyone hated losing the physical buttons.

Drive a tsla and the convenience will change many people's mind. I now hate to pour gas, get brakes done, regular maintenance, having a hot garage, oil change.

I remember when iphones came and Crackberry friends said they would never change b/c they liked their buttons. Well, the market forced them to give up their blackberries and now have no issues with smartphones.

Hell I even hate braking now. Once you get used to one pedal driving it's hard to go back.

Teslag said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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Ag with kids said:

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hph6203 said:

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Poor people can't buy new EVs, they can't buy new hybrids, they can't buy new diesel, they can't buy new gas. Poor people do not and will never buy new cars. They can't afford used EVs, because there isn't a robust enough market for them, because the EVs even remotely worth owning are almost all less than 5 years old, and the vast majority of them are not even through their 3-year lease terms. There is very little used EV inventory and what is there is being gobbled up by individuals that want a new EV, but don't want to wait.

EVs, up until recently, have all been built to be higher trim models with additional features, which drive up the price of the car in an effort to boost margins so that companies can recoup their investment into new production facilities that are markedly different in manufacturing processes than their gas counterparts. They're investing billions in new manufacturing plants, they have to get their higher-margin vehicles out first in order to offset those costs. Eventually, companies will start making the low-trim Toyota Corollas, Rangers and XLTs etc., but it won't be the first models they make. You are not making a like-for-like comparison when you compare a Tesla to something like a low-trim Camry.

Know how you know an EV is cheaper to own/operate than a comparable combustion vehicle? Hertz recently acknowledged that fact after building out their fleet of Tesla rentals, stating that the operating and maintenance costs are 50-60% lower than their combustion counterparts, and by virtue of those cost savings they actually reported higher earnings.


Again, in markets that have lower average incomes EVs are selling for lower average prices. In China, BYD is selling a boatload of their Seal model that starts at $33,000 and has a 340 mile range. EVs are not expensive because the base technology is expensive, they're expensive because companies are trying to build as much profitability into them as they can because they cannot produce them at mass scales like they can with combustion vehicles currently. There is not enough battery production presently to meet EV demand, so they have to triage their production to the higher margin models.


If Tesla were selling their base Model 3 at industry average margins they'd be selling it for ~$35,000.

---

Another thing they'll have to do is add some other types of vehicles...

Of the top 25 selling vehicles in the US, only 5 are cars. The others are trucks, SUVs, and crossovers. Because that's what the public in general wants...

And not that godawful truck thing that Tesla put out...

But, again...EVs are cool. I don't want one but whatever. I don't like cars. Especially smaller cars.

---

The Y is a 7 seat crossover. The X is even bigger.

---

Ah...it looks like a midsized car...so it's a small crossover. None of the top 25 were small crossovers...

I'm sure they'll make something in that market though...

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https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g39628015/best-selling-cars-2022/

The highest rated crossover on your list is the Toyota Rav4 which seats 5 and has 98.9 cubic feet of passenger volume. The second highest rated crossover was the Honda CRV which seats 5 with 105.9 cubic feet of passenger volume. The Tesla Model Y seats 7 and has 106 cubic feet of passenger volume.

Length

Honday CRV 184"
Rav4 182"
Model Y 187"


You were flat ass wrong.

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Ok. Still looks like a car. That's good they have them, then, though. Bit more expensive than the Rav 4 or CRV however.

It's a luxury vehicle with performance that smokes a RAV4 or CRV. It's not really competing with them

aggievaulter07 said:

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fka ftc said:

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Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

More liberal lies.

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This is pure ignorance. What's weird is you call things "Liberal Lies" as if everything we're discussing in here is purely conceptual, and we're all just trading propaganda and talking points. As if several of us don't factually own EVs and have the ability to do some math with our on experiences and our own finances.

While the initial purchase prices are still relatively high for many EVs, the operating costs are significantly lower than ICE vehicles.

My Tesla Model 3 is significantly cheaper to operate than the 2004 F-150 it replaced. My fuel cost went from $300/mo for gas to less than $40/mo for electricity. I actually tracked this monthly through my first 12 months of EV ownership, and compared to the previous 12 months with the F-150, with the same daily commute and driving habits, and my home electricity bill increased YoY by around $39/mo. (I used a Supercharger 2-3 total times that year).

My insurance actually remained about the same. My only maintenance cost was windshield wiper fluid. No oil changes. No brake work.

So, while I did take on a car payment for the first time in years, a huge chunk of it was offset by the $260 reduction in fuel costs per month. Throw in the offset of no oil changes, or really any other maintenance, and you have a pretty significant savings.

Stop acting like we can't refute your "more liberal lies" claims with real world data and tangible experience.

If you don't believe me... here's Car & Driver showing that the F-150 Lightening has a lower cost of ownership than the F-150 ICE.

https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/

Here's a snippet from said article:

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Still cheaper to own ICE.

EVs are just more liberal leftist elitism focused on establishing more white supremacy and oppressing people of color.

ICE vehicles were equitable in both availability and affordability. Now you have to be a left elitist to afford one and people of color will be relegated to what ever transportation the white liberal elitist a provides for them.

It's disgusting others cannot see this.

Did you happen to see what the 9th best selling vehicle was in 2022? Even without tax credits?

Quote:

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EVs are just more liberal leftist elitism focused on establishing more white supremacy and oppressing people of color.

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None of us give a **** about this. They are fast as hell, fun to drive, with a great driving experience.

Go be woke somewhere else.

Teslag said:

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Did you happen to see what the 9th best selling vehicle was in 2022? Even without tax credits?

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Yep. One of the top 25 was an EV. And only 24 were ICE vehicles.

Of course, 4 of the top 6 were full sized ICE trucks, so there's that going for them...

I'm glad you like your Tesla. Even worship the concept of EVs based on this thread...I think they're fine.

I just know there are a lot more issues that y'all want to acknowledge...EVs will grow. But, I seriously doubt they fully replace ICE vehicles. Not unless a lot of those issues are addressed. And it's much more than just cost, which i'm sure will drop for the non micro cars.

But, even then, there will still be a market for ICE vehicles...and gas...and auto parts...even if it's just the used car market. It would be funny when there's **** tons of 2020 vehicles driving around like they have those 50s vehicles in Cuba....while Medaggie thinks we're going to disappear 290 million ICE cars sometime in the near future, I have a healthy skepticism about that...

BTW, are there any manual transmission EVs on the market?

What sense would that make? Aren't you an engineer?

fka ftc said:

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aggievaulter07 said:

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fka ftc said:

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Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

More liberal lies.

---

This is pure ignorance. What's weird is you call things "Liberal Lies" as if everything we're discussing in here is purely conceptual, and we're all just trading propaganda and talking points. As if several of us don't factually own EVs and have the ability to do some math with our on experiences and our own finances.

While the initial purchase prices are still relatively high for many EVs, the operating costs are significantly lower than ICE vehicles.

My Tesla Model 3 is significantly cheaper to operate than the 2004 F-150 it replaced. My fuel cost went from $300/mo for gas to less than $40/mo for electricity. I actually tracked this monthly through my first 12 months of EV ownership, and compared to the previous 12 months with the F-150, with the same daily commute and driving habits, and my home electricity bill increased YoY by around $39/mo. (I used a Supercharger 2-3 total times that year).

My insurance actually remained about the same. My only maintenance cost was windshield wiper fluid. No oil changes. No brake work.

So, while I did take on a car payment for the first time in years, a huge chunk of it was offset by the $260 reduction in fuel costs per month. Throw in the offset of no oil changes, or really any other maintenance, and you have a pretty significant savings.

Stop acting like we can't refute your "more liberal lies" claims with real world data and tangible experience.

If you don't believe me... here's Car & Driver showing that the F-150 Lightening has a lower cost of ownership than the F-150 ICE.

https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/a32494027/ev-vs-gas-cheaper-to-own/

Here's a snippet from said article:

---

Still cheaper to own ICE.

EVs are just more liberal leftist elitism focused on establishing more white supremacy and oppressing people of color.

ICE vehicles were equitable in both availability and affordability. Now you have to be a left elitist to afford one and people of color will be relegated to what ever transportation the white liberal elitist a provides for them.

It's disgusting others cannot see this.

---

In true FKA fashion, ignores data presented, and presents no actual data of his own. Just spouts weird partisan rhetoric and opinion.

Update:

2012 Model S
230 mile range
75 kw charging
0-60 4.3 seconds
$95,000

2023 Model S
405 mile range
250 kw charging
0-60 3.1 seconds
$89,990


ICE cars are going to continue to go up in price like they have for the last century. EVs are going to stagnate or reduce in price like they have for the last decade. If the Model S increased at the same rate as the rest of the car market you'd expect it to cost at least $146,000.

hph6203 said:

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Update:

2012 Model S
230 mile range
75 kw charging
0-60 4.3 seconds
$95,000

2023 Model S
405 mile range
250 kw charging
0-60 3.1 seconds
$89,990


ICE cars are going to continue to go up in price like they have for the last century. EVs are going to stagnate or reduce in price like they have for the last decade. If the Model S increased at the same rate as the rest of the car market you'd expect it to cost at least $146,000.

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But, if demand goes down as much as you say it will, then the price will start to fall or stabilize...you know...supply and demand?

And of COURSE EVs will reduce in price. They're like the first HDTVs to come out. They were a luxury for folks with **** tons of money...BUT...HDTVs had HUGE advantages over CRTs...

EVs are now starting to stabilize and lower their price as more are sold. EVs are good, but the benefits aren't THAT huge.

Oh...and for the price of that Model S, I can get a Challenger Hellcat that does 3.4 sec in the 0-60. And listening to the supercharged 6.2L during that 3.4 sec will be much more satisfying...(BTW, AWK GF...if you're listening...I want a Challenger Hellcat).

Quote:

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Yep. One of the top 25 was an EV. And only 24 were ICE vehicles.

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Wrong again. Two teslas, the 3 and Y, comprising 2 of their 4 vehicles were in the top 25. Despite being expensive. And despite no tax credits available. And this is with the cars having months of supply back up for the year.

Quote:

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Oh...and for the price of that Model S, I can get a Challenger Hellcat that does 3.4 sec in the 0-60. And listening to the supercharged 6.2L during that 3.4 sec will be much more satisfying...(BTW, AWK GF...if you're listening...I want a Challenger Hellcat).

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For $47,000 you can get a Model 3 performance that will do 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. Or for $52,000 you can get a Model Y performance that will do 0-60 in 3.5 seconds.

Think about that. That big 6.2 V8 barely edging a "tiny" family crossover. Sad.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Yep. One of the top 25 was an EV. And only 24 were ICE vehicles.

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Wrong again. Two teslas, the 3 and Y, comprising 2 of their 4 vehicles were in the top 25. Despite being expensive. And despite no tax credits available. And this is with the cars having months of supply back up for the year.

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OOOOH!!!

Sorry.

Only 23 were ICE vehicles.

And the 4 trucks all sold more than them. In fact, the F-150, Chevy Silverado, and Dodge Ram EACH sold more than both combined.

I get it!!!! You LOVE your Tesla!!! You're a great evangelist! You BELIEVE!

But...people still like ICE more. Notice that ZERO of those cheap EVs that GAC06 says the poor will buy were in the top 25...I don't know why. It's going to save them so much money. Couldn't be that they could only afford an auction car from the tote the note lot, because that's pretty expensive when they could save thousands on fuel/maintenance over the next 5 years.

I'm ****ing tired of telling y'all I'm not against EVs. I'm not.

I'm just not so enamored that I think they're the end all be all and ICE is going away and EVs will rule the world in my lifetime.

And I'm in a business where I expect that AAM (think "uber" taxis) to be around before that...But, I don't expect it to rule the world.

I've spent to much time in the engineering world for that.

Quote:

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And I'm in a business where I expect that AAM (think "uber" taxis) to be around before that...But, I don't expect it to rule the world.

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Will they have manual transmissions?

Margins on ICE vehicles are not good enough to allow them to drop prices dramatically. Margins on a Tesla are in the 25-30% range, average margin on an ICE vehicle is in the 5-10% range. As Tesla increases production they're going to be the ones dropping prices, not combustion manufacturers. You may see a standard range Model 3 drop to 35,000 and a compact variant sell for 25,000 before incentives in the not too distant future.

The commodity prices for battery materials are falling dramatically from their highs. Lithium is down 40% in the last 5 months, Nickel is down, Manganese and Cobalt are at their pre-pandemic levels.

Tesla claims they can reduce their cost of production by 50% due to manufacturing efficiencies, technological advancements and material cost reductions by removing rare earth minerals from their construction.


The point of me posting that is not to say "EVs are superior products" it's to counter the narrative that they are too expensive and always will be. They are expensive, but in relative terms they are dropping in price when compared to combustion vehicles and they're going to continue to drop in price relative to combustion vehicles, because like HDTVs they're a novel technology and companies are going to find more efficient ways to build and utilize the battery storage. Things like Tesla's octovalve that more efficiently uses heat generated by the vehicle to manage temperatures, which makes the car more efficient and those efficiencies open up the possibility of using less energy dense chemistries like LFP batteries rather than NMC batteries that are more expensive.

You'll also see new models start to drop the 15" touch screen displays, leather seats, heated seats, power seats, premium sound systems etc to further open the market to lower cost vehicles. EVs are not for middle class right now, but they will be in 10 years. For now battery production has to ramp in order for the manufacturers to target all price segments. It's a long process to supplant a technology that's been around for over a hundred years and is typically the second largest expense a person has.


Point being that the relative price reduction hasn't stopped and soon sticker prices will be in parity and soon thereafter cheaper than their combustion counterparts and the only arguments that remain for combustion over EV will be the thrill of driving a powerful combustion engine and the fact that on your annual to semi-annual road trip you might have to stop for an additional 20 minutes that you otherwise wouldn't have to stop for. Average American road trip lengths are shorter than the base model EV ranges of around 250 miles.


I'm not anti-combustion, I'm just a fan of electric vehicles due to technological possibilities they open up, cost of transportation reductions they will create, and the convenience they provide in 95% of driving situations.



I'm not trying to convince you to like EVs or change your opinion on buying one for yourself, just illustrating that you are wildly misunderstanding the economics and their future pricing. You keep saying they're expensive, that is not a perpetual reality. They will be cheaper than ICE. Not in total cost of ownership terms but on purchase price

I am conservative, always voted R, have 95% R values. I buy an EV b/c it has superior performance, tech, more convenient for me, saves me time/money in the long run.

It has zero to do with any green agenda. I don't know of any who bought a tsla thinking they were saving the world.

If you flipped BMW had the EV advantages, I would still be in a BMW but although the build/look is superior, it is one of the most troubled car maker I have ever owned.

GAC06 said:

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Quote:

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And I'm in a business where I expect that AAM (think "uber" taxis) to be around before that...But, I don't expect it to rule the world.

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Will they have manual transmissions?

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I'm in a business where "AAM" means Air to Air Missile. Those are around today and they Do Rule the world!!

hph6203 said:

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Margins on ICE vehicles are not good enough to allow them to drop prices dramatically. Margins on a Tesla are in the 25-30% range, average margin on an ICE vehicle is in the 5-10% range. As Tesla increases production they're going to be the ones dropping prices, not combustion manufacturers. You may see a standard range Model 3 drop to 35,000 and a compact variant sell for 25,000 before incentives in the not too distant future.


Why are there incentives if everyone wants to move to EVs? Is this like drug dealers giving free samples to get people addicted? Then, hitting them with the real price? Because I'm not sucking a dick to buy a vehicle.


The commodity prices for battery materials are falling dramatically from their highs. Lithium is down 40% in the last 5 months, Nickel is down, Manganese and Cobalt are at their pre-pandemic levels.

**** them slaves, though, right. Let them dig your EV goodies…Oh…and all of those battery materials are being mined by EVs right? Because, mining them with ICE vehicles would be counter productive…

Tesla claims they can reduce their cost of production by 50% due to manufacturing efficiencies, technological advancements and material cost reductions by removing rare earth minerals from their construction.

I claim I can **** Katy Perry this weekend!!! We know it's going to happen because I CLAIMED IT!


The point of me posting that is not to say "EVs are superior products" it's to counter the narrative that they are too expensive and always will be.

I've never said they always will be. In fact, I said the price will drop.

They are expensive, but in relative terms they are dropping in price when compared to combustion vehicles and they're going to continue to drop in price relative to combustion vehicles, because like HDTVs they're a novel technology and companies are going to find more efficient ways to build and utilize the battery storage.

Again, if ICE vehicles go away like you say, then the demand will fall and the price will drop precipitously…

Things like Tesla's octovalve that more efficiently uses heat generated by the vehicle to manage temperatures, which makes the car more efficient and those efficiencies open up the possibility of using less energy dense chemistries like LFP batteries rather than NMC batteries that are more expensive.


Cool tech. I like it.


You'll also see new models start to drop the 15" touch screen displays, leather seats, heated seats, power seats, premium sound systems etc to further open the market to lower cost vehicles. EVs are not for middle class right now, but they will be in 10 years. For now battery production has to ramp in order for the manufacturers to target all price segments. It's a long process to supplant a technology that's been around for over a hundred years and is typically the second largest expense a person has.

What about the most important part about EVs. Where do we get all the power production to charge all of them? This has nothing to do with Superchargers or adding home chargers or more EV charging stations in more locations. This has to do with what is going to supply those with the power needed to charge all the EVs. And THAT is NOT an issue that Tesla/Ford/Chevy/etc are going to be able to solve. That is on the government. And they're SUPER fast at doing things.


Point being that the relative price reduction hasn't stopped and soon sticker prices will be in parity and soon thereafter cheaper than their combustion counterparts and the only arguments that remain for combustion over EV will be the thrill of driving a powerful combustion engine and the fact that on your annual to semi-annual road trip you might have to stop for an additional 20 minutes that you otherwise wouldn't have to stop for. Average American road trip lengths are shorter than the base model EV ranges of around 250 miles.


The fallacy of extrapolation…

I'm not anti-combustion, I'm just a fan of electric vehicles due to technological possibilities they open up, cost of transportation reductions they will create, and the convenience they provide in 95% of driving situations.

I'm glad you like EVs. I just think you're so into them that you are unwilling to look at any roadblocks that might cause problems because of them. Or any roadblocks that come with the operation of them.

I'm not trying to convince you to like EVs or change your opinion on buying one for yourself, just illustrating that you are wildly misunderstanding the economics and their future pricing. You keep saying they're expensive, that is not a perpetual reality.

JESUS ****ING CHRIST! I SAID I LIKE EVs!!!!

I'm just not so blinded that any roadblock mentioned is poo pooed away because EVs are AWESOME!

They will be cheaper than ICE.

Not when the demand drops like you said…

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And…until they make a stick shift EV…meh…not interested. I only have a truck that's an auto because that's all they make. But, it's my haul **** around vehicle so whatever. Daily driver is and has been a stick for almost all of my driving life. Much happier driving that way.

You want a stick shift in a vehicle that has no transmission?

He's an engineer

Teslag said:

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You want a stick shift in a vehicle that has no transmission?

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Um...I want a stick shift.

If the vehicle has no transmission, then why would I want it? Duh?

Because it's faster than a hellcat?

Tsla Plaid is the fastest 1/4 mile production car beating Million dollar ferrari/Porsche/Mclaren. Im sure this really burns these companies who lays claim to be the fastest so cost doesn't matter. But now they can't even say that when a car 1/10th the price will smoke them in 0-60, 1/4 miles, or anything in a windy track.

Now many of these high performance cars like Lamborghini and Porsche know they can't overtake the plaid unless they go electric. I am sure the new EV Lamb will overtake the current plaid but cost 20x the price only to be overtaken by newer versions of the Plaid Plus.

Lamborghini has stated they will only be going electric going forward and will not produce a new ICE model. They have seen the light even in the high end ultra luxury ICE segment.

Tsla has disrupted every segment of the car market except the budget entry level which will happen in the next 2-3 yrs.