techno-ag said:

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Another recall!

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/03/04/business/tesla-recall-model-y-bolts/index.html

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Like all Tesla recalls, they are not recalls but just updates. Owners will be able to download tighter bolts.

GAC06 said:

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Ag with kids said:

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GAC06 said:

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People could buy an EV new for 20k and make the trip he described, and save money in gas. His X5 is completely irrelevant.

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The $20K EVs are the size of Mini Coopers. But, I guess if that's what you like. I don't.

Hey...if people want to buy them, more power to them (well, as long as they don't stress the grid and take power from ME)...

But, most normal sized EVs are pretty expensive compared to like sized ICE vehicles. It's whatever though. I'm not against them. I'm just not so enamored by them that I'm willing to ignore all the different challenges that they bring.

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You made a crappy argument that cost savings from not buying gas didn't count because Teslas are too expensive for poor people. I pointed out that there are affordable EV's that could make the same trip he described and still offer the savings. You flailed around a while arguing about the costs of those vehicles until facts prevailed again. Now your argument is that economy cars are small? Yeah dude, it's the cheapest EV for sale, it's not going to be a Mercedes S class.

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So, they can buy a nice mid sized car or a tiny car for the same price. I guess if that's what they want. But, my argument was that if the EV is $50K, the cost savings from fuel are meaningless to poor people. They can't afford that upfront cost. They're not thinking about "hey, over 5 years I'll save $4K in fuel costs"...

You need to actually meet some people that don't have a lot of money like you do...

And if people want to save money on gas there are affordable EV's that provide that savings while still being able to make most trips without inconvenience.

People who can afford a $50,000 car also enjoy saving money, which is why your argument was silly from the very beginning.

The argument that 99% of the people do not want to save money if they could is silly. Sure a multi millionaire won't care but 99% of the population even if they can afford a 100K car would be happy to save money if they could with things being equal. I save about 15K for 70K miles in my tesla vs my previous X5 and would do it again even if everything including tech/drive/maintenance was equal. I have spent about 60 minutes at supercharges in my 70K miles driving and if I spent 5 min/gas fill up, that equates to 280 gas station visits & 24 hrs.

But I guess if you want to spend more time at gas stations in the Texas heat and spend 15K just to hate on EVs then go ahead.

Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

More liberal lies.

And poor people do not look for ways to "save" money. Instead they look for the cheapest option they can afford.

Folks on here want to pat their housekeeper on the back and congratulate them on their new EV and reassure them that one day they can afford their diabetes medicine again when their EV "savings" finally materialize.

Some people are just as bad about economics as they are in understanding modern day airliners.

fka ftc said:

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Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

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charging at home is generally cheaper than paying for fuel is the idea

I I understand the things they try and claim, but its just misleading concepts and theories that dumb people like to lap up.

The mental deficiency it takes to believe EVs save money and are a great car for poor people to own is simply… well, its simply mentally deficient.

Old McDonald said:

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fka ftc said:

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Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

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charging at home is generally cheaper than paying for fuel is the idea

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Our Y Performance is far cheaper to own and operate than comparable vehicles we considered. That's not really up for debate.

GAC06 said:

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And if people want to save money on gas there are affordable EV's that provide that savings while still being able to make most trips without inconvenience.

People who can afford a $50,000 car also enjoy saving money, which is why your argument was silly from the very beginning.

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Well, many of those live in apartments without chargers so there's a little inconvenience since there's a gas pump on every corner and that's not the case with chargers. Hell, Corpus only has about 8 for the whole city.

Like I said, I'm not against EVs...I just know there are issues with the concept that some of y'all like to just handwave away instead of acknowledging them. Like you've just done...

And thanks for your ad hominem. We're all pretty used to your condescending attitude, though...

Owning an EV without a home charger seems like a huge ass whip.

Teslag said:

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Old McDonald said:

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fka ftc said:

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Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

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charging at home is generally cheaper than paying for fuel is the idea

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Our Y Performance is far cheaper to own and operate than comparable vehicles we considered. That's not really up for debate.

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I am pretty sure any conclusion you reach in life and post on this board is up for debate. What is not up for debate is your terrible track record with certain positions you take on issues.

VitruvianAg said:

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That recall is limited to the cars owned by liberals!

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Took me a while to get it.

fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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Old McDonald said:

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fka ftc said:

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Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

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charging at home is generally cheaper than paying for fuel is the idea

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Our Y Performance is far cheaper to own and operate than comparable vehicles we considered. That's not really up for debate.

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I am pretty sure any conclusion you reach in life and post on this board is up for debate. What is not up for debate is your terrible track record with certain positions you take on issues.

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Solid contribution with hard hitting analysis.

Saying your argument is silly isn't an ad hominem. Everyone likes saving money.

You guys are thinking about this from the perspective of, "I need a vehicle that does this performance at this price, and will hold resale value."

That's not the majority of Tesla owners (although the demand for them has certainly kept resale value high). They aren't converting the ford/Chevy/GMC people. They are converting the Audi/BMW/Jaguar crowd who want a status symbol. Tesla gives them that and other people make them feel good because they have one.

Teslag said:

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fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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Old McDonald said:

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fka ftc said:

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Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

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charging at home is generally cheaper than paying for fuel is the idea

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Our Y Performance is far cheaper to own and operate than comparable vehicles we considered. That's not really up for debate.

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I am pretty sure any conclusion you reach in life and post on this board is up for debate. What is not up for debate is your terrible track record with certain positions you take on issues.

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Solid contribution with hard hitting analysis.

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I think most will agree that it was.

EVs are a relic of the past, not the future. Smart people realize this.

fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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Old McDonald said:

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fka ftc said:

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Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

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charging at home is generally cheaper than paying for fuel is the idea

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Our Y Performance is far cheaper to own and operate than comparable vehicles we considered. That's not really up for debate.

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I am pretty sure any conclusion you reach in life and post on this board is up for debate. What is not up for debate is your terrible track record with certain positions you take on issues.

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Solid contribution with hard hitting analysis.

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I think most will agree that it was.

EVs are a relic of the past, not the future. Smart people realize this.

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"smart people"

I know I will not convince the harden Ice crowd and really don't care to. Actually don't care to convince anyone to change. If you are staunchly against it, I would say just drive one. Make up your mind.

I do not know of anyone who has a Tsla would go back to an all ICE family. Most will be replacing their Tsla with another and kids will be getting EVs. Yes they will be keeping an ICE at home for travel/hauling.

Hate on Tsla and EVs but don't use saving money as a reason after purchase. EVs are getting close and many times are cheaper to buy than an ICE counterpart. Once tsla or other EV makers bring prices to below 30K and with the 7500 tax incentive, any new car buyers will have little economic reasons to buy an ICE.

Bottom line and everyone may disagree/hate it, developed countries around the world is pushing EVs. Norway is essentially all EVs now and most of Europe is going this way.

Not going to debate the politics, economics, grid issues b/c they are real. But the EV train is going full steam and nothing is going to stop it. Even Toyota, a staunch anti EV company, has seen the writing on the wall.

Soon, even if you want an ICE, makers may not have any to sell as they are going full EV right now.

Even EV haters will have little options but go EV while kicking/screaming.

Medaggie said:

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Hate on Tsla and Ice but don't use saving money as a reason. EVs are getting close and many times are cheaper to buy than an ICE counterpart. Once tsla or other EV makers bring prices to below 30K and with the 7500 tax incentive, any new car buyers will have little economic reasons to buy an ICE.

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While that part absolutely infuriates me, doesn't it end once any particular model EV is made in any sort of significant volume?

Were all those people informed that EV's are relics of the past despite the surging demand and sales?

torrid said:

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Medaggie said:

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Hate on Tsla and Ice but don't use saving money as a reason. EVs are getting close and many times are cheaper to buy than an ICE counterpart. Once tsla or other EV makers bring prices to below 30K and with the 7500 tax incentive, any new car buyers will have little economic reasons to buy an ICE.

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While that part absolutely infuriates me, doesn't it end once any particular model EV is made in any sort of significant volume?

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It used to be the case, which is why Tesla had no tax incentive from 2019 to 2022. I think it's unlimited now.

I an conservative especially financially/economically. Government should never get involved in any business unless there is national interest. They should not get into EVs either but I guess they think their is national interest. People get stuck on Evs and incentives but they also stuck their nose in the ICE business when they bailed them out.

They also stick their nose in it by requiring Dealerships to sell cars.

Bottom line is the Biden stuck his nose in EVs to help GM/Ford/Stellantis stay alive b/c they were getting killed by Tesla. But what they did was given Tsla a bigger advantage by opening their cars to more people.

Medaggie said:

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I know I will not convince the harden Ice crowd and really don't care to. Actually don't care to convince anyone to change. If you are staunchly against it, I would say just drive one. Make up your mind.

I do not know of anyone who has a Tsla would go back to an all ICE family. Most will be replacing their Tsla with another and kids will be getting EVs. Yes they will be keeping an ICE at home for travel/hauling.

Hate on Tsla and EVs but don't use saving money as a reason after purchase. EVs are getting close and many times are cheaper to buy than an ICE counterpart. Once tsla or other EV makers bring prices to below 30K and with the 7500 tax incentive, any new car buyers will have little economic reasons to buy an ICE.

Bottom line and everyone may disagree/hate it, developed countries around the world is pushing EVs. Norway is essentially all EVs now and most of Europe is going this way.

Not going to debate the politics, economics, grid issues b/c they are real. But the EV train is going full steam and nothing is going to stop it. Even Toyota, a staunch anti EV company, has seen the writing on the wall.

Soon, even if you want an ICE, makers may not have any to sell as they are going full EV right now.

Even EV haters will have little options but go EV while kicking/screaming.

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Used car market is gonna be wild...

I actually agree with some stuff you say and I respect difference of opinion. Now putting our disagreement aside, you will be hard pressed to get used parts at reasonable price once you stop seeing ICE cars sold.

Poor people can't buy new EVs, they can't buy new hybrids, they can't buy new diesel, they can't buy new gas. Poor people do not and will never buy new cars. They can't afford used EVs, because there isn't a robust enough market for them, because the EVs even remotely worth owning are almost all less than 5 years old, and the vast majority of them are not even through their 3-year lease terms. There is very little used EV inventory and what is there is being gobbled up by individuals that want a new EV, but don't want to wait.

EVs, up until recently, have all been built to be higher trim models with additional features, which drive up the price of the car in an effort to boost margins so that companies can recoup their investment into new production facilities that are markedly different in manufacturing processes than their gas counterparts. They're investing billions in new manufacturing plants, they have to get their higher-margin vehicles out first in order to offset those costs. Eventually, companies will start making the low-trim Toyota Corollas, Rangers and XLTs etc., but it won't be the first models they make. You are not making a like-for-like comparison when you compare a Tesla to something like a low-trim Camry.

Know how you know an EV is cheaper to own/operate than a comparable combustion vehicle? Hertz recently acknowledged that fact after building out their fleet of Tesla rentals, stating that the operating and maintenance costs are 50-60% lower than their combustion counterparts, and by virtue of those cost savings they actually reported higher earnings.


Again, in markets that have lower average incomes EVs are selling for lower average prices. In China, BYD is selling a boatload of their Seal model that starts at $33,000 and has a 340 mile range. EVs are not expensive because the base technology is expensive, they're expensive because companies are trying to build as much profitability into them as they can because they cannot produce them at mass scales like they can with combustion vehicles currently. There is not enough battery production presently to meet EV demand, so they have to triage their production to the higher margin models.


If Tesla were selling their base Model 3 at industry average margins they'd be selling it for ~$35,000.

Medaggie said:

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I actually agree with some stuff you say and I respect difference of opinion. Now putting our disagreement aside, you will be hard pressed to get used parts at reasonable price once you stop seeing ICE cars sold.

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It will be a LONG time before you get all the used ICE cars off the road...the parts market will be there. Hell, my dad can still get parts for his '47 Willys Jeep...

Or do you think that somehow every single person is going to buy a new car in the near future (when they aren't)? That's approximately 290 million cars...

Accurate. ICE are going to be fairly common on the road for the next 35-40 years. The only way that's not the case is if autonomous vehicles get developed and the operation/ownership of a used vehicle exceeds the on-demand use of an autonomous vehicle. The price per mile would probably have to be less than $.20 for that to be the case.

hph6203 said:

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Poor people can't buy new EVs, they can't buy new hybrids, they can't buy new diesel, they can't buy new gas. Poor people do not and will never buy new cars. They can't afford used EVs, because there isn't a robust enough market for them, because the EVs even remotely worth owning are almost all less than 5 years old, and the vast majority of them are not even through their 3-year lease terms. There is very little used EV inventory and what is there is being gobbled up by individuals that want a new EV, but don't want to wait.

EVs, up until recently, have all been built to be higher trim models with additional features, which drive up the price of the car in an effort to boost margins so that companies can recoup their investment into new production facilities that are markedly different in manufacturing processes than their gas counterparts. They're investing billions in new manufacturing plants, they have to get their higher-margin vehicles out first in order to offset those costs. Eventually, companies will start making the low-trim Toyota Corollas, Rangers and XLTs etc., but it won't be the first models they make. You are not making a like-for-like comparison when you compare a Tesla to something like a low-trim Camry.

Know how you know an EV is cheaper to own/operate than a comparable combustion vehicle? Hertz recently acknowledged that fact after building out their fleet of Tesla rentals, stating that the operating and maintenance costs are 50-60% lower than their combustion counterparts, and by virtue of those cost savings they actually reported higher earnings.


Again, in markets that have lower average incomes EVs are selling for lower average prices. In China, BYD is selling a boatload of their Seal model that starts at $33,000 and has a 340 mile range. EVs are not expensive because the base technology is expensive, they're expensive because companies are trying to build as much profitability into them as they can because they cannot produce them at mass scales like they can with combustion vehicles currently. There is not enough battery production presently to meet EV demand, so they have to triage their production to the higher margin models.


If Tesla were selling their base Model 3 at industry average margins they'd be selling it for ~$35,000.

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Another thing they'll have to do is add some other types of vehicles...

Of the top 25 selling vehicles in the US, only 5 are cars. The others are trucks, SUVs, and crossovers. Because that's what the public in general wants...

And not that godawful truck thing that Tesla put out...

But, again...EVs are cool. I don't want one but whatever. I don't like cars. Especially smaller cars.

hph6203 said:

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Accurate. ICE are going to be fairly common on the road for the next 35-40 years. The only way that's not the case is if autonomous vehicles get developed and the operation/ownership of a used vehicle exceeds the on-demand use of an autonomous vehicle. The price per mile would probably have to be less than $.20 for that to be the case.

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See...this is what a lot of y'all don't seem to understand. When YOU figure out the cost of the EV, you factor in the long term costs. The VAST MAJORITY of buyers are only looking at what they can afford TODAY. They're not even thinking about future costs.

I disagree. From what I've seen is that poor people are more than fine taking out a 10% auto loan for a new Escalade that costs more than their house.

Ag with kids said:

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hph6203 said:

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Poor people can't buy new EVs, they can't buy new hybrids, they can't buy new diesel, they can't buy new gas. Poor people do not and will never buy new cars. They can't afford used EVs, because there isn't a robust enough market for them, because the EVs even remotely worth owning are almost all less than 5 years old, and the vast majority of them are not even through their 3-year lease terms. There is very little used EV inventory and what is there is being gobbled up by individuals that want a new EV, but don't want to wait.

EVs, up until recently, have all been built to be higher trim models with additional features, which drive up the price of the car in an effort to boost margins so that companies can recoup their investment into new production facilities that are markedly different in manufacturing processes than their gas counterparts. They're investing billions in new manufacturing plants, they have to get their higher-margin vehicles out first in order to offset those costs. Eventually, companies will start making the low-trim Toyota Corollas, Rangers and XLTs etc., but it won't be the first models they make. You are not making a like-for-like comparison when you compare a Tesla to something like a low-trim Camry.

Know how you know an EV is cheaper to own/operate than a comparable combustion vehicle? Hertz recently acknowledged that fact after building out their fleet of Tesla rentals, stating that the operating and maintenance costs are 50-60% lower than their combustion counterparts, and by virtue of those cost savings they actually reported higher earnings.


Again, in markets that have lower average incomes EVs are selling for lower average prices. In China, BYD is selling a boatload of their Seal model that starts at $33,000 and has a 340 mile range. EVs are not expensive because the base technology is expensive, they're expensive because companies are trying to build as much profitability into them as they can because they cannot produce them at mass scales like they can with combustion vehicles currently. There is not enough battery production presently to meet EV demand, so they have to triage their production to the higher margin models.


If Tesla were selling their base Model 3 at industry average margins they'd be selling it for ~$35,000.

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Another thing they'll have to do is add some other types of vehicles...

Of the top 25 selling vehicles in the US, only 5 are cars. The others are trucks, SUVs, and crossovers. Because that's what the public in general wants...

And not that godawful truck thing that Tesla put out...

But, again...EVs are cool. I don't want one but whatever. I don't like cars. Especially smaller cars.

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The Y is a 7 seat crossover. The X is even bigger.

which is the best hybrid vehicle where you don't have to charge but still get savings on fuel?

wouldn't that be a nice compromise position?

Teslag said:

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fka ftc said:

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Teslag said:

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Old McDonald said:

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fka ftc said:

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Where did this idea that EVs save money come from?

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charging at home is generally cheaper than paying for fuel is the idea

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Our Y Performance is far cheaper to own and operate than comparable vehicles we considered. That's not really up for debate.

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I am pretty sure any conclusion you reach in life and post on this board is up for debate. What is not up for debate is your terrible track record with certain positions you take on issues.

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Solid contribution with hard hitting analysis.

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Spot on

The Porsche 918 was one of the best hybrid vehicles ever produced, using electric motors to quick spool the turbos

Teslag said:

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I disagree. From what I've seen is that poor people are more than fine taking out a 10% auto loan for a new Escalade that costs more than their house.

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And the cost of fuel and maintenance has ZERO input into their poor decision.

But, I know a lot of poor people who drive cheap cars because that's all they could afford at the time - and again - fuel and maintenance was not in that decision.